• Why a past tory Ministr will vote Labour at the UK election

    From Rich80105@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 14:50:43 2024
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 22 04:08:19 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote: >https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.
    No there is not you fool.
    The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur - all trash.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 22 23:05:08 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote: >>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.
    No there is not you fool.
    The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right Tur >- all trash.

    You are off topic, Tony. This article is effectively a statement by a
    past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
    has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
    change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
    Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an
    editorial.

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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 22 20:41:18 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.
    No there is not you fool.
    The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right >>Tur
    - all trash.

    You are off topic, Tony.
    Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.
    This article is effectively a statement by a
    past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
    has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
    change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New
    Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an >editorial.
    Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just like you.
    The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be deceived by it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 23 10:29:38 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 20:41:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.
    No there is not you fool.
    The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right >>>Tur
    - all trash.

    You are off topic, Tony.
    Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.
    This article is effectively a statement by a
    past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
    has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
    change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New >>Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an >>editorial.
    Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just like >you.
    The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be >deceived by it.

    So either you have read it, and do not understand that what affects
    one of our major trading partners can also affect us, or you have not
    read the article and are just mouthing off . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 22 23:02:50 2024
    On 2024-06-22, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.

    The article reinforces the idea that Labour/Greens/the left are wanting to
    control the narrative and thus the people.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 23 01:06:31 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 20:41:18 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 04:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/tory-minister-need-labour-government

    There is much in that article that is also relevant to New Zealand.
    No there is not you fool.
    The Guardian is as trustworthy a source of news as the Spinoff or No Right >>>>Tur
    - all trash.

    You are off topic, Tony.
    Nonsense - I am absolutely on topic discussing your biased post.
    This article is effectively a statement by a
    past Conservative politician talking about an issue that he believes
    has been so badly handled by his own party that he will vote for a
    change of government. The issues he addresses have relevance for New >>>Zealand. All the Guardian is doing is publishing it - it is not an >>>editorial.
    Irrelevant, everything the Guardian publishes is politically driven, just >>like
    you.
    The article is completely irrelevant to this country and only you would be >>deceived by it.

    So either you have read it, and do not understand that what affects
    one of our major trading partners can also affect us, or you have not
    read the article and are just mouthing off . . .
    Nope, as usual you got it wrong.
    I read it, and decided it had nothing to do with NZ and is therefore a waste of bandwidth just like you.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 3 23:56:22 2024
    Then again, it could be 1992 all over again.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 6 07:46:24 2024
    So, Starmer has won. Do you think this will make a difference to anything important?

    As I understand, Labour has a commitment in its Constitution to
    recognizing the state of Palestine. But of course there is no deadline to
    this.

    Note that Jeremy Corbyn kept his seat, after being pushed out of the
    Labour Party over his stance on Israel. And I think there are a few other ex-Labour Independents like him as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jul 6 22:07:49 2024
    On Sat, 6 Jul 2024 07:46:24 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    So, Starmer has won. Do you think this will make a difference to anything >important?

    As I understand, Labour has a commitment in its Constitution to
    recognizing the state of Palestine. But of course there is no deadline to >this.

    Note that Jeremy Corbyn kept his seat, after being pushed out of the
    Labour Party over his stance on Israel. And I think there are a few other >ex-Labour Independents like him as well.

    Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
    think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel. Labour got
    only about 2% more votes than the previous election, and many of those
    were in Scotland - a first past the post system can give a big swing
    on small changes in voting. The biggest percentage of registered
    voters was those that did not vote. Good to see their Green Party
    getting more seats.

    The large change in seats for a small change in voting does illustrate
    that First Past the Post is not a good basis for electing a government
    that truly represents the wishes of a majority of voters.

    A big issue for the UK is whether they re-join the EU - while a
    majority think it was the wrong decision, reversing may be quite
    difficult, but it may well be one of the few things that may turn
    around the decline of the country from 14 years of the blundering Conservatives.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 8 00:46:47 2024
    On Sat, 06 Jul 2024 22:07:49 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
    think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel.

    Did you notice that Starmer’s majority shrank a bit compared to the
    previous election? Some credit must go to Andrew Feinstein, who ran
    against him.

    Feinstein served in the South African Parliament in the ANC alongside
    Nelson Mandela.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 8 07:45:17 2024
    On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 19:36:04 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at times demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech some time
    ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law ...

    Will that include supporting the operations of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court, I wonder?

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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Jul 8 19:36:04 2024
    On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 00:46:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sat, 06 Jul 2024 22:07:49 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    Corbyn and those few others may have taken a few votes off Labour; I
    think there was more at stake than his stance on Israel.

    Did you notice that Starmer�s majority shrank a bit compared to the
    previous election? Some credit must go to Andrew Feinstein, who ran
    against him.

    Feinstein served in the South African Parliament in the ANC alongside
    Nelson Mandela.

    We have had major figures in an incoming government lose percentages
    in their electorates, that is because each electorate is not
    representative of the country. Of much interest is the reality that
    the huge change in number of representatives results has happened
    while overall support has not moved significantly - Labour in the UK
    took only about 2% more votes, and most of those were in Scotland.
    There is talk of moving to a more democratic system - by both Tories
    and Labour, but what that may look like is anyone's guess - the
    systems used by France and New Zealand have some advantages, but also
    dangers to .

    However we now move to what the new Government is doing, and there
    Labour does seem to have made at least some preparations, which may
    well affect how future Prime Ministers lead their Government: https://youtu.be/yqw7VFklpL8?si=yZTaJ9U6LtpZozee

    Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very
    reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at
    times demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech
    some time ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWzLZ-UZ4AY&ab_channel=PoliticsJOE

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  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Jul 8 21:24:32 2024
    On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 07:45:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 19:36:04 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    Keir Starmer is certainly different, and has often appeared to be very
    reserved and even timid in putting forward policies, but he did at times
    demonstrate that he had strong moral principles - this speech some time
    ago shows that he will follow and respect the rule of law ...

    Will that include supporting the operations of the International Court of >Justice and the International Criminal Court, I wonder?

    I suspect it will; apparently the UK Labour party had a policy to
    recognise Palestine, but as for some of the new governments promises
    here, there was no timetable. We may see some different arguments put
    to the International Courts from the UK, but the real impediment to international action is probably the UN vetoes.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 21 03:57:41 2024
    On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 21:24:32 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    ... the real impediment to international action is probably the UN
    vetoes.

    Unfortunately, yes.

    I think it would help if the threshold was raised so it needed *two*
    permanent members to vote no to kill a Security Council resolution. You
    could still have Russia and China ganging up, or the US and UK, but it
    would get rid in one fell swoop of all those cases where everybody else
    voted yes, but a single nation (e.g. Russia or the US) voted no.

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