• Re: Common sense rules okay!

    From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Gordon on Thu Jun 13 22:05:15 2024
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of >if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 13 09:17:14 2024
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Jun 13 20:49:41 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it. >>
    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of >>if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Gordon on Thu Jun 13 20:50:45 2024
    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of >if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.
    Yes - a promise made before the election now being carried out as required by the electors. Nice to see democracy in action.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Jun 13 22:13:52 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 20:49:41 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it. >>>>
    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with. >>>>
    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >>>>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >>>>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >>>>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >>>>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules >>>>they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >>>>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking >>>>is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >>>>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >>>raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>>authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >>correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Can you identify anywhere that the previous government overruled local >authorities?
    Yes and you know it. they mandated 24 hour 30kmph outside some schools.
    That is all. The rest of your post is rhetoric.
    They did work with local authorities with the aim of
    establishing entities that could undertake the work needed to ensure
    we have adequate clean water at the cheapest possible price - NACT1st
    have told Councils that they will get no help from this Government and
    are on their own - paying higher interest rates to overseas banks than
    would have been arranged under government borrowing. What percentage
    increase in rates will your Council impose to achieve that, Tony? And
    which banks are going to benefit from the higher interest rates?

    The reality is that local Councils have limits on borrowing, and
    borrowing by local authorities is more expensive that borrowing by
    central government - but what particularly appeals to National, ACT
    and NZ First, and their advisers the NZ Initiative and the NZ Taxpayer
    Union, is to move costs from income tax to rates - that is a political
    move to flatten taxes to the benefit of the wealthy backers of those
    parties and organisations. They know that some Councils cannot fix
    their water problems - they do not have enough ratepayers to pay
    enough, so they have mooted lowering water standards - of course only
    on a temporary basis, but certainly for as long as they can stay in >government.
    Off topic.

    Abuse gone.

    The underlying policy in that move towards rates paying for more is of
    course that it flattens the tax base - better to get people to pay
    through rates and rents than raising more through income tax . . .

    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.
    Sarcastic abuse gone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 14 10:13:39 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it. >>
    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 09:29:35 2024
    On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 20:49:41 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it. >>>
    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >>>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >>>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >>>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >>>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >>>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of >>>if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >>>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >>raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Can you identify anywhere that the previous government overruled local authorities? They did work with local authorities with the aim of
    establishing entities that could undertake the work needed to ensure
    we have adequate clean water at the cheapest possible price - NACT1st
    have told Councils that they will get no help from this Government and
    are on their own - paying higher interest rates to overseas banks than
    would have been arranged under government borrowing. What percentage
    increase in rates will your Council impose to achieve that, Tony? And
    which banks are going to benefit from the higher interest rates?

    The reality is that local Councils have limits on borrowing, and
    borrowing by local authorities is more expensive that borrowing by
    central government - but what particularly appeals to National, ACT
    and NZ First, and their advisers the NZ Initiative and the NZ Taxpayer
    Union, is to move costs from income tax to rates - that is a political
    move to flatten taxes to the benefit of the wealthy backers of those
    parties and organisations. They know that some Councils cannot fix
    their water problems - they do not have enough ratepayers to pay
    enough, so they have mooted lowering water standards - of course only
    on a temporary basis, but certainly for as long as they can stay in government. You never really cared about a little bit of feces in
    your water, did you Tony?

    The underlying policy in that move towards rates paying for more is of
    course that it flattens the tax base - better to get people to pay
    through rates and rents than raising more through income tax . . .

    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.
    Thank you for the compliment, Tony I am glad you appreciate my posts,
    but would that you understood them . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Thu Jun 13 22:22:39 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:


    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with. >> >>
    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >> >>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >> >>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case >> >>of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >> >>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate some changes, and that is what I said.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 10:18:57 2024
    On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 20:50:45 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it. >>
    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket >>rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for >>the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case of >>if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.
    Yes - a promise made before the election now being carried out as required by >the electors. Nice to see democracy in action.

    Actually, nice to see a return to democratic principle.


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 14 11:53:22 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:


    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with. >> >>
    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >> >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >> >>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up >> >>times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate some changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 12:26:01 2024
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:53:22 +1200, David Goodwin
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:


    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >> >> >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >> >> >>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking >> >> >>is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free >> >> >to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >> >> >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.

    Worth reading this: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/Setting-of-Speed-Limits-Rule-2022-as-at-15-December-2023.pdf
    and https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/Setting-of-Speed-Limits-Amendment-2023.pdf
    and for earlier rules: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/?category=59&subcategory=87&term=

    I know that in my local area the speed limit was reduced by the local
    council to 30kph from 50kph, for a local shopping area and primary
    school, a distance of about 500 metres. There was consultation with householders in the local area before a decision was made; the lower
    speed limit has assisted local shops as it is now easier to park and
    to get out of a park, it is safer for pedestrians to cross the road,
    and it is safer for school children. There have been fewer accidents
    and the new limit has been welcomed by residents. Local businesses
    would not want the government to remove the current limit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Fri Jun 14 01:55:54 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:



    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed >> >> >>it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard >> >> >>for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just >> >> >>make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >> >> >>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking >> >> >>is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free >> >> >to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >> >> >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate >>some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting speed limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 01:52:33 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:53:22 +1200, David Goodwin
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:



    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have
    nailed it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard >>> >> >>for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely, >>> >> >>they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules >>> >> >>they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >>> >> >>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking >>> >> >>is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a >>> >> >>case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced. >>> >> >>
    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick >>> >> >>up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in. >>> >> >>

    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free >>> >> >to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >>> >> >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to >>> >> >the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools, >>> >> >but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He >>> >> >can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >>> >> correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >>> >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons >>> >to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate >>>some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >>limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >>Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >>choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.

    Worth reading this: >https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/Setting-of-Speed-Limits-Rule-2022-as-at-15-December-2023.pdf
    and >https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/Setting-of-Speed-Limits-Amendment-2023.pdf
    and for earlier rules: >https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/?category=59&subcategory=87&term=

    I know that in my local area the speed limit was reduced by the local
    council to 30kph from 50kph, for a local shopping area and primary
    school, a distance of about 500 metres. There was consultation with >householders in the local area before a decision was made; the lower
    speed limit has assisted local shops as it is now easier to park and
    to get out of a park, it is safer for pedestrians to cross the road,
    and it is safer for school children. There have been fewer accidents
    and the new limit has been welcomed by residents. Local businesses
    would not want the government to remove the current limit.
    Firstly one example is trivial and unhelpful. Secondly I don't think the government is going to make local councils remove a restriction, I didn't say they would and you are just being deliberately obtuse in suggesting that they are. What they are doing is removing the compulsory rules set by the previous government. All else is rhetoric and you know it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 14 15:17:59 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:



    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules >> >> >>they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >> >> >>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible lawmaking >> >> >>is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a >> >> >>case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced. >> >> >>
    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in. >> >> >>

    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free >> >> >to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are >> >> >raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to >> >> >the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools, >> >> >but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He >> >> >can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >> >> correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >> >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons >> >to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate >>some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Fri Jun 14 06:42:05 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations >> >> >> >>with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't >> >> >> >>just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules >> >> >> >>they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said." >> >> >> >>
    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the >> >> >> >>habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a >> >> >> >>case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced. >> >> >> >>
    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in. >> >> >> >>

    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to >> >> >> >the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools, >> >> >> >but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He >> >> >> >can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >> >> >> correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >> >> >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons >> >> >to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >> >> >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate >> >>some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same >> thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is idiotic, I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a couple of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. Nonsense. That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 22:29:42 2024
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 06:42:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >>> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations >>> >> >> >>with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >>> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't >>> >> >> >>just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said." >>> >> >> >>
    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >>> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >>> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >>> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools, >>> >> >> >but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is >>> >> >> correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones >>> >> >(residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >>> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >>> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >>> >> >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate >>> >>some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >>> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >>> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same >>> thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >>100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >>NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >>Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    Prove it . . .


    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >>speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Jun 14 20:50:44 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 06:42:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >> >




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >>>> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations >>>> >> >> >>with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >>>> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't >>>> >> >> >>just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and >>>> >> >> >>safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow >>>> >> >> >>rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said." >>>> >> >> >>
    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once >>>> >> >> >>the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is >>>> >> >> >>a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >>>> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not >>>> >> >> >>in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >>>> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are >>>> >> >> >free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >>>> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits >>>> >> >> >are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left >>>> >> >> >to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>>> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that >>>> >> >> >He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right," >>>> >> >> >Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government >>>> >> >>is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the >>>> >> >previous government was pushing it simply because there are good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >>>> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >>>> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >>>> >> >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >>>> >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >>>> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >>>> >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >>>> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>>>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the >>>>same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing >>>>speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>>reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>>conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe >>>then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >>>100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road >>>is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >>>NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method >>>NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >>>Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied >>>with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a >>couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    Prove it . . .
    No need. You know I am correct.
    Labour told councils to reduce speed limits at schools. Period.


    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >>>speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 15 08:57:10 2024
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 20:50:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 06:42:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> >> >




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >>>>> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >>>>> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a >>>>> >> >> >>disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and >>>>> >> >> >>safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow >>>>> >> >> >>rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once >>>>> >> >> >>the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is
    a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >>>>> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not >>>>> >> >> >>in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >>>>> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are >>>>> >> >> >free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a >>>>> >> >> >decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >>>>> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits >>>>> >> >> >are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left >>>>> >> >> >to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>>>> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that >>>>> >> >> >He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right," >>>>> >> >> >Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government >>>>> >> >>is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various >>>>> >> >zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the >>>>> >> >previous government was pushing it simply because there are good >>>>> >> >reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >>>>> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >>>>> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would >>>>> >appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >>>>> >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed >>>>> >limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in >>>>> >some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government. >>>>> >Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >>>>> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >>>>> >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >>>>> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to >>>>> >mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>>>>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the >>>>>same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing >>>>>speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>>>reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>>>conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the >>>>speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe >>>>then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >>>>100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road >>>>is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower >>>>speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >>>>NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method >>>>NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >>>>Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied >>>>with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >>>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a >>>couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    Prove it . . .
    No need. You know I am correct.
    Labour told councils to reduce speed limits at schools. Period.
    Caught you at a difficult time in the month have we Tony?
    And yes you are wrong again, on a number of issues.



    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >>>>speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put >>>>motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians, >>>>cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with >>>>other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the >>>>safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 15 10:03:38 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations >> >> >> >>with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't >> >> >> >>just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said." >> >> >> >>
    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >> >> >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit- proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Crash@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 15 09:45:04 2024
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 22:29:42 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 06:42:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >> >



    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >>>> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have conversations >>>> >> >> >>with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >>>> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington didn't >>>> >> >> >>just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and >>>> >> >> >>safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said." >>>> >> >> >>
    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >>>> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >>>> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >>>> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >>>> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right," >>>> >> >> >Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the >>>> >> >previous government was pushing it simply because there are good reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >>>> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >>>> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite a >>>> >> >while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >>>> >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >>>> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >>>> >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >>>> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >>>>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>>reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>>conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe >>>then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >>>100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road >>>is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >>>NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method >>>NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >>>Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied >>>with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    Prove it . . .

    Governments of both stripes use Land Transport Rules to direct Road
    Control Authorities (includes every council) in setting speed limits.

    This is an example of a rule: https://nzta.govt.nz/resources/rules/setting-of-speed-limits-2022/



    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >>>speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?


    --
    Crash McBash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Jun 15 01:25:40 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 20:50:44 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri, 14 Jun 2024 06:42:05 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>>>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    Prove it . . .
    No need. You know I am correct.
    Labour told councils to reduce speed limits at schools. Period.
    Caught you at a difficult time in the month have we Tony?
    You disgusting little fuck - piss off.
    And yes you are wrong again, on a number of issues.
    Not even one - you are lying.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Sat Jun 15 01:22:56 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >> >says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:





    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have >> >> >> >> >>nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of >> >> >> >> >>blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once >> >> >> >> >>the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This >> >> >> >> >>is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and >> >> >> >> >>pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not >> >> >> >> >>in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in >> >> >> >> >other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are >> >> >> >> >free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many >> >> >> >> >areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits >> >> >> >> >are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left >> >> >> >> >to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local >> >> >> >> >authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that >> >> >> >> >He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right," >> >> >> >> >Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government >> >> >> >>is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton >> >> >> >started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't >> >> >> >remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite >> >> >> >a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the >> >> >Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains >> >> >to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting >> >>speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a >>couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April: >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit- >proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the council that the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future government policy. That is not a mandate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 15 13:47:37 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >




    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and >> >> >> >> >>safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow >> >> >> >> >>rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." This >> >> >> >> >>is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a >> >> >> >> >decision and we have already decided what those will be." In many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right," >> >> >> >> >Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various >> >> >> >zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the >> >> >> >previous government was pushing it simply because there are good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >> >> >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in >> >> >some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government. >> >> >Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >> >> >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the >> >>same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road >> >is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >> >NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a >>couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April: >https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit- >proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the council that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted
    to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said.

    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for
    the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It
    remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this
    or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made
    by local authorities on their own are in scope too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Sat Jun 15 06:52:06 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >





    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT
    have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach >> >> >> >> >> >>of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a >> >> >> >> >> >>disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and >> >> >> >> >> >>safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow >> >> >> >> >> >>rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour
    said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and
    once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation."
    This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is >> >> >> >> >> >>not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen >> >> >> >> >> >in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you >> >> >> >> >> >are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a >> >> >> >> >> >decision and we have already decided what those will be." In
    many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before
    limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be >> >> >> >> >> >left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override
    local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" >> >> >> >> >> >that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various >> >> >> >> >zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the >> >> >> >> >previous government was pushing it simply because there are good >> >> >> >> >reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government
    Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I
    don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like
    quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would >> >> >> >appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed >> >> >> >limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed >> >> >> >limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in >> >> >> >some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government. >> >> >> >Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and >> >> >> >the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's >> >> >> >choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it
    remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to >> >> >> >mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the >> >> >>same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road >> >> >is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed >> >> >NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method >> >> >NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is
    idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a >> >>couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example.
    Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >> >> >speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the council >>that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future
    government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted
    to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said.

    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for
    the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this
    or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made
    by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 15 19:11:36 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:






    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT >> >> >> >> >> >>have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in a >> >> >> >> >> >>disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington >> >> >> >> >> >>didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour >> >> >> >> >> >>said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and >> >> >> >> >> >>once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible >> >> >> >> >> >>lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." >> >> >> >> >> >>This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things >> >> >> >> >> >>balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro off >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school is >> >> >> >> >> >>not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - "you >> >> >> >> >> >are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In >> >> >> >> >> >many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before >> >> >> >> >> >limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should be >> >> >> >> >> >left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of >> >> >> >> >> >schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override >> >> >> >> >> >local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour "knows" >> >> >> >> >> >that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are good >> >> >> >> >reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government
    Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I >> >> >> >> >don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like >> >> >> >> >quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did >> >> >> >>mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it would >> >> >> >appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower speed >> >> >> >limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it
    remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat to >> >> >> >mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing >> >> >>speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe >> >> >then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >> >> >100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the method >> >> >NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >> >> >Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied >> >> >with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >> >>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >> >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise the >> >> >speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the council >>that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future
    government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted
    to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said.

    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for
    the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer >money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this
    or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made
    by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating
    a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a
    different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same - to prevent Tauranga from lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere
    with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have
    been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to
    warn about.

    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Sat Jun 15 20:38:38 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]>
    wrote:







    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-
    reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT >> >> >> >> >> >> >>have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted
    approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in >> >> >> >> >> >> >>a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington >> >> >> >> >> >> >>didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly >> >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to
    follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour >> >> >> >> >> >> >>said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and >> >> >> >> >> >> >>once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible >> >> >> >> >> >> >>lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." >> >> >> >> >> >> >>This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things >> >> >> >> >> >> >>balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro
    off
    and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school >> >> >> >> >> >> >>is
    not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have
    seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions -
    "you
    are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make >> >> >> >> >> >> >a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In >> >> >> >> >> >> >many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before >> >> >> >> >> >> >limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should >> >> >> >> >> >> >be
    left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of >> >> >> >> >> >> >schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override >> >> >> >> >> >> >local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour
    "knows"
    that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office -
    "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in
    various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before >> >> >> >> >> >the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are
    good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government
    Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I >> >> >> >> >> >don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like >> >> >> >> >> >quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did >> >> >> >> >>mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it
    would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower
    speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower
    speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds >> >> >> >> >in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous
    government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this >> >> >> >> >and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local
    authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it
    remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat >> >> >> >> >to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing >> >> >> >>the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing >> >> >> >>speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some
    reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical
    conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the >> >> >> >speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe >> >> >> >then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a >> >> >> >100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that >> >> >> >road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower >> >> >> >speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour
    directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the
    method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the >> >> >> >Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied >> >> >> >with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is >> >> >>idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists >> >> >>a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >> >> >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise
    the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with >> >> >> >other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the
    safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the
    council
    that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future
    government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted
    to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said.

    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for
    the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It
    remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this
    or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made
    by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating
    a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a
    different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same
    No David they are not. I will not debate English with you since clearly you and I were differently educated. But on this matter you are incorrect.
    - to prevent Tauranga from
    lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere
    with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have
    been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to
    warn about.
    See above.

    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.
    You have provided no evidence of that, you might be correct but I have seen nothing to support it. And if that does happen, then perhaps we should be open-minded enough to evaluate it when we hear what it is. What do you think?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 16 11:16:49 2024
    On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 20:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >wrote:







    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-
    reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT
    have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted
    approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour
    said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and
    once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation." >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>off
    and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>is
    not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have >>> >> >> >> >> >> >seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - >>> >> >> >> >> >> >"you
    are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make
    a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In
    many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before >>> >> >> >> >> >> >limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should >>> >> >> >> >> >> >be
    left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of >>> >> >> >> >> >> >schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override >>> >> >> >> >> >> >local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour
    "knows"
    that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office -
    "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in
    various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before >>> >> >> >> >> >the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are >>> >> >> >> >> >good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government >>> >> >> >> >> >Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I
    don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like >>> >> >> >> >> >quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it
    would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower >>> >> >> >> >speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower
    speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds >>> >> >> >> >in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous
    government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this >>> >> >> >> >and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local
    authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it >>> >> >> >> >remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat >>> >> >> >> >to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing >>> >> >> >>the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>> >> >> >reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>> >> >> >conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the >>> >> >> >speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that >>> >> >> >road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower >>> >> >> >speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour
    directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the
    method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is
    idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists
    a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example. >>> >> >>Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise >>> >> >> >the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with >>> >> >> >other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the >>> >> >> >safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the
    council
    that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future >>> >> government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted >>> >to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said. >>> >
    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for >>> >the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >>> >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this >>> >or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made >>> >by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating
    a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a
    different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same
    No David they are not. I will not debate English with you since clearly you and
    I were differently educated. But on this matter you are incorrect.

    Now you are being insulting to the Minister. Simeon Brown was clearly indicating that the government will if necessary legislate for the
    decisions that it wants, and that taking heed of his wishes would save
    money in having to reverse any changes made now.

    - to prevent Tauranga from
    lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere >>with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have
    been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to
    warn about.
    See above.

    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.
    You have provided no evidence of that, you might be correct but I have seen >nothing to support it. And if that does happen, then perhaps we should be >open-minded enough to evaluate it when we hear what it is. What do you think?

    The statements from the Minister demonstrate very clearly the
    decisions that he intends to have made - whether you like that or not.
    There are a number of reasons why legislation will take time to put
    through, but it is clear that he is committed to his position on these
    speed limits - why are you implying that he was not being honest?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 16 00:19:16 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sat, 15 Jun 2024 20:38:38 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >wrote:









    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>ACT
    have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>in
    a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from
    Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted
    quickly
    and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David
    Seymour
    said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense.
    Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public
    consultation."
    This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep
    things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>off
    and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >>is
    not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >"you
    are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >make
    a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >In
    many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe
    before
    limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >be
    left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to
    override
    local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour
    "knows"
    that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >"Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this >>>> >> >> >> >> >>government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in >>>> >> >> >> >> >various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own
    before
    the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are >>>> >> >> >> >> >good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government >>>> >> >> >> >> >Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. >>>> >> >> >> >> >I
    don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels >>>> >> >> >> >> >like
    quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government >>>> >> >> >> >>did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it >>>> >> >> >> >would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower >>>> >> >> >> >speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower >>>> >> >> >> >speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower
    speeds
    in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous
    government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this >>>> >> >> >> >and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local
    authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it >>>> >> >> >> >remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat >>>> >> >> >> >to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government >>>> >> >> >>mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government
    doing
    the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or
    reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >>>> >> >> >reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >>>> >> >> >conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the >>>> >> >> >speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is
    unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving >>>> >> >> >a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that >>>> >> >> >road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower >>>> >> >> >speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour >>>> >> >> >directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the >>>> >> >> >method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on >>>> >> >> >the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're
    dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That >>>> >> >>is
    idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still
    exists
    a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for
    example.
    Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise >>>> >> >> >the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put >>>> >> >> >motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians, >>>> >> >> >cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with >>>> >> >> >other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the >>>> >> >> >safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit- >>>> >> >proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the
    council
    that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future >>>> >> government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted >>>> >to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said. >>>> >
    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for >>>> >the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year. >>>> >
    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes >>>> >now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer >>>> >money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >>>> >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this >>>> >or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made >>>> >by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating >>>a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a >>>different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same
    No David they are not. I will not debate English with you since clearly you >>and
    I were differently educated. But on this matter you are incorrect.

    Now you are being insulting to the Minister. Simeon Brown was clearly >indicating that the government will if necessary legislate for the
    decisions that it wants, and that taking heed of his wishes would save
    money in having to reverse any changes made now.
    Sarcasm is all you have - you pathetic idiot.

    - to prevent Tauranga from
    lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere >>>with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have >>>been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to >>>warn about.
    See above.

    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.
    You have provided no evidence of that, you might be correct but I have seen >>nothing to support it. And if that does happen, then perhaps we should be >>open-minded enough to evaluate it when we hear what it is. What do you think?

    The statements from the Minister demonstrate very clearly the
    decisions that he intends to have made - whether you like that or not.
    There are a number of reasons why legislation will take time to put
    through, but it is clear that he is committed to his position on these
    speed limits - why are you implying that he was not being honest?
    Your English comprehension is infantile - time you stopped trying to understand those who are better equpiied than yourself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 14:36:40 2024
    In article <part1of1.1.W$TO$[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> >wrote:







    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-
    reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of ACT
    have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted
    approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase in
    a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted quickly
    and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to >> >> >> >> >> >> >>follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David Seymour
    said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense and
    once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense. Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public consultation."
    This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro >> >> >> >> >> >> >>off
    and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days school >> >> >> >> >> >> >>is
    not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have >> >> >> >> >> >> >seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - >> >> >> >> >> >> >"you
    are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to make
    a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." In
    many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe before
    limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries should >> >> >> >> >> >> >be
    left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to override
    local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour
    "knows"
    that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office -
    "Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in
    various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own before
    the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are >> >> >> >> >> >good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government >> >> >> >> >> >Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to 40km/h. I
    don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels like
    quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it
    would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower >> >> >> >> >speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower
    speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower speeds
    in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous
    government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support this >> >> >> >> >and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local
    authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it >> >> >> >> >remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their threat >> >> >> >> >to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government doing
    the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >> >> >> >reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >> >> >> >conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason the >> >> >> >speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse, giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe that >> >> >> >road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with lower >> >> >> >speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour
    directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the
    method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That is
    idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still exists
    a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for example.
    Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise >> >> >> >the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians,
    cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along with >> >> >> >other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the >> >> >> >safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the
    council
    that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future >> >> government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted >> >to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said. >> >
    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for >> >the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >> >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this >> >or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made >> >by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating
    a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a
    different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same
    No David they are not. I will not debate English with you since clearly you and
    I were differently educated. But on this matter you are incorrect.

    Understanding of English does not come into this. The key word in the
    sentence which you appear to have missed is: "intent". The *reason* the
    warning was given. Simeon Brown was trying to achieve some purpose by
    issuing a warning. Given what he was warning might happen, what purpose
    do you suppose he was trying to achieve?

    - to prevent Tauranga from
    lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere >with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have
    been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to
    warn about.
    See above.

    See above.


    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.
    You have provided no evidence of that, you might be correct but I have seen nothing to support it. And if that does happen, then perhaps we should be open-minded enough to evaluate it when we hear what it is. What do you think?

    I think the words of Simeon Brown as quoted previously indicate clearly
    enough what he wishes to happen, and it seems safe enough to assume that
    if he wished to have no effect at all he would have said nothing.

    But yes, it remains to be seen if he will (or even can) force the issue.
    For all we know he was bluffing and what has been said and done already
    is the end of the matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Sun Jun 16 04:43:29 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <part1of1.1.W$TO$[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >> >> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 13 Jun 2024 09:17:14 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >wrote:









    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350310208/speed-limits-120kmh-proposed-government-looks-scrap-other-reductions

    In this instance the Minster of transport and Leader of >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>ACT
    have
    nailed
    it.

    They are saying what I am hearing from people I have
    conversations
    with.

    They are consulting with the people. The non targeted
    approach
    of
    blanket
    rules from the Labour Government are allows an increase >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>in
    a
    disregard
    for
    the law.

    "Blanket restrictions forced on communities from
    Wellington
    didn't
    just
    make it harder for people to get where they wanted
    quickly
    and
    safely,
    they drained the joy from life as people were forced to >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>follow
    rules
    they knew made no sense," Regulation Minister David
    Seymour
    said."

    "Worse still, people ignore rules that don't make sense >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>and
    once
    the
    habit forms, they ignore rules that do make sense.
    Sensible
    lawmaking
    is important for respecting the rule of law."

    "The speed limit changes are out for public
    consultation."
    This
    is a
    case
    of
    if one agrees one should make a submission, to keep
    things
    balanced.

    Woke nil, common sense 1.

    It is a good idea to slow down around schools during dro >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>off
    and
    pick up
    times but no need for the rest of the day and days
    school
    is
    not
    in.


    It remains to be seen whether consultation is, as we have >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >seen
    in
    other areas, just a way of "freedumb-washing" opinions - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >"you
    are
    free
    to tell us anything you like, but we ultimately have to >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >make
    a
    decision and we have already decided what those will be." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >In
    many
    areas local people would prefer the roads to be safe
    before
    limits
    are
    raised. Decisions within local authority boundaries
    should
    be
    left
    to
    the local Council - that deals adequately with the issue >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >of
    schools,
    but ActNat1st have shown that they are prepared to
    override
    local
    authorities which is of course whenever David Seymour
    "knows"
    that
    He
    can make better decisions from his Wellington Office - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >"Right,"
    Gordon?
    Bullshit.
    It was Labour that overruled local authorities and this
    government
    is
    correcting that piece of foolishness.
    Your rhetoric knows no bounds.

    Some local authorities were setting lower speed limits in
    various
    zones
    (residential streets, CBD, etc) completely on their own
    before
    the
    previous government was pushing it simply because there are >> >> >> >> >> >> >good
    reasons
    to do this.

    For example, in 2012 under the previous National government >> >> >> >> >> >> >Hamilton
    started lowering speed limits in residential areas to
    40km/h. I
    don't
    remember when speeds were reduced in the CBD but it feels
    like
    quite
    a
    while ago too.
    OK but that does not refute my argument. The last government >> >> >> >> >> >>did
    mandate
    some
    changes, and that is what I said.

    Going back to what Rich was saying, that you responded to, it >> >> >> >> >> >would
    appear that National intends to undo those locally chosen lower >> >> >> >> >> >speed
    limits in addition to the previous governments mandated lower >> >> >> >> >> >speed
    limits.
    Does it? I have not seen proof of that.

    As a recent example, Tauranga City Council wishes to lower
    speeds
    in
    some areas - a local choice not mandated by the previous
    government.
    Simeon Brown came out saying the Government did not support
    this
    and
    the
    Governments new speed limit rules could reverse the local
    authority's
    choice. I believe Tauranga intends to push on regardless and it >> >> >> >> >> >remains
    to be seen if the Government will follow through on their
    threat
    to
    mandate changes.
    Maybe so, however you appear to be opposed to this government
    mandatting
    speed
    limits so presumably you were opposed to the last government
    doing
    the
    same
    thing (regardless of whether the mandate was increasing or
    reducing
    speeds).

    I'm not against safer speed limits being mandated if there is some >> >> >> >> >reasonable method for doing so that takes road design and typical >> >> >> >> >conditions into account. Safety is, after all, the whole reason
    the
    speed limits are there. If the speed limit on a given roads is
    unsafe
    then it kind of defeats the whole point of having it. Worse,
    giving a
    100km/h speed limit to some road might lead drivers to believe
    that
    road
    is safer than it really is.

    If labour was just throwing darts at a map to pick roads with
    lower
    speed limits, then it is reasonable to undo that. But if Labour
    directed
    NZTA to ensure speed limits on their roads were safe and if the
    method
    NZTA used to determine this was reasonable, then I think it is on >> >> >> >> >the
    Government to dedicate money to road upgrades if they're
    dissatisfied
    with the new speed limits.
    Labour mandated speed limits 24 hours per day at some schools. That >> >> >> >>is
    idiotic,
    I know two schools that were in 80k limits and that limit still
    exists
    a
    couple
    of hundred meters either side, at 4 oclock in the orning for
    example.
    Nonsense.
    That resulted directly from the Labour mandates.

    I would have a problem with Simeon Brown forcing Tauranga to raise >> >> >> >> >the
    speed limit in the CBD because this action does nothing but put
    motorists who wish to drive fast above the lives of pedestrians, >> >> >> >> >cyclists and even other motorists. Making such a threat, along
    with
    other actions he has taken, makes it clear he cares little for the >> >> >> >> >safety of those outside of cars
    I don't believe he has said that. Do you have a cite?

    Sure! Here is an article from April:
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/514231/tauranga-s-speed-limit-
    proposal-met-with-warning-from-minister
    So he did not say he would force anything, only that he warned the
    council
    that
    the idea might not be a good one and might not be in line with future >> >> >> government policy. That is not a mandate.

    "The government's view is that speed limit reductions should be targeted >> >> >to high crash areas. As outlined in March, the new speed rule will
    reverse blanket speed reductions unless it is unsafe to do so," he said. >> >> >
    "I encourage Tauranga City Council to consider the policy direction for >> >> >the new rule that I expect to be in place before the end of the year.

    "This will prevent ratepayer money being spent on speed limit changes
    now that may need to be changed under the new rule," he said.

    So, Simeon Brown was warning Tauranga that if they lowered the speed
    limit now, the Governments new policy may force Tauranga to undo it
    later making the effort to lower it now a waste of time and ratepayer
    money.

    He didn't specifically say this was a certainty though - just sowing
    doubt, trying to discourage Tauranga from doing what it wants to do. It >> >> >remains to be seen if the Government really will force them to undo this >> >> >or not. But this makes it clear the Government isn't just targeting
    lower speed limits mandated by the previous government - decisions made >> >> >by local authorities on their own are in scope too.
    Exactly. An instruction and a warning are not the same thing.

    He is warning that he may give an instruction later. He is not mandating
    a different speed limit, but he is warning that he may mandate a
    different speed limit in the future.

    Instruction or warning the intent is the same
    No David they are not. I will not debate English with you since clearly you >>and
    I were differently educated. But on this matter you are incorrect.

    Understanding of English does not come into this. The key word in the >sentence which you appear to have missed is: "intent". The *reason* the >warning was given. Simeon Brown was trying to achieve some purpose by
    issuing a warning. Given what he was warning might happen, what purpose
    do you suppose he was trying to achieve?
    The key word in your sentence is "might. Might happen is not will happen. I rest my case.

    - to prevent Tauranga from
    lowering the speed limit. If there was no intent or desire to interfere
    with the speed limit decisions of a local authority, there would have
    been no need to issue the warning as there would have been nothing to
    warn about.
    See above.

    See above.


    He wishes to go beyond simply rolling back the changes made by Labour,
    he just hasn't openly committed to it yet. So the only difference
    between a warning and an instruction here is Tauranga is free to take
    the risk and hope he is bluffing.
    You have provided no evidence of that, you might be correct but I have seen >> nothing to support it. And if that does happen, then perhaps we should be
    open-minded enough to evaluate it when we hear what it is. What do you think?

    I think the words of Simeon Brown as quoted previously indicate clearly >enough what he wishes to happen, and it seems safe enough to assume that
    if he wished to have no effect at all he would have said nothing.
    Wishing is not doing. My English is very precise.

    But yes, it remains to be seen if he will (or even can) force the issue.
    For all we know he was bluffing and what has been said and done already
    is the end of the matter.
    So you agree that what he said was not an instruction. Good, we agree then.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)