• Seymour: quite the statesman

    From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 7 07:25:04 2025
    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.


    --
    Crash McBash

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Crash on Thu Feb 6 19:37:44 2025
    Crash <[email protected]d> wrote:
    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.


    --
    Crash McBash
    Yes I agree. I have never supported ACT and Seymour has not impressed me in the past but that is changing.
    I think some of the TPM driven greedy racists are beginning to panic, their nonsense is becoming clearer by the day.
    The damage they have done, however, will take decades to repair.

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 7 02:12:56 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them
    express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things
    that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different
    ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of what the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking of any terms of any contract.
    Do please show otherwise.

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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 7 14:56:57 2025
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them
    express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things
    that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different
    ways.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 7 15:51:39 2025
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things
    that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different
    ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you thinking?

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking of >any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament
    change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori.
    That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.

    Do please show otherwise.

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 7 06:04:34 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things
    that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote again. What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder.

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking of >>any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament
    change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori.
    That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the contrary.

    Do please show otherwise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Tony on Fri Feb 7 07:03:54 2025
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote again. What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder.

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori.
    That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.




    Do please show otherwise.


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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Gordon on Fri Feb 7 07:48:00 2025
    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>>>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking >>>>of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori.
    That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says >that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy racists just made that up.




    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 8 10:31:06 2025
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>>>>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking >>>>>of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says >>that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te
    Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the
    Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you
    claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?





    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Gordon on Sat Feb 8 10:26:38 2025
    On 7 Feb 2025 07:03:54 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>>>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori.
    That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the contrary.
    The idiot that claims it is OK to change a contract without the
    agreement of the other party to the contract should justify that lie .
    . .

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says >that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Nobody claims that, as the Treaty does not use the term co-governance.

    The Treaty does however grant sovereignty to Maori over their land. A
    way of Maori to work with the government for common interest has been
    to arrange co-governance arrangements - from memory the National
    Government while Chris Finlayson was Treaty Minister made a number of
    such arrangements to reach agreement between Maori and the Crown in
    accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi


    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 7 23:54:24 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 7 Feb 2025 07:03:54 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples of >>>>>what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the breaking >>>>>of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>contrary.
    The idiot that claims it is OK to change a contract without the
    agreement of the other party to the contract should justify that lie .
    Who are you spewing at now?
    . .

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says >>that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Nobody claims that, as the Treaty does not use the term co-governance.

    The Treaty does however grant sovereignty to Maori over their land.
    Nope.
    A
    way of Maori to work with the government for common interest has been
    to arrange co-governance arrangements - from memory the National
    Government while Chris Finlayson was Treaty Minister made a number of
    such arrangements to reach agreement between Maori and the Crown in >accordance with Te Tiriti o Waitangi
    Nope.


    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 7 23:55:44 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples >>>>>>of
    what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the >>>>>>breaking
    of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>>contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says >>>that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >>racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te
    Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the
    Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you >claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?
    No I am stating that you are.
    There have been no co-governance agreements approved by any National government., That is you lying.




    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 8 16:36:24 2025
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 23:55:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples >>>>>>>of
    what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder. >>>>>>
    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the >>>>>>>breaking
    of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>>>contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty says
    that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >>>racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te
    Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the >>Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you >>claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?
    No I am stating that you are.
    There have been no co-governance agreements approved by any National >government., That is you lying.

    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2016/0129/latest/DLM6830851.html

    Now you will probably identify that the term "co-governance" was not
    used in that Bill, but first read clauses 19 to 22, and then look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-governance#:~:text=The%20Human%20Rights%20Commission%20has,include%20the%20co%2Dmanagement%20of

    which provides the common expression used to cover such arrangements.

    For other examples, that wiki article includes:
    "Notable co-governance arrangements for resource management include
    the Waikato River Authority, the Tupuna Maunga o Tamaki Makaurau
    Authority managing the Auckland volcanic field, the Te Waihora
    Co-Governance Agreement governing Lake Ellesmere in Canterbury, the
    Rotorua Te Arawa Lakes Strategy Group, Tauranga's Nga Poutiriao o
    Mauao, the Maungatautari Ecological Island Trust in Waikato, the Ngati
    Whatua Orakei Reserves Board, the Parakai Recreation Reserve Board,
    Ngai Tuhoe and the Department of Conservation's shared management of
    Te Urewera's forests and lakes, and the Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River settlement).[2][5][9]"



    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 8 06:17:12 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 23:55:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have >>>>>>>>>>ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples >>>>>>>>of
    what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>>>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder.

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the >>>>>>>>breaking
    of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>>>>contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty >>>>>says
    that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >>>>racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te >>>Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the >>>Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you >>>claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?
    No I am stating that you are.
    There have been no co-governance agreements approved by any National >>government., That is you lying.

    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2016/0129/latest/DLM6830851.html

    Now you will probably identify that the term "co-governance" was not
    used in that Bill, but first read clauses 19 to 22, and then look at >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-governance#:~:text=The%20Human%20Rights%20Commission%20has,include%20the%20co%2Dmanagement%20of

    which provides the common expression used to cover such arrangements.
    No. what you have provided was co-management.

    For other examples, that wiki article includes:
    "Notable co-governance arrangements for resource management include
    the Waikato River Authority, the Tupuna Maunga o Tamaki Makaurau
    Authority managing the Auckland volcanic field, the Te Waihora
    Co-Governance Agreement governing Lake Ellesmere in Canterbury, the
    Rotorua Te Arawa Lakes Strategy Group, Tauranga's Nga Poutiriao o
    Mauao, the Maungatautari Ecological Island Trust in Waikato, the Ngati
    Whatua Orakei Reserves Board, the Parakai Recreation Reserve Board,
    Ngai Tuhoe and the Department of Conservation's shared management of
    Te Urewera's forests and lakes, and the Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River >settlement).[2][5][9]"
    All co-management.
    The difference between governance and management, as I have patiently explained to you more than once in the past, is profound.



    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 8 21:14:43 2025
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 14:56:57 +1300, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the
    Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad.

    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . .

    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them
    express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things
    that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different
    ways.

    None of which typically quote the actual text on the bill as evidence
    to support their contentions.

    I am not interested in Bill submissions, unless they specifically cite
    actual text in the bill that they object to.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 8 20:51:35 2025
    On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 06:17:12 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 23:55:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad. >>>>>>>>>>
    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them >>>>>>>>>>express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back >>>>>>>>>>to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of examples
    of
    what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>>>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>>>>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try harder.

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the >>>>>>>>>breaking
    of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>>>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>>>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>>>>>contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty >>>>>>says
    that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >>>>>racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te >>>>Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the >>>>Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you >>>>claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?
    No I am stating that you are.
    There have been no co-governance agreements approved by any National >>>government., That is you lying.
    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2016/0129/latest/DLM6830851.html

    Now you will probably identify that the term "co-governance" was not
    used in that Bill, but first read clauses 19 to 22, and then look at >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-governance#:~:text=The%20Human%20Rights%20Commission%20has,include%20the%20co%2Dmanagement%20of

    which provides the common expression used to cover such arrangements.
    No. what you have provided was co-management.

    For other examples, that wiki article includes:
    "Notable co-governance arrangements for resource management include
    the Waikato River Authority, the Tupuna Maunga o Tamaki Makaurau
    Authority managing the Auckland volcanic field, the Te Waihora >>Co-Governance Agreement governing Lake Ellesmere in Canterbury, the
    Rotorua Te Arawa Lakes Strategy Group, Tauranga's Nga Poutiriao o
    Mauao, the Maungatautari Ecological Island Trust in Waikato, the Ngati >>Whatua Orakei Reserves Board, the Parakai Recreation Reserve Board,
    Ngai Tuhoe and the Department of Conservation's shared management of
    Te Urewera's forests and lakes, and the Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River >>settlement).[2][5][9]"
    All co-management.
    The difference between governance and management, as I have patiently explained
    to you more than once in the past, is profound.

    Indeed it is, but in your haste to find fault you have missed quite a
    bit of the material I referred to above - for example:
    "In 2008, the Waikato-Tainui tribe (iwi) and the New Zealand
    Government reached a settlement over the tribe's claim to the Waikato
    river. This settlement was reviewed and out of that came the
    Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Act 2010,
    which established the Waikato River Authority as part of a
    co-governance and co-management framework between the Crown and five
    local iwi (Tainui, Te Arawa, Ngati Tuwharetoa, Ngati Raukawa, and
    Maniapoto). Reflecting the Authority's co-governance structure, its
    ten-member board consists of five tribal members and five Crown
    members (including one regional council member and one territorial
    authority member).[3][11][12] The board operate under consensus
    decision-making and their vision and strategy is long-term, further
    than a political cycle, to restore and protect the health of the river
    for generations to come.[3]"

    And in relation to the Whanganui River arrangements, you have missed
    the difference between the body set up by Clauses 18 and 19, and
    confused them with the body set up through Clauses 29 and 30.
    and specifically in relation to

    To summarise, Tony, you are wrong, but I guess your contempt for any
    opinions other than your own act as a shield against the world beyond
    your keyboard . . .




    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 8 19:07:43 2025
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 8 Feb 2025 06:17:12 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 23:55:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 07:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2025-02-07, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 02:12:56 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>>>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 07 Feb 2025 07:25:04 +1300, Crash <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    https://tinyurl.com/mpjmfpne

    Generally I consider ACT to be a sideshow but the reaction to the >>>>>>>>>>>>Treaty Principles Bill has got my attention because no opponents >>>>>>>>>>>>have
    ever been able to cite what wording in the bill is so bad. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Well you won't find any opponents anywhere near "The Centrist" . . . >>>>>>>>>>>
    Just listen to submissions on the Bill - about three quarters of them
    express very clear objections to the Bill, pointing out many things >>>>>>>>>>>that are wrong with it. Most of those things that are wrong stem back
    to it effectively breaking the terms of a contract in many different >>>>>>>>>>>ways.
    Absolute nonsense. If you are so sure then provide a couple of >>>>>>>>>>examples
    of
    what
    the bill says is a problem for anyone.
    The Bill does not give any such examples Tony - what on earth were you >>>>>>>>>thinking?
    Sorry for your lack of intellect. I suggest that you read what I wrote >>>>>>>>again.
    What does the bill provide that causes any body a problem? Do try >>>>>>>>harder.

    Do tell.
    As for a contract. there is nothing in the bill that suggests the >>>>>>>>>>breaking
    of
    any terms of any contract.
    Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a contract - the bill seeks to have parliament >>>>>>>>>change the provisions of that contract without agreement from Maori. >>>>>>>>>That is contrary to the terms of the Treaty.
    That is a lie. The bill does no such thing. Provide evidence to the >>>>>>>>contrary.

    The "Evidence" is in the (Maori) Left wingers mind set, that the treaty >>>>>>>says
    that Maori are entitles to co-governance with the Crown.
    Well, it doesn't. And therein lies the issue - TPM, and the other greedy >>>>>>racists just made that up.

    You are an idiot, Tony. Co-governance arrangements were made before Te >>>>>Pati Maori existed - through arrangements agreed between Maori and the >>>>>Crown during parliamentary terms of both Labour and National. Are you >>>>>claiming that Chris Finlayson for example is a greedy racist?
    No I am stating that you are.
    There have been no co-governance agreements approved by any National >>>>government., That is you lying.
    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2016/0129/latest/DLM6830851.html

    Now you will probably identify that the term "co-governance" was not
    used in that Bill, but first read clauses 19 to 22, and then look at >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-governance#:~:text=The%20Human%20Rights%20Commission%20has,include%20the%20co%2Dmanagement%20of

    which provides the common expression used to cover such arrangements.
    No. what you have provided was co-management.

    For other examples, that wiki article includes:
    "Notable co-governance arrangements for resource management include
    the Waikato River Authority, the Tupuna Maunga o Tamaki Makaurau >>>Authority managing the Auckland volcanic field, the Te Waihora >>>Co-Governance Agreement governing Lake Ellesmere in Canterbury, the >>>Rotorua Te Arawa Lakes Strategy Group, Tauranga's Nga Poutiriao o
    Mauao, the Maungatautari Ecological Island Trust in Waikato, the Ngati >>>Whatua Orakei Reserves Board, the Parakai Recreation Reserve Board,
    Ngai Tuhoe and the Department of Conservation's shared management of
    Te Urewera's forests and lakes, and the Te Awa Tupua (Whanganui River >>>settlement).[2][5][9]"
    All co-management.
    The difference between governance and management, as I have patiently >>explained
    to you more than once in the past, is profound.

    Indeed it is, <abuse gone> you have missed quite a
    bit of the material I referred to above - for example:
    "In 2008, the Waikato-Tainui tribe (iwi) and the New Zealand
    Government reached a settlement over the tribe's claim to the Waikato
    river. This settlement was reviewed and out of that came the
    Waikato-Tainui Raupatu Claims (Waikato River) Settlement Act 2010,
    which established the Waikato River Authority as part of a
    co-governance and co-management framework between the Crown and five
    local iwi (Tainui, Te Arawa, Ngati Tuwharetoa, Ngati Raukawa, and
    Maniapoto). Reflecting the Authority's co-governance structure, its >ten-member board consists of five tribal members and five Crown
    members (including one regional council member and one territorial
    authority member).[3][11][12] The board operate under consensus >decision-making and their vision and strategy is long-term, further
    than a political cycle, to restore and protect the health of the river
    for generations to come.[3]"

    And in relation to the Whanganui River arrangements, you have missed
    the difference between the body set up by Clauses 18 and 19, and
    confused them with the body set up through Clauses 29 and 30.
    and specifically in relation to
    Abject nonsense. There is no co-governance in this country, there never has been and you do not even begin to understand what the phrase means. You are wrong and you are lying.

    Abuse gone




    Do please show otherwise.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)