• Re: Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System

    From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Wed May 29 15:01:42 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-28 17:37, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 00:37:49 -0600, Charlie wrote:

    Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>

    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?

    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense. Run for the
    hills! Lock up your daughters!

    BSSID's do not report anything that is a privacy risk. SSID's could
    contain private data IF the owner added it to the SSID.

    Note that some mapping services (such as those used by Google and Apple
    and others) do collect SSID locations (Lat/Long) which are approximate
    (but can be narrowed down over time). And thus when Identified can be
    used as proxy location data. Big deal.

    So the huge risk is to "travel routers". Sure. Once upon a time a man
    with a briefcase stayed at a hotel. Yawn with snooze sauce.

    The article also points out some workarounds for people who feel they
    might be at risk.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Wed May 29 18:17:04 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 15:01:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>

    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?

    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense. Run for the
    hills! Lock up your daughters!

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
    expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.

    BSSID's do not report anything that is a privacy risk. SSID's could
    contain private data IF the owner added it to the SSID.

    Let's use the Edward Snowden method to show you don't believe that.

    Please give me your accurate BSSID of your home router.
    With that, I can tell you exactly where you live.

    Note that some mapping services (such as those used by Google and Apple
    and others) do collect SSID locations (Lat/Long) which are approximate
    (but can be narrowed down over time). And thus when Identified can be
    used as proxy location data. Big deal.

    Stop trying to change the subject to SSIDs. Stick with the BSSID.
    If you give me your accurate BSSID, I can tell you exactly where you live.

    In fact, that's what the researchers themselves found out.

    So the huge risk is to "travel routers". Sure. Once upon a time a man
    with a briefcase stayed at a hotel. Yawn with snooze sauce.

    You seemed to have missed the point of travel routers. They follow you.

    Give me the accurate BSSID of your travel router.
    Not only can I tell you where you live, but I can then follow you around.

    That you missed that key point is a bit disconcerting.
    Maybe you need to read the article again?

    The article also points out some workarounds for people who feel they
    might be at risk.

    Since you didn't seem to understand the implication of "travel routers",
    you may have missed that they discussed how to use "_nomap" on router
    SSID's to have the (unique) BSSID removed from Apple's & Google's databases (but not from Microsoft's databases).

    Since you did not understand those implications, you probably don't yet
    know that there are many other databases which don't necessarily honor
    Google's "_nomap", such as those from WiGle, NetStumbler, Mozilla, etc.

    As I said, the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
    expected Apple, of all companies, of throwing privacy under the bus.

    What it indicates is Apple advertises privacy - but doesn't understand it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Wed May 29 19:29:12 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-29 18:17, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 15:01:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>

    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?

    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.  Run for the
    hills!  Lock up your daughters!

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.


    Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
    its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
    at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.
    And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to "scramble" the BSSID.

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 00:51:53 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-29, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-29 18:17, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 15:01:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against
    privacy?

    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.  Run for the
    hills!  Lock up your daughters!

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.

    Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
    expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
    its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.

    This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
    these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades,
    completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl
    clutching.

    Yes, because: troll.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Wed May 29 23:28:26 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 00:51:53 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
    its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.

    This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
    these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades, completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl
    clutching.

    Yes, because: troll.

    Are you really saying 9to5Mac is "trolling" Apple by reporting it?

    Apple Location Services vulnerability <https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>

    "This includes your home wifi router, for example. Devices don't gain any access to your router, but they can detect it and consult a database to
    find out exactly where it is located. The issue could also allow an
    attacker to work out the location of anyone using a mobile wifi router,
    such as those in RVs, and travel routers sometimes used by business travellers."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Wed May 29 23:28:24 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Wed, 29 May 2024 19:29:12 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.

    You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?

    Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
    expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
    its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
    at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.

    You're apparently not aware that a router's outward-facing BSSID is unique.

    And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to "scramble" the BSSID.

    Not with a router there isn't. Since you don't know anything about routers, allow me to explain that "MAC cloning" never clones outward facing BSSIDs.

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.

    You're denying that a problem exists, but you don't understand the problem.

    Apple Location Services vulnerability <https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>

    "This includes your home wifi router, for example. Devices don't gain any access to your router, but they can detect it and consult a database to
    find out exactly where it is located. The issue could also allow an
    attacker to work out the location of anyone using a mobile wifi router,
    such as those in RVs, and travel routers sometimes used by business travellers."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 19:03:32 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-29 23:29:12 +0000, Alan Browne said:

    On 2024-05-29 18:17, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 15:01:42 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>


    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy? >>>
    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense.� Run for the
    hills!� Lock up your daughters!

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.


    Note that the problem isn't a new problems; what's new is that nobody
    expected Apple, of all companies, of abusing everyone's privacy.

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station broadcasting
    its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy. Your "protection"
    at that point is strong passwords against intrusion. That's all.
    And if you travel with a portable access point, there are other ways to "scramble" the BSSID.

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.

    Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
    and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
    better term) being in both groupings. :-(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From david@21:1/5 to Your Name on Thu May 30 02:41:56 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Using <news:v398c4$1j74g$[email protected]>, Your Name wrote:

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.

    Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
    and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
    better term) being in both groupings.

    Seems pretty real in government, Apple news & cybersecurity news reports.

    https://cybersecuritynews.com/apples-wi-fi-positioning-system/
    "Researchers from the University of Maryland published their findings,
    which reveal that an unprivileged attacker can exploit Apple's
    crowdsourced location tracking system to amass a worldwide database
    of Wi-Fi access point locations and track devices' movements."

    The researchers suggested in their paper that the government again be used
    to force Apple to implement privacy so this can't be done in the future.

    "They also recommend that WPS operators restrict access to their APIs
    and that governments consider regulating the use of WPS data.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 07:35:14 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-29 23:28, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Wed, 29 May 2024 19:29:12 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Are you saying that only because it was Apple who got caught?

    I'm saying it because it is a non issue and click bait at best.

    You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?

    Context: BSSID
    Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.

    Not an Apple issue.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to david on Thu May 30 07:44:22 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 04:41, david wrote:
    Using <news:v398c4$1j74g$[email protected]>, Your Name wrote:

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl clutching.

    Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing trolls
    and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want of a
    better term) being in both groupings.

    Seems pretty real in government, Apple

    The silly troll is trying to slant this as an Apple issue.

    It's not. At all. It's a public broadcast signal - anyone can record
    them and where and when they were recorded.

    Don't need an Apple device.

    Or for that matter, any device.

    Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
    uploaded BSSID's such as:

    https://wigle.net/

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 14:40:19 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 00:51:53 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    This does not abuse privacy. If you have a WiFi station
    broadcasting its B/SSID it is the antithesis of wanting privacy.

    This strange idea that B/SSIDs are private is laughable. It's as if
    these trolls have been hiding under rocks for the past few decades,
    completely unaware that SSIDs are perfectly visible to anyone nearby.

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
    idea how ridiculous you sound?

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charlie@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 09:13:10 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On this Thu, 30 May 2024 07:44:22 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
    uploaded BSSID's such as:

    https://wigle.net/

    You didn't read the paper. https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf

    They discussed Wigle & Google. And Starlink too. The problem is Apple.

    https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/23/apple_wifi_positioning_system/
    "The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for which the
    WPSes are designed - individuals who own no Apple products, for instance,
    can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having Apple devices come within Wi-Fi transmission range."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 14:45:18 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-30 04:41, david wrote:
    Using <news:v398c4$1j74g$[email protected]>, Your Name wrote:

    But of course, launch off the deep end into the panic a pearl
    clutching.

    Unfortunately in this newsgroup there are a lot of know-nothing
    trolls and a lot of conspiracy nutters, with some 'people' (for want
    of a better term) being in both groupings.

    Seems pretty real in government, Apple

    The silly troll is trying to slant this as an Apple issue.

    It's not. At all. It's a public broadcast signal - anyone can record
    them and where and when they were recorded.

    Don't need an Apple device.

    Or for that matter, any device.

    Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
    uploaded BSSID's such as:

    https://wigle.net/

    "EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG
    bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere

    Next, these smooth brains will try to explain how Apple doing it "Is DiFfErEnT!"... Watch.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 11:26:46 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 07:35:14 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?

    Context: BSSID
    Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.

    In every paper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    "In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]

    Not an Apple issue.

    Then why is everyone who understands it reporting that it's very much an
    Apple issue.

    "Academic researchers have criticized Apple for enabling stalkers and warlords. An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking of
    almost any vendor's Wi-Fi access point location." ���[https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]

    "Apple will provide your WiFi location to anyone sending a query, and researchers demonstrated that "an unprivileged, weak attacker" - in other words, anyone - can exploit Apple's WiFi-based positioning system (WPS) to perform global mass surveillance." ���[https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Charlie@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 09:36:58 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On this 30 May 2024 14:45:18 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    "EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole, can
    you find any reference on the Internet that says the problem is NOT Apple?

    Next, these smooth brains will try to explain how Apple doing it "Is DiFfErEnT!"... Watch.

    Even the Apple shills say the privacy hole is an Apple vulnerability
    due to the way that Apple hands out over 400 responses to each request.

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
    "Security researchers report that a key element of Apple Location Services contains what they call a really serious privacy vulnerability"

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "Researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way Apple�s location services work"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 11:27:17 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 14:40:19 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
    idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Charlie on Thu May 30 15:54:58 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:
    On this Thu, 30 May 2024 07:44:22 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Just use a database that contains a worldwide listing of known and
    uploaded BSSID's such as:

    https://wigle.net/

    You didn't read the paper. https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf

    They discussed Wigle & Google. And Starlink too. The problem is Apple.

    The supposed "privacy vulnerability stated by the authors of the paper
    is that a database of WiFi B/SSIDs "enables a remote adversary to query
    the location of arbitrary BSSIDs".

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well. Again, routers broadcast their
    B/SSIDs to the world - everyone can see them, which is why there are
    numerous databases of them. There's nothing special about Apple in that
    regard. It's just another database of WiFi SSIDs.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Charlie on Thu May 30 15:56:03 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Charlie <[email protected]> wrote:
    On this 30 May 2024 14:45:18 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    "EERMEGHERD! ThIs Is A pRiVaCy IsSuE! HoW dArE tHeY rEaD sSiDs BeInG
    bRoAdCaSt By MiLlIoNs Of RoUtErS?!?1!!" - morons everywhere

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole

    A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 15:58:22 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 14:40:19 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
    you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
    any idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private information.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=B6rg_Lorenz?=@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 30 18:14:09 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Am 30.05.24 um 17:58 schrieb Jolly Roger:
    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 14:40:19 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
    you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
    any idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private information.

    +1

    --
    "Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 18:08:01 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 15:58:22 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
    you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you
    have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't
    private information.

    It's obvious you have no idea what a BSSID is, versus what an SSID is.

    Projection. Both are broadcast by the router which makes them both
    public information.

    only Apple has this problem

    Wrong, Arlen. Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
    by SSID and BSSID.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 13:47:29 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 15:58:22 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
    you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
    any idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    Sure I do. You don't seem to know that your router's BSSID isn't private information.

    It's obvious you have no idea what a BSSID is, versus what an SSID is.

    Why do you think only Apple has this problem, which, I'm sure you'll deny,
    but every single cite on the Internet about it directly blames Apple alone.

    "In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 14:13:52 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 15:54:58 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    The problem is Apple.

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.

    No you can't.

    It's obvious you have no idea what the problem is, especially since every
    cite on the Internet directly blames Apple and Apple alone for this flaw.

    "In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused to create a privacy threat on a global scale." [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]

    Again, routers broadcast their
    B/SSIDs to the world - everyone can see them, which is why there are
    numerous databases of them.

    What is obvious you don't understand, besides what a BSSID is, is that
    every cite on the Internet blames Apple alone - and that's because how
    Apple implemented the lookup (for example, by allowing an infinite number
    of lookups without any checks whatsoever and then, to make it worse, by reporting over 400 nearby BSSID's when you look up just one).

    Apple Location Services vulnerability [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
    "We first need to understand how Apple devices figure out their locations."

    There's nothing special about Apple in that
    regard. It's just another database of WiFi SSIDs.

    Why do you think only Apple has this problem, which, I'm sure you'll deny,
    but every single cite on the Internet about it directly blames Apple alone. [https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
    "Academic researchers have criticized Apple for enabling stalkers and warlords. An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking of
    almost any vendor's Wi-Fi access point location."

    Every cite on the net blames Apple and Apple alone for this privacy flaw. [https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
    "Apple will provide your WiFi location to anyone sending a query, and researchers demonstrated that "an unprivileged, weak attacker" - in other words, anyone - can exploit Apple's WiFi-based positioning system (WPS) to perform global mass surveillance."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 14:32:56 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 11:26, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 07:35:14 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You can say privacy is a non issue but doesn't Apple advertise it?

    Context: BSSID
    Privacy: BSSID's are openly broadcast for a reason.

    In every paper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
    the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
    "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    "In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused

    ANY WiFi device can detect BSSIDs.

    Couple that to the position
    - from GPS or
    - trilaterated from cell towers
    - hand entered by those gelatinous forms called low wager workers

    And you have a proxy position and time of detection.

    OH THE HUMANITY!

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 14:39:18 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 11:27, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 14:40:19 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are you
    excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have any
    idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?

    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR knows precisely what the difference is.

    The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
    users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper look
    and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 17:14:47 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:32:56 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
    the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
    "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
    only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

    "In this work, we show that Apple's WPS can be abused

    ANY WiFi device can detect BSSIDs.

    Couple that to the position
    - from GPS or
    - trilaterated from cell towers
    - hand entered by those gelatinous forms called low wager workers

    And you have a proxy position and time of detection.

    OH THE HUMANITY!

    It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
    only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
    "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 17:03:56 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 18:08:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
    by SSID and BSSID.

    Every excuse you make for Apple's flawed implementation shows you do not understand that it's Apple's flawed implementation alone that is to blame.

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System represents a really serious privacy vulnerability"

    "researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

    "The researchers discovered an oddity in the way Apple's WPS works"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 17:12:45 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:39:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?

    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR knows precisely what the difference is.

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
    and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.

    It was Apple's suggested workaround that involved an SSID - nothing else.
    The problem is all about the way Apple handles the BSSID.

    It's obvious that neither of you understand the difference in the least.
    Only Apple has this vulnerability.

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

    The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
    users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper look and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.

    Neither of you shows any understanding that the WAN-facing BSSID is unique
    to the router and unchangeable in almost all routers, and that a router's location is unique to your exact location, and that a travel router's WAN-facing BSSID, in particular, follows you around everywhere you go.

    Neither of you shows any indication you understand that the LAN-facing MAC cloning has absolutely no effect on the WAN-facing BSSID of most routers.

    As a result of your lack of understanding, you didn't even read any of teh cites, every one of which clearly says the problem is unique to Apple's implementation alone - as only Apple hands out the nearest 400 BSSIDs.

    Only Apple has this vulnerability. https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
    "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu May 30 17:15:24 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 15:56:03 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole

    A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".

    Only Apple has this vulnerability.

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
    "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 17:29:15 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 17:15, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 15:56:03 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole

    A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".

    Only Apple has this vulnerability.

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/ "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    Apple trigger word got ya huh?

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 17:28:27 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 17:14, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:32:56 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
    the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
    "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

    Your problem is your gullibility. "Apple" is your trigger word.

    Go work it out with a psychologist.


    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 17:27:05 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 17:12, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:39:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you?

    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
    knows precisely what the difference is.

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
    and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.

    It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
    what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
    fighting chance.

    When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
    sorts of interesting information.

    1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
    2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
    access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.

    The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
    picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
    access, then of course he'll need that too.

    The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
    (You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
    connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
    same they don't have to be the same...).

    Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
    On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
    course, once can use one of many tools to display same.

    Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
    was replying to and did so correctly.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 21:30:12 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 15:54:58 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    The problem is Apple.

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.

    No you can't.

    Yes, you can.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 21:33:55 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-30 11:27, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 14:40:19 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Are you excusing Apple just because Apple got caught doing it?

    Every single time you join WiFi you see a list of nearby SSIDs. Are
    you excusing yourself because you "got caught" doing it? Do you have
    any idea how ridiculous you sound?

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
    knows precisely what the difference is.

    Arlen acts like this is some sort of secret information, when the
    reality is the definitions of BSSIDs and SSIDs is common knowledge.
    Arlen clearly doesn't understand how WiFi works, yet he's claiming
    everyone else is dumb.

    The latter is usually obfuscated from the user as not esp. useful to
    users. Though it is in the clear and clearly visible with a deeper
    look and/or with scanning tools available for pretty much every OS.

    Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
    There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
    broadcast information.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 21:31:36 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:32:56 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets
    paid, the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning
    "privacy" "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue

    You're projecting. It is you who does not understand how WiFi works.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 21:36:46 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:39:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do
    you?

    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
    knows precisely what the difference is.

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an
    SSID and a BSSID

    It's obvious *you* don't understand how WiFi works. BSSIDs and SSIDs are broadcast by WiFi routers and have been since WiFi was created. There is
    no "privacy violation" in looking at information that is broadcast to
    the public.

    the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable

    Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 21:37:35 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 18:08:01 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
    by SSID and BSSID.

    Every excuse

    There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their
    BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 21:53:09 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-30 17:14, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:32:56 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    aper they discuss that Apple is the problem, not the BSSID.

    Yes - when a dumbass editor will sign off on it so a writer gets paid,
    the writer can be sure it will be expedited for mentioning "privacy"
    "issue" and "Apple" in the same paper or article.

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the >> only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html
    "researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered a crucial
    vulnerability in the way Apple's location services work"

    Your problem is your gullibility. "Apple" is your trigger word.

    Go work it out with a psychologist.

    If only...

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 21:52:50 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-30 17:12, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 14:39:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    You don't know the difference between a unique BSSID & an SSID, do you? >>>
    The fact that he pointed it out as SSID rather than BSSID shows JR
    knows precisely what the difference is.

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
    and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.

    It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
    what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
    fighting chance.

    When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all sorts of interesting information.

    1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
    2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
    access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.

    The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
    picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password access, then of course he'll need that too.

    The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
    (You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
    same they don't have to be the same...).

    Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
    On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of course, once can use one of many tools to display same.

    Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
    was replying to and did so correctly.

    This is all elementary. Arlen pretends it's top-secret information that
    nobody but he knows to feed his superiority complex due to his
    insecurities. He has to pretend he's better than everyone else because
    deep down, he knows he's a loser troll with nothing constructive to do
    with his time on Earth.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 23:05:15 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 17:27:05 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID >>> and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all. >>
    It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
    what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
    fighting chance.

    When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all
    sorts of interesting information.

    1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
    2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
    access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.

    The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
    picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password
    access, then of course he'll need that too.

    The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
    (You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you
    connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
    same they don't have to be the same...).

    Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
    On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of
    course, once can use one of many tools to display same.

    Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
    was replying to and did so correctly.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue

    Projection, it is *you* who don't understand the ramifications - or how
    WiFi access points work.

    "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    What Arlen refrained from quoting is that this "crucial difference" is
    simply that with Apple's database, searches yield more results of access
    points that are near the queried B/SSID. What he also isn't
    acknowledging is that when you search for a B/SSID on Wigle.net's map,
    you also see all nearby access points right there on a handy visual map.

    Nothing Arlen can say changes the FACT (little Arlen loves that word)
    those IDs are still broadcast to the public by those WiFi access points.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Thu May 30 18:29:59 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 17:27:05 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    It's obvious that Jolly Roger doesn't know the difference between an SSID
    and a BSSID because it was clear that the problem isn't in the SSID at all.

    It's actually the root of it which you would know if you knew at all
    what it going on. I'll explain this as to a child to give you a
    fighting chance.

    When an a device such as a phone detects a WiFi access point it gets all sorts of interesting information.

    1. The BSSID which is a binary code (usually expressed in hexadecimal).
    2. The SSID which is a label assigned to it by whoever administers the
    access point. "AirPortFreeWiFi" for example.

    The device (phone) user usually is only interested in the latter - he
    picks from whatever is available to access the WiFi - if it is password access, then of course he'll need that too.

    The actual working connection does not use the SSID - it uses the BSSID.
    (You can refer to it is as the MAC or Wi-Fi address if that helps you connect all these big people ideas - although they often/usually the
    same they don't have to be the same...).

    Most devices will display the BSSID if the user wants to delve into it.
    On most phones this would be shown as the MAC or Wi-Fi address. Or of course, once can use one of many tools to display same.

    Thus - in JR's earlier reply - he was being quite clear about what he
    was replying to and did so correctly.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
    only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/
    "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Thu May 30 19:18:55 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-30 18:29, Oscar Mayer wrote:

    It's clear

    that you are gullible. A click bait drive victim.

    you don't understand the issue when you and Jolly Roger are the
    only people in the world who say it's not specifically an Apple issue.

    The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
    SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.

    THESE WAVES ARE PENETRATING YOUR HEAD RIGHT NOW.

    DESPITE THE 6 LAYERS OF ALUMINUM PAPER OVER YOUR HEAD.

    The specific case is "Apple do things differently than (say) Google or
    someone else". Well .... frick -- who'd a thunk different people do
    things differently. BRING BACK COMMUNISM AND DO IT FROM CENTRAL CONTROL!

    https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/ "However, there is one crucial difference between the way in which Apple
    and Google devices carry out this task - and that's where the privacy issue arises."

    Keep beating on that. What you're missing (big picture) is that these
    people are using words like "crucial" and this is causing neurons to
    fire brightly in your head. There is nothing important happening - it's
    just happening differently. The contrast is being exploited because the trigger words cause you to go bananas and that is good to get articles
    seen and linked and copied when there is little of consequence actually happening.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 17:48:40 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:33:55 GMT :

    Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
    There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
    broadcast information.

    That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.

    Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.

    See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.
    --
    Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker (such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
    proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
    uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 17:37:03 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Alan Browne wrote on Thu, 30 May 2024 19:18:55 -0400 :

    The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
    SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.

    The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.

    Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
    show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.

    Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
    (in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).

    And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).

    Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act
    of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in
    the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).

    While you're frantically desperate to fabricate excuses for Apple's vulnerabilities, you don't ever show any understanding of them.

    Notes in the sig given Apple religious zealots don't understand anything.
    --
    Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker (such as a Google or Apple transit vehicle - depending on how its code is written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
    proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
    uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    you might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
    about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 17:46:31 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:33:55 GMT :

    Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
    There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
    broadcast information.

    That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.

    Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.

    See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.
    --
    Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker (such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
    proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
    uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    you might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried
    about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 17:53:50 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:31:36 GMT :

    Gullible schmucks eat it up.

    It's clear you don't understand the issue

    You're projecting. It is you who does not understand how WiFi works.

    And yet, the fact is, I do understand, and more importantly, you do not.
    *Your only goal is to defend all of Apple's flaws, to the death.*

    Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
    packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
    (such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is written) from pulling the packets out of a netstumbler/wireshark wardriving scan, but the mere act of purposefully hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 17:58:14 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:37:35 GMT :

    Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
    by SSID and BSSID.

    Every excuse

    There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.

    If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why does nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?

    Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
    packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker
    (such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is written) from pulling the packets out of a netstumbler/wireshark wardriving scan, but the mere act of purposefully hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    *Or is it that your only goal is to defend Apple's flaws, to the death?*

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 17:50:57 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:36:46 GMT :

    the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable

    Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.

    And yet, it's not.

    Which proves beyond question what you Apple zealots don't understand.

    *All you wish to do is defend Apple's vulnerabilities to the death.*

    See technical proof in the sig proving sheer ignorance of the zealots.
    --
    Note 1: The hidden broadcast won't hide the BSSID from a seasoned attacker (such as a Google or Apple tracking vehicle - depending on how its code is written); but the mere act of hiding the SSID broadcast packet has been
    proven to prevent the normal users' device (i.e., mobile phones) from
    uploading your BSSID using the typical software that we are speaking about.

    Note 2: Since the Apple religious zealots act only out of franctic
    desperation to make excuses for all Apple's vulnerabilities, it should be
    noted that an intelligent person knows the difference between the upload of
    the BSSID (which is a first-order issue) vs the deletion of the BSSID from
    the Internet databases (which requires second-order software processing).

    Note 3: There's no way the Apple religious zealots will understand the two notes above, but for the intelligent people reading this thread, it should
    be noted that if you do hide your broadcast packets, then you often might
    want to set your client (such as a phone) to "remember" and "reconnect";
    but this has other issues - where the Apple zealots won't understand but
    adults might understand that the "remember" is fine (unless you're worried about your phone being stolen) but the "automatic reconnect" should be
    turned off because that setting causes the phone to seek out the named AP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 15:12:41 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 13:37, Andrew wrote:
    Alan Browne wrote on Thu, 30 May 2024 19:18:55 -0400 :

    The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
    SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE BILLIONS.

    The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.

    I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
    is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.

    But you do you: desperately misinform and spread BS

    Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
    show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.

    Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
    (in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).

    Completely irrelevant. But play all you want.


    And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).

    You're clearly not following.


    Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act
    of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).

    Not only understand it, have reliable knowledge that hardly anyone uses it.

    You're really grasping.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 14:48:51 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On Thu, 30 May 2024 17:29:15 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Apple trigger word got ya huh?

    You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.

    Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication reported the problem is the specific vulnerable way that only Apple alone
    has chosen to implement their location services without ever testing it.

    Not Google. Not Wigle. Not Mozilla. Only Apple. [https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
    "Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
    only Apple's location services work"

    [https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
    "The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

    [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
    "We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

    [https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
    "An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."

    [https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
    "Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

    [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
    "In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 14:52:28 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 21:30:37 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy hole

    A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy hole".

    Only Apple

    Nope, sorry.

    Nobody but you denies what even Apple doesn't deny.

    Why do you do that?

    [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
    "There is one crucial difference between the way in which
    Apple and Google devices carry out this task
    and that's exactly where the privacy issue arises."

    [https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
    "Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
    only Apple's location services work"

    [https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
    "The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

    [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
    "We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

    [https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
    "An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."
    [https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
    "Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

    [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
    "In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

    Why do you deny what nobody but you denies (not even Apple denies it)?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oscar Mayer@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 14:43:53 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 30 May 2024 21:30:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    The problem is Apple.

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.

    No you can't.

    Yes, you can.

    Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication reported the problem is the specific way that only Apple has implemented
    the vulnerability. Not Google. Not Wigle. Not Mozilla. Only Apple.

    [https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html]
    "Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
    only Apple's location services work"

    [https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330]
    "The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, or WPS"

    [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/]
    "We need to understand Apple devices figure out locations differently"

    [https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/]
    "An unrestricted Apple API endpoint allows for easy tracking."

    [https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/]
    "Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

    [https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975]
    "In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Fri May 31 15:20:13 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 14:48, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Thu, 30 May 2024 17:29:15 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

    Apple trigger word got ya huh?

    You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.

    It's not flawed. It's doing as designed. Do keep up.


    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 15:17:59 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 13:58, Andrew wrote:
    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:37:35 GMT :

    Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers
    by SSID and BSSID.

    Every excuse

    There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as their
    BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant troll.

    If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why does

    Your wording shows you're searching the web and employing the results badly.

    nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually work?

    Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned attacker

    Seasoned attacker? A CHILD can get at the BSSID when the SSID is
    hidden, you fool.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Fri May 31 15:19:44 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 14:43, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 21:30:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    The problem is Apple.

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.

    No you can't.

    Yes, you can.

    Every government, security researcher and even Apple centric publication reported the problem is the specific way that only Apple has implemented
    the vulnerability.

    Your new trigger word is "vulnerability". It is not the big boogie man
    you desperately are painting it to be.

    By your reaction if you heard of a shoplifter at a local store you'd be screaming for protection against murderers.


    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Browne@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 15:15:34 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 13:46, Andrew wrote:
    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:33:55 GMT :

    Of course it is. It's broadcast by routers. It's public information.
    There is no "privacy violation" inherent in looking at publicly
    broadcast information.

    That sentence proves beyond any doubt that these ignorant uneducated Apple religious zealots have absolutely no understanding of how broadcasts work.

    Their only desperate goal is to defend Apple's flaws to the death.

    See technical notes in the sig since adults understand what they do not.

    I did leave out that the SSID can be muted. But that is not at all
    relevant to the discussion.

    It is only you throwing more distraction at things to try (desperately)
    to score points.

    There is a rock out there missing what should be under it. Go back.

    --
    Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
    - some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 20:11:04 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:36:46 GMT :

    the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable

    Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.

    And yet, it's not.

    Yes it is. That's why it's called a "WAN-facing BSSID", numbskull.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 20:12:41 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Alan Browne <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 2024-05-31 13:58, Andrew wrote:
    Jolly Roger wrote on 30 May 2024 21:37:35 GMT :

    Wigle.net and other databases also let you look up routers by SSID
    and BSSID.

    Every excuse

    There is no excuse. WiFi routers broadcast their SSIDs as well as
    their BSSIDs to the world. That's how WiFi works, you ignorant
    troll.

    If I'm ignorant and you know so much about how broadcasts work, why
    does

    Your wording shows you're searching the web and employing the results
    badly.

    nothing you have ever said show any indication of how they actually
    work?

    Note 1: While almost every router has an option to hide the broadcast
    packets, that hidden broadcast setting won't prevent a seasoned
    attacker

    Seasoned attacker? A CHILD can get at the BSSID when the SSID is
    hidden, you fool.

    He very clearly knows very little about how WiFi actually works.
    Dunning-Kruger in full effect.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Fri May 31 20:17:42 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 21:30:37 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    Since even the Apple shills directly blame Apple for this privacy
    hole

    A database of publicly-broadcasted WiFi BSSIDs is not a "privacy
    hole".

    Only Apple

    Nope, sorry.

    Nobody but you

    Nobody but you trolls the Apple newsgroups all day every day like their miserable lives depend on it. You are a sad, little loser, Arlen.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 20:18:42 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:
    Alan Browne wrote on Thu, 30 May 2024 19:18:55 -0400 :

    The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
    SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE
    BILLIONS.

    The fact is

    You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face, little Arlen.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 13:26:52 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31 13:18, Jolly Roger wrote:
    On 2024-05-31, Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:
    Alan Browne wrote on Thu, 30 May 2024 19:18:55 -0400 :

    The "general" case is that it is absolutely not an Apple issue.
    SSID/BSSID's are OPENLY AND LOUDLY BROADCAST WORLDIWDE IN THE
    BILLIONS.

    The fact is

    You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face, little Arlen.


    And we know this because they so very often have done.

    :-)

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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Oscar Mayer on Fri May 31 20:16:07 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Oscar Mayer <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 30 May 2024 21:30:12 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

    The problem is Apple.

    Yes, you can do that with Wigle as well.

    No you can't.

    Yes, you can.

    Every government blah blah blah

    Nothing you can say will ever change the FACT (you love misusing that
    word) that anyone can pull up wigle.net, search for any WiFi router, and
    see the BSSID of it and every router around it on a neat little map.
    According to you this is a YUGE "vulnerability" - it's not. It's just
    public information made accessible by an API and service, which is
    exactly what Apple's service is. And the fact that you don't know this
    says all we need to know about you. Cry harder, little Arlen. Your troll
    is going nowhere.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 21:48:31 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 31 May 2024 15:12:41 -0400 :

    The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what.

    I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
    is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.

    And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.

    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>
    The attack risk stems from Apple's WiFi-based Positioning System, aka WPS

    But you do you: desperately misinform and spread BS

    And yet, I'm quoting the cites and all you're doing is denying all facts.

    <https://www.macworld.com/article/2343297/apple-wi-fi-network-wps-vulnerability-location-services-leak.html>
    Researchers have discovered a crucial vulnerability in the way
    only Apple's location services work - no other platforms have it.

    Every desperate excuse you make for the flaws in Apple's implementation
    show you not understand what only Apple does that's different here.

    Worse, you were not aware the outward facing MAC address cannot be cloned
    (in almost all routers and particularly in the tested travel routers).

    Completely irrelevant.

    It's obvious that neither you, nor Jolly Roger, has any understanding of
    why this huge Apple-only vulnerability is caused by Apple & Apple alone.

    <https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf>
    The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for
    which Apple's WPS was designed. Individuals who own no Apple products,
    for instance, can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having
    Apple's flawed and highly insecure devices come within Wi-Fi range"

    But play all you want.

    You're the one defending Apple's privacy holes to the death, not me.

    <https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/24/apple-location-services-vulnerability/>
    There is one crucial difference between the competent way in which
    Apple and Google devices carry out this task and how Apple alone
    chose to implement it and that's exactly where the privacy issue arises.

    And you were not aware that the SSID is meaningless for this exploit, other >> than the workaround that Apple suggested (of appending _nomac to the SSID).

    You're clearly not following.

    Heh heh heh... it's clear you've never even heard of a BSSID in your life,
    and now you're claiming you know more than Apple does about this problem by saying it's not caused by the way Apple handles the database queries.

    <https://securityboulevard.com/2024/05/apple-wi-fi-location-privacy-richixbw/>
    Apple's unrestricted WPS API endpoint is why this flaw is so serious

    Furthermore, you're still not aware that a "hidden broadcast" has been a
    feature of nearly every router since the dawn of Wi-Fi, where the mere act >> of clicking that checkbox prevents the BSSID from being *uploaded* to the
    Google and Apple and Mozilla and Wigle databases, by default. (See notes in >> the sig, given the Apple religious zealots don't understand this issue).

    Not only understand it, have reliable knowledge that hardly anyone uses it.

    It's no longer shocking that you Apple religious fundamentalists are making excuses for what even Apple hasn't denied is a flaw caused only by Apple.

    <https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/>
    "Anyone can exploit Apple's flawed WiFi-based positioning system (WPS)*

    You're really grasping.

    And yet, I'm the one who is supplying cites for every single fact I speak.
    <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>
    "In this work, we show that Apple's flawed WPS can too easily be abused"

    All you're doing is defending all of Apple's privacy flaws, to the death.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 21:48:26 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 20:18:42 GMT :

    You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face

    And yet, I've provided almost a dozen cites of fact, Jolly Roger.

    All you did was brazenly deny every fact about Apple that you hate.

    Not only is that a lot of facts that you hate about Apple, but even Apple
    does not disagree with the fact that their WPS implementation is flawed.

    I've studied you strange Apple religious fundamentalists, to conclude
    you are herd animals - with no adult capacity to make your own choices.

    Hence, *you defend Apple, to the death* no matter what.

    Even when Apple itself admits to the fact that these flaws are serious.

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 22:03:39 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 31 May 2024 15:15:34 -0400 :

    I did leave out that the SSID can be muted. But that is not at all
    relevant to the discussion.

    It wasn't surprising that you Apple religious extremists had no adult understanding of what the difference is between an SSID & a BSSID, nor that
    you Apple religious zealots had no inkling that the MAC-address cloning
    feature isn't going to solve anything - simply because most routers don't
    allow you to change the MAC address of the Wi-Fi access point that Apple
    WPS saves.

    <https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/23/apple_wifi_positioning_system/>
    "The threat applies even to users that do not own devices for which the
    WPSes are designed - individuals who own no Apple products, for instance,
    can have their AP in Apple's WPS merely by having Apple devices come
    within Wi-Fi transmission range."

    It is only you throwing more distraction at things to try (desperately)
    to score points.

    The only 'point' I'm scoring, are the cites to the facts of the matter.
    <https://www.cs.umd.edu/~dml/papers/wifi-surveillance-sp24.pdf>
    In this work, we show that Apples WPS implementation can easily
    be abused to create a serious privacy threat on a global scale.

    What's no longer shocking is you Apple religious fanatics deny all facts
    about Apple that you hate - which - unfortunately - is a lot of facts.

    <https://www.bizcommunity.com/article/apple-may-have-turned-wi-fi-routers-into-a-privacy-threat-239637a>
    "Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
    significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based
    Positioning System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers
    to track devices globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS
    operates, raising serious privacy concerns."

    The adult question to ask of you is why you brazenly deny these facts?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 22:03:28 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:
    Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 31 May 2024 15:12:41 -0400 :

    The fact is you're defending Apple's holes, to the death, no matter what. >>
    I'm not defending what Apple do. What Apple do is their choice and it
    is no more harmful than what others do. It's different. That's all.

    And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.

    The "privacy vulnerability" of being able to look up a router in a
    database and get the BSSID of it and all nearby routers - which isn't
    exclusive to Apple's database at all. 🤡

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 21:52:43 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 20:11:04 GMT :

    the WAN-facing BSSID is unique to the router and unchangeable

    Irrelevant. It is broadcast to the world. No privacy issue here.

    And yet, it's not.

    Yes it is. That's why it's called a "WAN-facing BSSID", numbskull.

    It's no longer shocking that you have never heard of MAC cloning in your
    life - and worse - that you actually think MAC cloning will work here.

    There's a reason Apple themselves agreed this is a very serious flaw in
    Apple's WPS implementation and why Starlink has already implemented a fix.

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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 22:11:04 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 22:01:51 GMT :

    And have the shitty evening you deserve.

    All that vitriol... simply because I cited a proven fact you don't like.

    <https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
    *Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

    "Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
    significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
    System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
    globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
    serious privacy concerns."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 22:09:07 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 22:03:28 GMT :

    And yet, no other company except Apple has this huge privacy vulnerability.

    The "privacy vulnerability" of being able to look up a router in a
    database and get the BSSID of it and all nearby routers - which isn't exclusive to Apple's database at all.

    The fact you make that claim is proof you do not understand the flaw.

    <https://www.bizcommunity.com/article/apple-may-have-turned-wi-fi-routers-into-a-privacy-threat-239637a>
    "Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
    significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based
    Positioning System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers
    to track devices globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS
    operates, raising serious privacy concerns."

    There's must be reasons Apple religious extremists deny all facts
    that these religious fundamentalists hate about Apple products.

    One of those reasons you just proved, which is you can't understand
    these privacy issues at the level that any normal adult should.

    <https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
    *Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Andrew on Fri May 31 22:01:51 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    On 2024-05-31, Andrew <[email protected]> wrote:
    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 20:18:42 GMT :

    You wouldn't know a fact if it slapped you in the face

    And yet, blah blah blah blah

    Get fucked, little Arlen. And have the shitty evening you deserve.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri May 31 22:14:58 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Jolly Roger wrote on 31 May 2024 20:16:07 GMT :

    It's just
    public information made accessible by an API and service, which is
    exactly what Apple's service is. And the fact that you don't know this
    says all we need to know about you.

    And yet, everything you just said, is dead wrong, and easily proven so.

    "Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
    significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
    System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
    globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
    serious privacy concerns."

    <https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
    *Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

    The question here is why do you Apple religious extremists deny every fact about Apple products that you hate - yet which you don't even understand?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andrew@21:1/5 to Alan Browne on Fri May 31 22:16:18 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy, alt.internet.wireless

    Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 31 May 2024 15:20:13 -0400 :

    You're the one making excuse after excuse for Apple's flawed coding.

    It's not flawed. It's doing as designed. Do keep up.

    The question here is why do you Apple religious extremists deny every fact about Apple products that you hate - yet which you don't even understand?

    "Researchers from the University of Maryland have uncovered a
    significant privacy vulnerability in Apple's Wi-Fi-based Positioning
    System (WPS). This vulnerability enables attackers to track devices
    globally by exploiting the way Apple's WPS operates, raising
    serious privacy concerns."

    <https://cyberinsider.com/apples-wi-fi-based-positioning-system-is-a-privacy-nightmare/>
    *Apple's Wi-Fi-Based Positioning System is a Privacy Nightmare*

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=B6rg_Lorenz?=@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 1 07:54:55 2024
    XPost: alt.privacy

    Am 29.05.24 um 21:01 schrieb Alan Browne:
    On 2024-05-28 17:37, Oscar Mayer wrote:
    On Tue, 28 May 2024 00:37:49 -0600, Charlie wrote:

    Surveillance Risk: Apple's WiFi-Based Positioning System
    <https://www.govinfosecurity.com/surveillance-risk-apples-wifi-based-positioning-system-a-25330>

    Why would Apple design a system so incredibly horrific against privacy?

    This is a real "nothing to see here" piece of nonsense. Run for the
    hills! Lock up your daughters!

    You are a nymshifting Troll and idiot. It is bitter that you landed in everyone's killfile isn't it?

    From [email protected]
    to [email protected]


    --
    "Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

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