• Re: Web Of Chaos

    From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun May 19 09:09:53 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    (paranoid rubbish) ...
    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the >Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how >falsehoods start and spread.

    And you believe their nonsense, of course.

    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Your nonsense will continue until either
    (1) there is a weeks-long electricity blackout, thanks to those who
    share your mindless politics, or
    (2) you get struck down by something caused by the Covid vaccine.

    Be glad I responded. Really, I can't be bothered with you trolls
    anymore. Apathy has become a virtue in the 2020's.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 19 08:49:31 2024
    Just been watching the doco “Web Of Chaos” on TV1, looking at all the misinformation (accidental/careless factual errors) and disinformation (deliberate fabrication and lying) happening online, and its relevance to
    NZ.

    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the
    Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how falsehoods start and spread. As you can imagine, spending several hours a
    day, every day, in the sewer can take its toll; there is a need for a
    thorough cleaning, both mental and physical, afterwards. And both undergo regular counselling, as well.

    There is a feeling that NZ has not been as badly contaminated by the misinformation/disinformation crap as some other places. But equally, it
    is also less well protected against the infection. One has to be careful, though, not to jump to the conclusion that there is some giant global conspiracy to take over everybody’s minds, that might be using NZ in some ways as a test laboratory (as one of the interviewees said); yes, there
    are many groups of conspirators around the world, based in authoritarian regimes or countries prone to them, that might be operating along roughly parallel lines.

    But that does not mean they are actually coordinated; each still has their
    own agenda, after all. I think the main connection between them is mainly
    down to the commonality in their most receptive victims/audience: those
    who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are also prone
    (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to believing in
    others.

    As per Hanlon’s Razor, a lot of what goes on online is not about malice,
    but about just plain stupidity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Sun May 19 21:07:48 2024
    [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    (paranoid rubbish) ...
    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the >>Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how >>falsehoods start and spread.

    And you believe their nonsense, of course.

    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Your nonsense will continue until either
    (1) there is a weeks-long electricity blackout, thanks to those who
    share your mindless politics, or
    (2) you get struck down by something caused by the Covid vaccine.

    Be glad I responded. Really, I can't be bothered with you trolls
    anymore. Apathy has become a virtue in the 2020's.
    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information. They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to Tony on Sun May 19 21:42:32 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are >told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information. >They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least >he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of
    mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your
    own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving
    the planet"!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Mon May 20 10:29:01 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are >>told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information. >>They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of
    mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your
    own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving
    the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Have a look at:

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-installed-solar-power-capacity-rises-552-2023-2024-01-26/

    https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/020824-infographic-china-solar-capacity-coal-electricity-renewable-energy-hydro-wind#:~:text=Infographic%3A%20China's%20solar%20capacity%20growth%20i

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-clean-energy-was-top-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth-in-2023/

    https://www.ecowatch.com/china-new-solar-capacity-2023.html

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html

    https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/chinas-solar-power-capacity-soared-55-2023-and-wind-capacity-21.html

    But yes they do still use coal:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China

    https://www.worldometers.info/coal/china-coal/

    https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants

    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/sinopec-forecasts-chinas-coal-consumption-peak-around-2025-2023-12-28/

    So what are the chances that Shane Jones will enable New Zealand to
    import a few shiploads of coal at world peak prices?

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar
    panels . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Sun May 19 23:11:27 2024
    [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy ... (etc)

    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.
    Not to mention the damage to the planet of the manufacture, servicing and disposal of the components. Nearly always ignored.

    Gas, coal, hydro, geothermal, nuclear -- all these do not require
    backup. They are honest reliable power generators.

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >>panels . . .

    For you Greenies, slave labour is slave labour until it ain't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun May 19 23:08:21 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy ... (etc)

    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    Gas, coal, hydro, geothermal, nuclear -- all these do not require
    backup. They are honest reliable power generators.

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar
    panels . . .

    For you Greenies, slave labour is slave labour until it ain't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun May 19 23:08:53 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they >>>are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of >>>information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at >>>least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your
    own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving
    the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Have a look at:

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-installed-solar-power-capacity-rises-552-2023-2024-01-26/

    https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/020824-infographic-china-solar-capacity-coal-electricity-renewable-energy-hydro-wind#:~:text=Infographic%3A%20China's%20solar%20capacity%20growth%20i

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-clean-energy-was-top-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth-in-2023/

    https://www.ecowatch.com/china-new-solar-capacity-2023.html

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html

    https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/chinas-solar-power-capacity-soared-55-2023-and-wind-capacity-21.html

    But yes they do still use coal:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China

    https://www.worldometers.info/coal/china-coal/

    https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants

    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/sinopec-forecasts-chinas-coal-consumption-peak-around-2025-2023-12-28/

    So what are the chances that Shane Jones will enable New Zealand to
    import a few shiploads of coal at world peak prices?

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar
    panels . . .
    Any chance that you could actually address the subject? Thought not!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 11:43:38 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:08:53 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they >>>>are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of >>>>information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at >>>>least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your >>>own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving >>>the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Have a look at:
    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-installed-solar-power-capacity-rises-552-2023-2024-01-26/
    https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/020824-infographic-china-solar-capacity-coal-electricity-renewable-energy-hydro-wind#:~:text=Infographic%3A%20China's%20solar%20capacity%20growth%20i
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-clean-energy-was-top-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth-in-2023/

    https://www.ecowatch.com/china-new-solar-capacity-2023.html

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy
    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html >> >>https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/chinas-solar-power-capacity-soared-55-2023-and-wind-capacity-21.html

    But yes they do still use coal:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China

    https://www.worldometers.info/coal/china-coal/

    https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/sinopec-forecasts-chinas-coal-consumption-peak-around-2025-2023-12-28/

    So what are the chances that Shane Jones will enable New Zealand to
    import a few shiploads of coal at world peak prices?

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >>panels . . .
    Any chance that you could actually address the subject? Thought not!

    To use part of a post from above, you appear to be a perfect example
    of the gullible fools who believe what they are told and never dare
    (or care enough) to look at other sources of information.

    The question is, who do you listen to get so much wrong so often,
    Tony?

    Do keep on topic . . . and see if you can justify the assertion in (5)
    and (6) above . . .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Sun May 19 23:44:18 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Tony on Mon May 20 02:40:17 2024
    On 2024-05-19, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy ... (etc)

    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are >>intent on deceiving us.
    Not to mention the damage to the planet of the manufacture, servicing and disposal of the components. Nearly always ignored.

    Hydro, flood parts of the river and alters it flow
    Nuclear has nasty long life waste products
    Gas has drilling
    Geothermal has drilling

    Solar has panel manufacture and disposal issues. Farms (solar) damage faming production and need laots of water to keep the panel clean.
    Wind has the same disposal issues. Off shore wind farms upset the whales navigation. (the sounds get into the water)
    On shore bats and birds get killed by the blades.

    It is complex and there are always trade offs.




    Gas, coal, hydro, geothermal, nuclear -- all these do not require
    backup. They are honest reliable power generators.

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >>>panels . . .

    For you Greenies, slave labour is slave labour until it ain't.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Mon May 20 02:29:58 2024
    On 2024-05-19, Willy Nilly <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy ... (etc)

    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    Gas, coal, hydro, geothermal, nuclear -- all these do not require
    backup. They are honest reliable power generators.

    Hydro has come within recent memory being darn close too failing to deliver.



    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >>panels . . .

    For you Greenies, slave labour is slave labour until it ain't.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon May 20 02:46:29 2024
    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    A quiet reflection on the Covid-19 narrative demostrates this point.

    More importantly it is the underlying arguement that these "conspiracy theories" need to be shut down, gaslight and etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 04:41:31 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:08:53 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they >>>>>are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of >>>>>information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at >>>>>least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>>>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your >>>>own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>>>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving >>>>the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Have a look at:
    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-installed-solar-power-capacity-rises-552-2023-2024-01-26/
    https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/energy-transition/020824-infographic-china-solar-capacity-coal-electricity-renewable-energy-hydro-wind#:~:text=Infographic%3A%20China's%20solar%20capacity%20growth%20i
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-clean-energy-was-top-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth-in-2023/

    https://www.ecowatch.com/china-new-solar-capacity-2023.html

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy
    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/china-solar-energy-exports.html >>> >>>https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/chinas-solar-power-capacity-soared-55-2023-and-wind-capacity-21.html

    But yes they do still use coal: >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China

    https://www.worldometers.info/coal/china-coal/

    https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants
    https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/sinopec-forecasts-chinas-coal-consumption-peak-around-2025-2023-12-28/

    So what are the chances that Shane Jones will enable New Zealand to >>>import a few shiploads of coal at world peak prices?

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >>>panels . . .
    Any chance that you could actually address the subject? Thought not!

    To use part of a post from above, you appear to be a perfect example
    of the gullible fools who believe what they are told and never dare
    (or care enough) to look at other sources of information.
    Thank you for using my words - I know how hard it is for you to generate any of your own.
    However, your target is misplaced. You are wrong.

    The question is, who do you listen to get so much wrong so often,
    Tony?

    Do keep on topic . . . and see if you can justify the assertion in (5)
    and (6) above . . .
    Do keep up - I did not make those assertions. why don't you address the author of those. Oh, sorry - you don't do that do you? No!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon May 20 04:38:28 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.
    You are using faulty logic. But that is not a first. The question is whether a theory is in fact a conspiracy or not. All else is rhetoric. People like you believe that if the government says it is so, then it is so, and therefore all else is conspiracy. The trouble is, you are actually the conspiracy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 17:28:33 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will
    "continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 20 17:57:12 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 10:29:01 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your
    own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving
    the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Why does "main-stream" support matter?

    What makes them so credible?

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 17:37:58 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:07:48 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    (paranoid rubbish) ...
    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the >>>Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how >>>falsehoods start and spread.

    And you believe their nonsense, of course.

    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Your nonsense will continue until either
    (1) there is a weeks-long electricity blackout, thanks to those who
    share your mindless politics, or
    (2) you get struck down by something caused by the Covid vaccine.

    Be glad I responded. Really, I can't be bothered with you trolls
    anymore. Apathy has become a virtue in the 2020's.
    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are >told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information. >They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least >he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    Here's a song he reminds me of lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BquNW53RqL0

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 17:55:56 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 08:49:31 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    Just been watching the doco �Web Of Chaos� on TV1, looking at all the >misinformation (accidental/careless factual errors) and disinformation >(deliberate fabrication and lying) happening online, and its relevance to
    NZ.

    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa)...

    Who's paying them?

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 19:26:11 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 04:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>believing in others.
    You are using faulty logic. But that is not a first. The question is whether a >theory is in fact a conspiracy or not. All else is rhetoric.
    People like you believe that if the government says it is so, then it is
    so, and therefore all else is conspiracy.
    Who are your referring to as "People like you"? Most people do not
    believe everything that the government says. Polling companies have in
    the past measured the extent that people do believe what the
    government says. Most people will compare what the government says
    with what other people say in relation to the same issues - for most
    issues there are "some people" that are better trusted than others.

    The trouble is, you are actually the conspiracy.
    Perhaps you should explain that - one person cannot be all the
    conspiracies that it is fairly well accepted have moved around the
    world in recent years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 19:34:21 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro ><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will
    "continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the
    statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was
    referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been
    assembled to give information advice - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was
    talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as
    number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a
    reference to that phrase being used?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 20 19:36:30 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:57:12 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 May 2024 10:29:01 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your >>>own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving >>>the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Why does "main-stream" support matter?

    What makes them so credible?

    Bill.

    Fair point, Bill - would "credible support" suit you better?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 20 21:30:12 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    On Mon, 20 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.

    https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy ... (etc)

    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many
    countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and
    sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    And its even possible to recycle the batteries at the end of their
    useful life just like lead-acid batteries are. Here is a video showing
    how one place does it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xrarUWVRQ

    Gas, coal, hydro, geothermal, nuclear -- all these do not require
    backup. They are honest reliable power generators.

    They all require backup. This is how the grid operates. No generator is
    100% reliable and the grid must always be able to fill demand at all
    times even if a generator suddenly and unexpectedly goes offline.

    Even if the entire grid was gas or coal there would still have to be a
    few hundred MW of generation sitting idle but ready to respond just in
    case something breaks.

    Perhaps New Zealand would be better off importing a shipload of solar >panels . . .

    For you Greenies, slave labour is slave labour until it ain't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 20 22:09:03 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways?
    Birds aren't real - they're all secret government drones built to spy on
    us? Climate change is a hoax pushed by what must be the largest cabal
    ever to have existed all to make money by encouraging us to buy less oil
    and gas not more? Chemtrails are actually a secret mind control and/or
    weather manipulation program by the US government? Some kid on 4chan was
    right about secret cannibal politicians who like pizza?

    A quiet reflection on the Covid-19 narrative demostrates this point.

    Ah yes, covid-19 is a secret... what? Whats the conspiracy here? Oh
    right, Bill gates and his 5G chips or something. I want a refund
    actually - this one didn't work. My 5G reception is no better than it
    was before.

    More importantly it is the underlying arguement that these "conspiracy theories" need to be shut down, gaslight and etc.

    These conspiracy theories are mostly all clearly absurd and easily
    disproven. The amazing thing is that people keep on falling for them. I
    assume at least part of it is intentional, or perhaps starts out that
    way. That it is more comforting to believe that mass shootings are
    actually staged using crisis actors rather than being a real thing with
    real dead people. And so people adopt this belief and double down on it
    when questioned or presented with clear evidence to the contrary.

    The problem is that belief in some conspiracies can cause harm. Either
    to the believers when they're sitting on a home made rocket to try and
    prove the earth is flat, or to other people when a believer shoots up a
    pizza restaurant or tries to bring down the power grid. Or they can just
    be a general nuisance - like taking over community meetings because
    having everything I need within 15 minutes walk is a secret government
    control thing or something else equally absurd.

    Not all conspiracy theories and conspiracy enthusiasts are harmless. I
    don't care about the harmless ones; people can believe the moon landings
    were faked all they like. But the harmful or disruptive ones are
    concerning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Mon May 20 22:42:44 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been >invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many >countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and
    sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the
    purpose. But you can't. They are too dear and if everybody tried to
    buy them, their price would skyrocket because of all the rare elements
    required to make them, limiting production. Also the insurance costs
    for them would be impossible because of the high likelihood of total
    immolation -- when one of the battery packs catches fire, the whole
    lot will go up in a record-setting conflagration.

    It ain't gonna happen. Fossil fuelds are at a record-high consumption nowadays, see: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/05/20/climate-change-reporters-call-the-end-of-coal-and-gas-in-the-middle-of-record-demand/

    ... and your "reasonable solution" of batteries is just another
    pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Tue May 21 11:31:36 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 22:42:44 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been >>invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many >>countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and >>sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the >purpose. But you can't. They are too dear and if everybody tried to
    buy them, their price would skyrocket because of all the rare elements >required to make them, limiting production. Also the insurance costs
    for them would be impossible because of the high likelihood of total >immolation -- when one of the battery packs catches fire, the whole
    lot will go up in a record-setting conflagration.

    It ain't gonna happen. Fossil fuelds are at a record-high consumption >nowadays, see: >https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/05/20/climate-change-reporters-call-the-end-of-coal-and-gas-in-the-middle-of-record-demand/

    ... and your "reasonable solution" of batteries is just another >pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart.

    Lake Onslow plans were for a water battery. In some other countries
    excess power is used to pump water upwards to keep a dam filled or to
    fill another dam as an energy storage battery.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 00:18:23 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR wrote:

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will
    "continue to be the single source of truth"?

    I never heard that report. Where did you get it?

    If you are referring to our country’s handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, remember that we continued to hear from several independent experts right through all the levels of lockdown. And they didn’t always agree with what the Government was doing.

    Compare that with the USA, where the Government did its best to muzzle the scientists who were pointing out that the right-wingers’ strategy to play down the seriousness of the issue wasn’t working.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Tue May 21 13:06:26 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 00:47:28 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Tue, 21 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    Lake Onslow plans were for a water battery. In some other countries
    excess power is used to pump water upwards to keep a dam filled or to
    fill another dam as an energy storage battery.

    Guess what, water evaporates. A truly pie-in-the-sky solution.

    Guess water evaporates in a cycle - once it falls to the ground some
    sinks into the earth, but water in rivers, and streams, and lakes, and
    the sea all have evaporation. The size of a storage pond makes
    insignificant difference to the amount of evaporation - I doubt it
    would be enough to notice any difference in rainfall . . .

    So try again, Willy Nilly.

    The real problem with our having to burn coal to ensure we have
    continuous electricity supply is that the system increases profit to
    the generators every time there is an emergency - some of them have
    been deferring new solar and wind production (which in some cases has
    resource consent) to keep the dividend gravy train going - don't
    expect the current government to do anything to reduce your
    electricity bill, Willy!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 00:47:28 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    Lake Onslow plans were for a water battery. In some other countries
    excess power is used to pump water upwards to keep a dam filled or to
    fill another dam as an energy storage battery.

    Guess what, water evaporates. A truly pie-in-the-sky solution.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 16:06:33 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been >invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many >countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and >sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the purpose. But you can't.

    Wikipedia lists at least 20 grid connected batteries of 100MW or greater
    - thats quite a few for something that can't be reasonably bought.

    They are too dear and if everybody tried to
    buy them, their price would skyrocket because of all the rare elements required to make them, limiting production.

    The elements are not so rare as to make the idea impractical, and
    various companies are working to reduce the need for these minerals or
    to better enable the recycling of these batteries reducing the need to
    extract them from the ground in such large quantities.

    Also the insurance costs
    for them would be impossible because of the high likelihood of total immolation -- when one of the battery packs catches fire, the whole
    lot will go up in a record-setting conflagration.

    You (or some website you read) seem to be greatly overestimating the
    likelihood of lithium-ion batteries catching fire or the industries
    inability to mitigate this risk.

    But there are alternative battery technologies that: have been around a
    long time, have zero fire risk and do not require any rare minerals. For example, this company has started selling nickel-hydrogen batteries for
    grid storage purposes: https://enervenue.com/

    It ain't gonna happen. Fossil fuelds are at a record-high consumption nowadays, see: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/05/20/climate-change-reporters-call-the-end-of-coal-and-gas-in-the-middle-of-record-demand/

    ... and your "reasonable solution" of batteries is just another pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Willy Nilly@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue May 21 04:58:29 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    But there are alternative battery technologies that: have been around a
    long time, have zero fire risk and do not require any rare minerals. For >example, this company has started selling nickel-hydrogen batteries for
    grid storage purposes: https://enervenue.com/

    That's an interesting site but "where's the beef"? Nickel-hydrogen
    batteries are very very expensive, right? To mass-produce them for
    grid backup is a whole different ballgame.

    Don't get me wrong, I would be delighted if battery solutions worked
    and were cost-effective. But I live in the real world.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Willy Nilly on Tue May 21 04:59:53 2024
    On 2024-05-20, Willy Nilly <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been >>invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many >>countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and >>sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the purpose. But you can't. They are too dear and if everybody tried to
    buy them, their price would skyrocket because of all the rare elements required to make them, limiting production. Also the insurance costs
    for them would be impossible because of the high likelihood of total immolation -- when one of the battery packs catches fire, the whole
    lot will go up in a record-setting conflagration.

    A couple of small points here:-

    1) For grid supply the size and weight of the battery is not important.
    2) Research is going on to find grid use batteries.

    The LiOn batteries are needed for vehicles as small space and "light" weight
    is demanded.

    https://clearpath.org/our-take/a-reversible-rust-battery-that-could-transform-energy-storage/

    The link above is one of may to the rust battery.

    so is this https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rust+battery+backup

    Not quite the style I have seen. Let Youtube suggest more

    The rust batteries are just one type of possible grid battery.



    It ain't gonna happen. Fossil fuelds are at a record-high consumption nowadays, see: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/05/20/climate-change-reporters-call-the-end-of-coal-and-gas-in-the-middle-of-record-demand/

    ... and your "reasonable solution" of batteries is just another pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Tony on Tue May 21 04:28:02 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 04:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony wrote:

    The trouble is, you are actually the conspiracy.

    Yes, I am part of the conspiracy. So is all of reality. Science and logic themselves are just part of the conspiracy against the ideology of the conspiracy-theory nutters, designed to make them look bad.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 07:19:27 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will >>"continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the
    statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was
    referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been
    assembled to give information advice

    Your memory is deliberately faulty - she was referring to the government. Her and her ministers.
    - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was
    talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as
    number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a
    reference to that phrase being used?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 07:23:31 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 04:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>believing in others.
    You are using faulty logic. But that is not a first. The question is whether >>a
    theory is in fact a conspiracy or not. All else is rhetoric.
    People like you believe that if the government says it is so, then it is >>so, and therefore all else is conspiracy.
    Who are your referring to as "People like you"?
    I was answering Lawrence. Is that a concept that is too complex for you?
    Most people do not
    believe everything that the government says. Polling companies have in
    the past measured the extent that people do believe what the
    government says. Most people will compare what the government says
    with what other people say in relation to the same issues - for most
    issues there are "some people" that are better trusted than others.

    The trouble is, you are actually the conspiracy.
    Perhaps you should explain that - one person cannot be all the
    conspiracies that it is fairly well accepted have moved around the
    world in recent years.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue May 21 07:20:59 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >> > also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are correct, I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start says it all.
    Birds aren't real - they're all secret government drones built to spy on
    us? Climate change is a hoax pushed by what must be the largest cabal
    ever to have existed all to make money by encouraging us to buy less oil
    and gas not more? Chemtrails are actually a secret mind control and/or >weather manipulation program by the US government? Some kid on 4chan was >right about secret cannibal politicians who like pizza?

    A quiet reflection on the Covid-19 narrative demostrates this point.

    Ah yes, covid-19 is a secret... what? Whats the conspiracy here? Oh
    right, Bill gates and his 5G chips or something. I want a refund
    actually - this one didn't work. My 5G reception is no better than it
    was before.

    More importantly it is the underlying arguement that these "conspiracy
    theories" need to be shut down, gaslight and etc.

    These conspiracy theories are mostly all clearly absurd and easily
    disproven. The amazing thing is that people keep on falling for them. I >assume at least part of it is intentional, or perhaps starts out that
    way. That it is more comforting to believe that mass shootings are
    actually staged using crisis actors rather than being a real thing with
    real dead people. And so people adopt this belief and double down on it
    when questioned or presented with clear evidence to the contrary.

    The problem is that belief in some conspiracies can cause harm. Either
    to the believers when they're sitting on a home made rocket to try and
    prove the earth is flat, or to other people when a believer shoots up a
    pizza restaurant or tries to bring down the power grid. Or they can just
    be a general nuisance - like taking over community meetings because
    having everything I need within 15 minutes walk is a secret government >control thing or something else equally absurd.

    Not all conspiracy theories and conspiracy enthusiasts are harmless. I
    don't care about the harmless ones; people can believe the moon landings
    were faked all they like. But the harmful or disruptive ones are
    concerning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 07:25:06 2024
    BR <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:07:48 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>(paranoid rubbish) ...
    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the >>>>Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how >>>>falsehoods start and spread.

    And you believe their nonsense, of course.

    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Your nonsense will continue until either
    (1) there is a weeks-long electricity blackout, thanks to those who
    share your mindless politics, or
    (2) you get struck down by something caused by the Covid vaccine.

    Be glad I responded. Really, I can't be bothered with you trolls >>>anymore. Apathy has become a virtue in the 2020's.
    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are >>told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information. >>They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at >>least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    Here's a song he reminds me of lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BquNW53RqL0

    Bill.

    Excellent - thanks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue May 21 07:18:03 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR wrote:

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will
    "continue to be the single source of truth"?

    I never heard that report. Where did you get it?
    Well, that is exactly what she said. Look it up.

    If you are referring to our country’s handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, >remember that we continued to hear from several independent experts right >through all the levels of lockdown. And they didn’t always agree with what >the Government was doing.

    Compare that with the USA, where the Government did its best to muzzle the >scientists who were pointing out that the right-wingers’ strategy to play >down the seriousness of the issue wasn’t working.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 07:28:15 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 00:47:28 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Tue, 21 May 2024, Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    Lake Onslow plans were for a water battery. In some other countries >>>excess power is used to pump water upwards to keep a dam filled or to >>>fill another dam as an energy storage battery.

    Guess what, water evaporates. A truly pie-in-the-sky solution.

    Guess water evaporates in a cycle - once it falls to the ground some
    sinks into the earth, but water in rivers, and streams, and lakes, and
    the sea all have evaporation. The size of a storage pond makes
    insignificant difference to the amount of evaporation - I doubt it
    would be enough to notice any difference in rainfall . . .

    So try again, Willy Nilly.

    The real problem with our having to burn coal to ensure we have
    continuous electricity supply is that the system increases profit to
    the generators every time there is an emergency - some of them have
    been deferring new solar and wind production (which in some cases has >resource consent) to keep the dividend gravy train going - don't
    expect the current government to do anything to reduce your
    electricity bill, Willy!
    There is no proof of that, yet you spew it out every so often with gleeful frothing at the mouth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue May 21 07:50:31 2024
    On 2024-05-21, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on
    the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must
    be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are
    intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been
    invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many
    countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and
    sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the
    purpose. But you can't.

    Wikipedia lists at least 20 grid connected batteries of 100MW or greater
    - thats quite a few for something that can't be reasonably bought.

    Batteries storage engery, so the size needs to be stated as such, ideally Joules. However, the Wh has taken over for common use.


    They are too dear and if everybody tried to
    buy them, their price would skyrocket because of all the rare elements
    required to make them, limiting production.

    The elements are not so rare as to make the idea impractical, and
    various companies are working to reduce the need for these minerals or
    to better enable the recycling of these batteries reducing the need to extract them from the ground in such large quantities.

    Also the insurance costs
    for them would be impossible because of the high likelihood of total
    immolation -- when one of the battery packs catches fire, the whole
    lot will go up in a record-setting conflagration.

    You (or some website you read) seem to be greatly overestimating the likelihood of lithium-ion batteries catching fire or the industries
    inability to mitigate this risk.

    But there are alternative battery technologies that: have been around a
    long time, have zero fire risk and do not require any rare minerals. For example, this company has started selling nickel-hydrogen batteries for
    grid storage purposes: https://enervenue.com/

    It ain't gonna happen. Fossil fuelds are at a record-high consumption
    nowadays, see:
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/05/20/climate-change-reporters-call-the-end-of-coal-and-gas-in-the-middle-of-record-demand/

    ... and your "reasonable solution" of batteries is just another
    pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 20:00:50 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 07:19:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>>>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will >>>"continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the
    statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was
    referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been >>assembled to give information advice

    Your memory is deliberately faulty - she was referring to the government. Her >and her ministers.

    No, you are yet again wrong. But I accept that you will claim that if
    is not fact but just your opinion . . .
    - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was >>talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as
    number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a
    reference to that phrase being used?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Tue May 21 07:22:10 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 04:38:28 -0000 (UTC), Tony wrote:

    The trouble is, you are actually the conspiracy.

    Yes, I am part of the conspiracy. So is all of reality. Science and logic >themselves are just part of the conspiracy against the ideology of the >conspiracy-theory nutters, designed to make them look bad.
    More gobbledygook from an expert.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 20:57:42 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-21, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    On Mon, 20 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    The big lie of wind & solar's "cheapness" is because they still
    require 100% backup from other generators for when the sun doesn't
    shine and the wind doesn't blow. Therefore they are piggy-backing on >> >> the others -- and the cost of maintaining that backup generation must >> >> be added to the wind & solar accounting, but never is by those who are >> >> intent on deceiving us.

    And a reasonable solution is batteries. They are a thing that have been >> >invented. There are companies that manufacture them. It is possible to
    buy them and connect them to the grid. Whats more, companies in many
    countries have in fact purchased batteries and connected them to the
    grid. They even make money doing this! They buy power when its cheap and >> >sell it back to the grid when power is expensive.

    This would be fine if they could be reasonably bought and used for the
    purpose. But you can't.

    Wikipedia lists at least 20 grid connected batteries of 100MW or greater
    - thats quite a few for something that can't be reasonably bought.

    Batteries storage engery, so the size needs to be stated as such, ideally Joules. However, the Wh has taken over for common use.

    As far as I can tell in the USA at least, and perhaps other places, the batteries are rated at some number of MW/GW for four hours. So I guess a
    100MW facility is assumed to be backed by at least 400MWh of batteries.

    Kind of weird, but I guess it fits with how power plants are rated - the maximum amount of power they can deliver to the grid for however long
    they're running.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 20:54:32 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    On Tue, 21 May 2024, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    But there are alternative battery technologies that: have been around a >long time, have zero fire risk and do not require any rare minerals. For >example, this company has started selling nickel-hydrogen batteries for >grid storage purposes: https://enervenue.com/

    That's an interesting site but "where's the beef"? Nickel-hydrogen
    batteries are very very expensive, right? To mass-produce them for
    grid backup is a whole different ballgame.

    They certainly used to be quite expensive which limited them to
    applications where cost didn't matter as much like spacecraft.

    It was only about 5 years ago that a cheaper catalyst was found which
    brings costs down substantially. Enervue, founded by the Stanford
    professor that discovered the cheaper catalyst, expects them to be
    cheaper than Li-Ion when manufactured at scale.

    From what I can find they were manufacturing about 100MWh of the things
    a year and were building a new "gigafactory" capable of making 20GWh of batteries per year which was expected to by the end of 2023. Presumably
    this factory is now close to opening if it isn't already open (I can't
    find any press releases saying its opened)

    Don't get me wrong, I would be delighted if battery solutions worked
    and were cost-effective. But I live in the real world.

    Battery solutions *currently* work. California apparently has something
    like 40GWh of batteries (10GW for 4 hours) on the grid which charge up
    from solar and wind power during the day and discharge during the
    evening peak reducing the need for gas and coal.

    And they're not only cost effective, they're profitable for the
    companies that own them. Which is the primary reason *why* they own
    them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 21:00:22 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start says it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 22:15:12 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 00:18:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR wrote:

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will
    "continue to be the single source of truth"?

    I never heard that report. Where did you get it?

    If you are referring to our country�s handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, >remember that we continued to hear from several independent experts right >through all the levels of lockdown. And they didn�t always agree with what >the Government was doing.

    Compare that with the USA, where the Government did its best to muzzle the >scientists who were pointing out that the right-wingers� strategy to play >down the seriousness of the issue wasn�t working.

    Many governments around the world, including the NZ government,
    removed the option for doctors to prescribe cheap generic drugs like
    ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine for the prevention and treatment of
    covid19 under penalty of de-registration.

    It has been about three decades since I read a book on how drugs are
    developed and marketed. There would be more computational chemistry
    involved these days I expect, but it is still largely a guessing game.

    Drug development would begin with semi-randomly synthesizing chemical
    compounds and testing them one by one. The vast majority of them would
    be rejected during the early stages of testing. Any that showed some
    promise would go on to animal testing. Most of these would fail also,
    and what was left would eventually proceed on to human trials. Very
    few of the initial compounds survive these stringent quality control
    measures. It takes about ten years from a drug's initial synthesis to
    it's clearance for medical use. For this the drug company is rewarded
    with exclusive rights to the drug for the next twenty years. The money
    earned from that must, among other things, redeem the cost of testing
    and trialing all the failures.

    There are now large numbers of drugs in the marketplace that are out
    of patent, and new uses for them continue to be found. In most cases
    these generic drugs are cheap, particularly if they are already in in widespread use. New uses for old drugs have little benefit for the
    drug companies who need to keep developing new drugs in order to stay
    in business.

    Enter covid-19. The whole thing started with video clips circulating
    around the world showing people suddenly falling down dead in the
    street and reports of bodies piling up on kerbs in places like
    Ecuador. The result of this was global panic and predictable demands
    for governments to "do something". President Trump said that he had
    taken medical advice about an inexpensive drug called
    hydroxychloroquine. He said he had a "good feeling" about it and had
    been taking it himself on his own doctor's advice as a preventative
    measure. Sometime later the president tested positive for covid19 and
    he and his wife went into isolation. They both later emerged unscathed
    despite the president being part of a high risk group.

    This was not what drug companies like Pfizer wanted to hear. They had
    been licking their chops at the prospect of marketing a new product
    whilst bypassing much of the expensive and rigorous testing that is
    typically required. Cheap and effective generic alternatives would
    scuttle that opportunity. The usual suspects in the media did a
    hatchet job on hydroxychloroquine and "experts" convinced the
    president that a vaccine was urgently needed. President Trump
    responded by granting the drug companies special dispensation to
    fast-track the development of a vaccine.

    So why was a cheap and safe drug like ivermectin so quickly taken off
    the table? Even if it were ineffective, it would have done no harm and
    it's inefficacy would have quickly become apparent, vindicating the
    drug companies' recommendations for a vaccine.

    It seems evident that the NZ government (and other governments) had
    signed a sale and purchase agreement with Pfizer which required them
    to forbid doctors from prescribing any generic drugs for the treatment
    and prevention of covid-19. If this is indeed what has happened, it
    would represent the greatest medical scandal in NZ history; that is if
    the media got off their lazy, compromised behinds and launched a full investigation. Instead, the media, Pfizer and the tech companies all
    circled the wagons and shut down any debate over the wisdom of
    withdrawing a cheap, safe and possibly effective drug.

    What is so unavoidably hypocritical about all this is that leftist
    narrative has traditionally defined "big pharma" as public enemy
    number one, unrivaled in their greed and inhumanity. All that changed
    once their favourite politicians started doing deals with them. The
    narrative then flipped, and the likes of Pfizer could do no wrong, and
    their expertise was never to be questioned.

    Bill.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From BR@21:1/5 to All on Tue May 21 22:16:40 2024
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 19:36:30 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:57:12 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Mon, 20 May 2024 10:29:01 +1200, Rich80105 <[email protected]> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 21:42:32 GMT, [email protected] (Willy Nilly) wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024, Tony <[email protected]> wrote:
    You want disinformation, try:
    (1) Russia, Russia, Russia (Trump related)
    (2) that Covid vaccines are good for you.
    (3) that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinfo.
    (4) that Biden is *not* the most corrupt US prez ever.
    And I could stretch this list endlessly, but can't be bothered.

    Lawrence is a perfect example of the gullible fools who believe what they are
    told and never dare (or care enough) to look at other sources of information.
    They shall inherit the hell that they are causing.
    He (knowingly?) confuses open-mindedness with conspiracy theory. Well at least
    he will go down knowing he toed the line. Reminds me of a song!

    I wonder which song that would be. Anyway, even though my list of >>>>mainstream disinfo can stretch into the hundreds, I'll add these 2:

    (5) that wind & solar are the cheapest source of grid electricity.
    (6) carbon accounting where you approach "net zero" by destroying your >>>>own industries by offshoring them all to China, whose coal-powered >>>>manufacturing is not counted in your calculations. Thanks for "saving >>>>the planet"!


    Do you have any main-stream support for those assertions, Willy?

    Why does "main-stream" support matter?

    What makes them so credible?

    Bill.

    Fair point, Bill - would "credible support" suit you better?

    Watching politicians being questioned under oath. It's all out there
    if you want to see it.

    Bill

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue May 21 21:48:27 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory >> >> >are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start >>says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not know and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and therefore those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out to be correct. I am sure there are many others.
    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 21 21:42:37 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 07:19:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are >>>>>also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>>>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will >>>>"continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the >>>statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was
    referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been >>>assembled to give information advice

    Your memory is deliberately faulty - she was referring to the government. Her >>and her ministers.

    No, you are yet again wrong. But I accept that you will claim that if
    is not fact but just your opinion . . .
    No it is fact. You are lying,
    Quote"We will continue to be your single source of truth." We means government because it was stated in parliament - it cannot mean anything else.
    From Ardern in parliament, see https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20200902_050580000/1-question-no-1-prime-minister
    Either you or Hansard are lying. Well?????
    - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was >>>talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as >>>number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a
    reference to that phrase being used?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed May 22 14:53:33 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 21:42:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 07:19:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>>>>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will >>>>>"continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the >>>>statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was >>>>referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been >>>>assembled to give information advice

    Your memory is deliberately faulty - she was referring to the government. Her
    and her ministers.

    No, you are yet again wrong. But I accept that you will claim that if
    is not fact but just your opinion . . .
    No it is fact. You are lying,
    Quote"We will continue to be your single source of truth." We means government >because it was stated in parliament - it cannot mean anything else.
    From Ardern in parliament, see >https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20200902_050580000/1-question-no-1-prime-minister
    Either you or Hansard are lying. Well?????

    "I stand by my statement in its entirety. Some weeks ago, I was asked
    about rumours and speculation that had emerged across social media on
    COVID-19 that could have caused harm to New Zealanders. My full quote
    reads, "I've been watching for some days�and this is not unique to New Zealand�that, in the midst of what is a global issue, as you would
    expect, there are a number of rumours that circulate. I am present on
    social media; I see it myself. I cannot go round and individually
    dismiss every single rumour I see, as tempted as I might be. So,
    instead, I want to send a clear message to the New Zealand public: we
    will share with you the most up-to-date information daily. You can
    trust us as a source of that information. You can also trust the Director-General of Health and the Ministry of Health. For that
    information, do feel free to visit at any time�to clarify any rumour
    you may hear�the covid19.govt.nz website. Otherwise, dismiss anything
    else. We will continue to be your single source of truth. We'll
    provide information frequently. We will share everything we can.
    Everything else you see�a grain of salt."

    So your interpretation was wrong - she was including in the "we", the Director-General and Ministry of Health and the covid19.govt.nz
    website, and "Everything else you see�a grain of salt."- - she is not
    saying that everyone else is wrong, but that those entities are
    sources of truth - others you cannot rely on.

    You have interpreted it very narrowly - but then narrow-minded is
    something you pride yourself in having, isn't it, Tony. . .

    - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was >>>>talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as >>>>number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a >>>>reference to that phrase being used?
    So my recollection was fairly accurate. Thanks for the reference to
    one time the phrase was used, Tony.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed May 22 04:22:13 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 21:42:37 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 07:19:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 20 May 2024 17:28:33 +1200, BR <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 23:44:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >>>>>><[email protected]d> wrote:

    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory >>>>>>>are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>>>>>believing in others.

    How about you?

    Did you believe Ardern when she announced that the government will >>>>>>"continue to be the single source of truth"?

    Bill.

    I don't think she was talking solely about the government in the >>>>>statement that included that phrase - my memory is that she was >>>>>referring to the advice being given by the wider team that had been >>>>>assembled to give information advice

    Your memory is deliberately faulty - she was referring to the government. >>>>Her
    and her ministers.

    No, you are yet again wrong. But I accept that you will claim that if
    is not fact but just your opinion . . .
    No it is fact. You are lying,
    Quote"We will continue to be your single source of truth." We means >>government
    because it was stated in parliament - it cannot mean anything else.
    From Ardern in parliament, see >>https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20200902_050580000/1-question-no-1-prime-minister
    Either you or Hansard are lying. Well?????

    "I stand by my statement in its entirety. Some weeks ago, I was asked
    about rumours and speculation that had emerged across social media on >COVID-19 that could have caused harm to New Zealanders. My full quote
    reads, "I've been watching for some days�and this is not unique to New >Zealand�that, in the midst of what is a global issue, as you would
    expect, there are a number of rumours that circulate. I am present on
    social media; I see it myself. I cannot go round and individually
    dismiss every single rumour I see, as tempted as I might be. So,
    instead, I want to send a clear message to the New Zealand public: we
    will share with you the most up-to-date information daily. You can
    trust us as a source of that information. You can also trust the >Director-General of Health and the Ministry of Health. For that
    information, do feel free to visit at any time�to clarify any rumour
    you may hear�the covid19.govt.nz website. Otherwise, dismiss anything
    else. We will continue to be your single source of truth. We'll
    provide information frequently. We will share everything we can.
    Everything else you see�a grain of salt."

    So your interpretation was wrong - she was including in the "we", the >Director-General and Ministry of Health and the covid19.govt.nz
    website, and "Everything else you see�a grain of salt."- - she is not
    saying that everyone else is wrong, but that those entities are
    sources of truth - others you cannot rely on.

    You have interpreted it very narrowly - but then narrow-minded is
    something you pride yourself in having, isn't it, Tony. . .
    Total bullshit.
    She can only refer to government in the house when pontificating as a PM. TYHat is protocol.
    Hansard proves your lie.
    See again.
    No it is fact. You are lying,
    Quote"We will continue to be your single source of truth." We means government because it was stated in parliament - it cannot mean anything else.
    From Ardern in parliament, see https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20200902_050580000/1-question-no-1-prime-minister
    Either you or Hansard are lying. Well?????
    Read it agin witghout spin and lies.
    - it included many public
    servants, some university people, as well as politicians, and it was >>>>>talking about a broad range of things, including statistics such as >>>>>number of cases and numbers in hospital. Are you able to give a >>>>>reference to that phrase being used?
    So my recollection was fairly accurate. Thanks for the reference to
    one time the phrase was used, Tony.
    Nope, you lied - deliberate lies are you only defense against the truth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Tony on Wed May 22 23:45:51 2024
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 21:48:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony wrote:

    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.

    Conspiracy theories too often are.

    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do
    not know and I suspect you don't either.

    But nevertheless, it’s fun to pick through that handful of past instances where those who were thought to be on the lunatic fringe turned out to be right, and ignore the much larger number where they did indeed turn out to
    be lunatics, isn’t it?

    Hindsight is so 6/6, isn’t it?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu May 23 07:04:34 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Tue, 21 May 2024 21:48:27 -0000 (UTC), Tony wrote:

    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.

    Conspiracy theories too often are.

    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do
    not know and I suspect you don't either.

    But nevertheless, it’s fun to pick through that handful of past instances >where those who were thought to be on the lunatic fringe turned out to be >right, and ignore the much larger number where they did indeed turn out to
    be lunatics, isn’t it?
    Why do you think that is fun?

    Hindsight is so 6/6, isn’t it?
    Hindsight is nothing or everything depending on the circumstances. A word so often misunderstood and misused, as in your case.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 27 12:24:02 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways? >> Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start >>says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out to be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Mon May 27 02:53:09 2024
    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >> >> >> > believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways? >> >> Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start >> >>says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to Gordon on Mon May 27 17:05:08 2024
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>> >> >> > believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways? >>> >> Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >>> >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start >>> >>says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about
    who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many
    modern conspiracy theories do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Mon May 27 07:07:56 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >> >> >> > believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways? >> >> Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start >> >>says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not >>know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out >>to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a >conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some >unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And >simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.
    Despite your refusal to agree I have provided one above.
    My only objection was that you picked on an absud one as an attempt to disprove what another poster wrote and then used an absolute.
    You have since retracted by admitting that there may be some that have been proven to be correct.
    I am not going to research that because it was not what I was concerned about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon May 27 07:10:09 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy >>>> >> >> >theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >>>> >> >> > believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >>>> >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly >>>> >are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not >>>>know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>>>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term >>>> conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out >>>>to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And >>> simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list >>> a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to >>> ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to >>> be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about
    who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many
    modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 27 22:08:03 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >> >says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy >>>> >> >> >theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct. >>>> >> >
    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate >>>> >> >ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >>>> >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the >>>> >>start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly >>>> >are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>>>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term >>>> conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a >>> conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And >>> simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy >>> - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public >>> isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be >>> true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list >>> a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to >>> ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to >>> be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about
    who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many >modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered.

    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a
    good one.

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A
    conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but
    conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their existence.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem
    unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable
    labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15-
    minute city.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 27 22:07:22 2024
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) to >> >> >> > believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >> >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not >>know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned out >>to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a >conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about >something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some >unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And >simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public >isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be >true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to >ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.
    Despite your refusal to agree I have provided one above.
    My only objection was that you picked on an absud one as an attempt to disprove
    what another poster wrote and then used an absolute.

    Indeed I agree I was being overly harsh in that post and I apologise to
    Gordon if there was any offence taken as it was not meant. Were this a
    forum I might have later edited my post to be more courteous but usenet
    does not allow one to so easily correct such mistakes!

    You have since retracted by admitting that there may be some that have
    been
    proven to be correct.
    I am not going to research that because it was not what I was concerned about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Mon May 27 20:09:40 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >> >>>> >> >says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy >> >>>> >> >> >theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) >> >>>> >> >> >to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate >> >>>> >> >ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories
    are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the >> >>>> >>start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly >> >>>> >are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do >> >>>>not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and
    therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term >> >>>> conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned >> >>>>out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a >> >>> conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And >> >>> simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy >> >>> - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public >> >>> isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be >> >>> true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list >> >>> a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to >> >>> ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to >> >>> be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about
    who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many
    modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the
    opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered.

    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a
    good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A
    conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but
    conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem
    unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15-
    minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a nutshell, at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Mon May 27 20:11:34 2024
    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy >> >> >> >> >theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions) >> >> >> >> >to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories are >> >> >>correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do not >> >>know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and
    therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term >> >> conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.
    Despite your refusal to agree I have provided one above.
    My only objection was that you picked on an absud one as an attempt to >>disprove
    what another poster wrote and then used an absolute.

    Indeed I agree I was being overly harsh in that post and I apologise to >Gordon if there was any offence taken as it was not meant. Were this a
    forum I might have later edited my post to be more courteous but usenet
    does not allow one to so easily correct such mistakes!
    That is true and I thank you for your honesty. I doubt that Gordon was offended.

    You have since retracted by admitting that there may be some that have
    been
    proven to be correct.
    I am not going to research that because it was not what I was concerned >>about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 28 12:38:16 2024
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>> >>> says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>> >>>> >says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>> >>>> >> >says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct. >>> >>>> >> >
    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate >>> >>>> >> >ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories >>> >>>> >>are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the >>> >>>> >>start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they clearly >>> >>>> >are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do >>> >>>>not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>> >>>>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that turned >>> >>>>out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of a >>> >>> conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some >>> >>> unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a conspiracy >>> >>> - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional
    criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of >>> >>> the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made public >>> >>> isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not
    outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be >>> >>> true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be
    similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about
    who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many
    modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the >>> opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered.

    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at >least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A
    conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but
    conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15-
    minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a nutshell, >at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Then you are missing some important issues - some of those "fantasies"
    are deliberate dis-information and mis-information. Most of us if we
    were honest would admit to being at least temporarily misled by such
    deliberate attempts to mislead. The sophistication of such deliberate disinformation has become reasonably well know, and the sources both
    domestic and international. Some is deliberately intended to be
    divisive, some (such as for example that used by Trump before he was
    elected President) is partisan, and designed to spread untruths about
    both 'friends' and 'enemies'. That some believe such mis-information
    is undeniable - the whole point of the thread is much broader, and
    more important to our country and each of us than you appear to
    understand.

    To remind you, here is the original post: __________________________________________

    Just been watching the doco �Web Of Chaos� on TV1, looking at all the misinformation (accidental/careless factual errors) and disinformation (deliberate fabrication and lying) happening online, and its relevance
    to NZ.

    Two of the interviewees (Drs Hannah and Hattotuwa) were from the
    Disinformation Project, which sets out to research the details of how falsehoods start and spread. As you can imagine, spending several
    hours a day, every day, in the sewer can take its toll; there is a
    need for a thorough cleaning, both mental and physical, afterwards.
    And both undergo regular counselling, as well.

    There is a feeling that NZ has not been as badly contaminated by the misinformation/disinformation crap as some other places. But equally,
    it is also less well protected against the infection. One has to be
    careful, though, not to jump to the conclusion that there is some
    giant global conspiracy to take over everybody�s minds, that might be
    using NZ in some ways as a test laboratory (as one of the interviewees
    said); yes, there are many groups of conspirators around the world,
    based in authoritarian regimes or countries prone to them, that might
    be operating along roughly parallel lines.

    But that does not mean they are actually coordinated; each still has
    their own agenda, after all. I think the main connection between them
    is mainly down to the commonality in their most receptive
    victims/audience: those who are prone to believing in one conspiracy
    theory are also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions) to believing in others.

    As per Hanlon�s Razor, a lot of what goes on online is not about
    malice, but about just plain stupidity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 28 03:49:58 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >>> says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> >>>> >> >says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one
    conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct. >>>> >>>> >> >
    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate >>>> >>>> >> >ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories >>>> >>>> >>are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the >>>> >>>> >>start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they
    clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>> >>>> >outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do >>>> >>>>not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>>> >>>>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The >>>> >>>>term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that
    turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of >>>> >>>a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about
    something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some >>>> >>> unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. >>>> >>>And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a
    conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >>>> >>> criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of >>>> >>> the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made
    public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>> >>>> >outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be >>>> >>> true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can >>>> >>>list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single >>>> >>> proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be >>>> >>> similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely >>>> >>>to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out >>>> >>>to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about.

    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about
    the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once >>>> >the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about >>>> >who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many >>>> >modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the >>>> opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered. >>>
    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at >>least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A >>>conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but >>>conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15- >>>minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a nutshell, >>at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Idiotic off topic stuff removed.
    Start your own thread Rich, and stop pissing all over others.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 28 16:32:03 2024
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 03:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>> >>> says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >> >> > On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one
    conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct. >>>>> >>>> >> >
    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy theories >>>>> >>>> >>are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they
    clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>> >>>> >outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I do
    not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, and >>>>> >>>>therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The >>>>> >>>>term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that >>>>> >>>>turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack of >>>>> >>>a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about >>>>> >>> something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be some >>>>> >>> unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. >>>>> >>>And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a
    conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >>>>> >>> criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit of >>>>> >>> the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made >>>>> >>>public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>> >>>> >outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can >>>>> >>>list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single >>>>> >>> proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be >>>>> >>> similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not likely >>>>> >>>to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned out >>>>> >>>to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about. >>>>> >>
    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about >>>>> >the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once >>>>> >the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about >>>>> >who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many >>>>> >modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the >>>>> opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered. >>>>
    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>>>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at >>>least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A >>>>conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but >>>>conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>>>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>>>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>>>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15- >>>>minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a nutshell,
    at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Idiotic off topic stuff removed.
    Start your own thread Rich, and stop pissing all over others.
    You have just deleted a copy of the first post to the thread, Tony -
    presumably because you thought it was off topic, but in reality I
    suspect you just did not like the reality of getting back on track -
    the other side of the information war is swamping good discussion with
    bad - anything to hide your failures - "Right", Tony?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue May 28 07:04:17 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 03:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>>> >>>> >> >> > On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote:

    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one
    conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in
    inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy
    theories
    are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - >>>>>> >>>> >>the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they >>>>>> >>>> >clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I >>>>>> >>>>do
    not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, >>>>>> >>>>and
    therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The >>>>>> >>>>term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that >>>>>> >>>>turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack >>>>>> >>>of
    a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about >>>>>> >>> something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be >>>>>> >>>some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist. >>>>>> >>>And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a
    conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >>>>>> >>> criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit >>>>>> >>>of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made >>>>>> >>>public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to >>>>>> >>>be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can >>>>>> >>>list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single >>>>>> >>> proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be >>>>>> >>> similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not >>>>>> >>>likely
    to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned >>>>>> >>>out
    to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about. >>>>>> >>
    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a
    conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about >>>>>> >the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once >>>>>> >the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about >>>>>> >who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many >>>>>> >modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the >>>>>> opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered. >>>>>
    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>>>>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at >>>>least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A >>>>>conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but >>>>>conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>>>>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>>>>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>>>>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15- >>>>>minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a >>>>nutshell,
    at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Idiotic off topic stuff removed.
    Start your own thread Rich, and stop pissing all over others.
    You have just deleted a copy of the first post to the thread, Tony
    No I did not. It was already deleted and not by me.
    Do try to concentrate.
    -
    Abuse removed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich80105@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu May 30 08:34:20 2024
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 07:04:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 03:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>>>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >
    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> > On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote: >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >
    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in
    inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy >>>>>>> >>>> >>theories
    are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - >>>>>>> >>>> >>the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they >>>>>>> >>>> >clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage I >>>>>>> >>>>do
    not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, >>>>>>> >>>>and
    therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). The >>>>>>> >>>>term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that >>>>>>> >>>>turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack >>>>>>> >>>of
    a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about >>>>>>> >>> something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be >>>>>>> >>>some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to exist.
    And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a >>>>>>> >>>conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >>>>>>> >>> criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit >>>>>>> >>>of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made >>>>>>> >>>public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out to >>>>>>> >>>be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I can >>>>>>> >>>list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a single >>>>>>> >>> proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be >>>>>>> >>> similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not >>>>>>> >>>likely
    to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned >>>>>>> >>>out
    to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about. >>>>>>> >>
    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a >>>>>>> >conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about >>>>>>> >the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once >>>>>>> >the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about >>>>>>> >who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many >>>>>>> >modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see the
    opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is shuttered.

    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>>>>>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point at
    least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A >>>>>>conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but >>>>>>conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>>>>>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>>>>>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>>>>>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15- >>>>>>minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a >>>>>nutshell,
    at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Idiotic off topic stuff removed.
    Start your own thread Rich, and stop pissing all over others.
    You have just deleted a copy of the first post to the thread, Tony
    No I did not. It was already deleted and not by me.
    Do try to concentrate.
    The post you were replying to included that original post to remind
    you of the subject of the thread - you deleted it.

    It is your little contribution to cancel culture - when you cannot
    abide legitimate free speech and opinions that you do not share (or
    perhaps that you do not understand), you delete those posts.

    Do you pride yourself on contributing to the Web of Chaos. Tony?





    -
    Abuse removed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tony@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu May 30 01:04:38 2024
    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 07:04:17 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 03:49:58 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Mon, 27 May 2024 20:09:40 -0000 (UTC), Tony >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>>>>>says...

    Rich80105 <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 27 May 2024 02:53:09 GMT, Gordon <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >
    On 2024-05-27, David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    David Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote:
    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]
    says...

    On 2024-05-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >> > On Sun, 19 May 2024 09:09:53 GMT, Willy Nilly wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >
    You want disinformation, try:
    [a list of multiple conspiracy theories]

    Like I said: those who are prone to believing in one >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >conspiracy
    theory
    are
    also prone (regardless of any resulting logical
    contradictions)
    to
    believing in others.

    This is because the conspirarcy theories are so often >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>correct.

    Really?

    So aliens really do abduct people and probe them in
    inappropriate
    ways?
    Oh do grow up David, Gordon did not say "all" conspiracy >>>>>>>> >>>> >>theories
    are
    correct,
    I can't be bothered with the rest of what you follow3ed with - >>>>>>>> >>>> >>the
    start
    says
    it all.

    He said conspiracy theories are "so often correct" which they >>>>>>>> >>>> >clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd.
    You made a ridiculously extre,\me case.
    Fact is many "conspriacies" tuen out to be true. What percentage >>>>>>>> >>>>I
    do
    not
    know
    and I suspect you don't either.
    In the 1930s Chamberlain said Hitler intended no harm to the UK, >>>>>>>> >>>>and
    therefore
    those that thouight otherwise were wrong (conspiracy theory!). >>>>>>>> >>>>The
    term
    conspiracy theory had not been coined then but that is one that >>>>>>>> >>>>turned
    out
    to
    be correct. I am sure there are many others.

    Few people would consider that a conspiracy theory due to the lack >>>>>>>> >>>of
    a
    conspiracy. Chamberlain was simply (catastrophically) wrong about >>>>>>>> >>> something.

    For something to be a conspiracy theory there actually has to be >>>>>>>> >>>some
    unproven conspiracy of some kind other that people believe to >>>>>>>> >>>exist.
    And
    simply keeping something secret isn't necessarily proof of a >>>>>>>> >>>conspiracy
    - calling something a conspiracy implies some level of intentional >>>>>>>> >>> criminality, corruption or other harmful behaviour for the benefit >>>>>>>> >>>of
    the conspirators. So something previously kept secret being made >>>>>>>> >>>public
    isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory proven correct.

    You should provide evidence that " which they clearly
    are not. Conspiracy theories are far more often incorrect if not >>>>>>>> >>>> >outright absurd."
    That is just as broad a statement as Gordon's.

    I'm sure there are some conspiracy theories that have turned out >>>>>>>> >>>to
    be
    true, but they are almost certainly few and far between given I >>>>>>>> >>>can
    list
    a bunch of unproven ones without effort but can't think of a >>>>>>>> >>>single
    proven one. Most actual conspiracy theories out there appear to be >>>>>>>> >>> similar in nature to the ones I listed. Clearly absurd and not >>>>>>>> >>>likely
    to
    ever be proven true.

    I'd be glad to hear of any actual conspiracy theories that turned >>>>>>>> >>>out
    to
    be true though - I'm sure it would be fascinating to read about. >>>>>>>> >>
    Does Watergate meet your criteria?

    I see that as a Conspiracy, and a Criminal Conspiracy, but not a >>>>>>>> >conspiracy theory. There were not people going around talking about >>>>>>>> >the President plotting to break into a building and steal papers. Once
    the incident had occurred there may have been a lot of theories about >>>>>>>> >who had done it, but they did not generally stray into fantasy as many
    modern conspiracy theories do.
    Fantasy is what your preach here. In addition, the fact that you see >>>>>>>>the
    opinions of others as fantasy merely proves that your mind is >>>>>>>>shuttered.

    I don't really see how that relates to the point Rich made which *was* a >>>>>>>good one.
    Anyone can find an example like that, but it is off the point. (my point >>>>>>at
    least).

    A conspiracy and a conspiracy theory are two different things. A >>>>>>>conspiracy theory may later turn into a proven conspiracy, but >>>>>>>conspiracies can exist without there being anyone theorising about their >>>>>>>existence.
    Obviously.

    And calling many modern conspiracy theories fantasy doesn't seem >>>>>>>unreasonable to me. One could certainly come up with far less charitable >>>>>>>labels for the conspiracy theories surrounding, for example, the 15- >>>>>>>minute city.
    Solme are fantasies and some are not - that is the whole point in a >>>>>>nutshell,
    at least as far as my involvement in this thread goes.

    Idiotic off topic stuff removed.
    Start your own thread Rich, and stop pissing all over others.
    You have just deleted a copy of the first post to the thread, Tony
    No I did not. It was already deleted and not by me.
    Do try to concentrate.
    The post you were replying to included that original post to remind
    you of the subject of the thread - you deleted it.
    I did no such thing. You ared a liart.

    More abuse gone.



    -
    Abuse removed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 30 23:35:35 2024
    On Sun, 19 May 2024 08:49:31 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:

    As per Hanlon’s Razor, a lot of what goes on online is not about malice, but about just plain stupidity.

    Case in point: <https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/05/key-misinformation-superspreaders-on-twitter-older-women/>.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)