Zelensky's five moves that set off Trump

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky angered Donald Trump so much
during the peace talks with Russia that Trump was on the verge of
withdrawing American military support from Ukraine, three U.S.
officials familiar with the discussions tell Axios.
...
...
The U.S. insistence on claiming a share of Ukraine's mineral rights
has been compared to a "mafia shakedown" by liberal critics, who point
out that the country would lose land and mineral rights and get little
in return.

"It's a sh*t sandwich," a Trump administration official acknowledged

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/21/zelensky-trump-five-moves-ukraine-russia

T-Borg is selling out Ukraine...

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JAB wrote:

Zelensky's five moves that set off Trump

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky angered Donald Trump so
much during the peace talks with Russia that Trump was on the
verge of withdrawing American military support from Ukraine,
three U.S. officials familiar with the discussions tell Axios.
...
...
The U.S. insistence on claiming a share of Ukraine's mineral
rights has been compared to a "mafia shakedown" by liberal
critics, who point out that the country would lose land and
mineral rights and get little in return.

T-Borg is selling out Ukraine...

I don't know if Trump is selling out Ukraine or just trying to
negotiate a good deal for the US, but if the USA is sending
billions of dollars in aid and military assistance to Ukraine to
help them defend themselves I think it's reasonable to expect
that the US get something back in return... there's no such
thing as a free lunch, right? How can American's expect their
country to keep 'donating' money to what is essentially a
bottomless pit at the moment?

OTOH, I would like to think that the whole war and people's
interest in helping Ukraine out wasn't all about the minerals
under the ground in that part of the world though... but of
course, don't you know it probably was.

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On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 20:17:50 GMT, "Blueshirt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

I think it's reasonable to expect
that the US get something back in return

"Under the Marshall Plan, the United States contributed $13.3 billion
in aid--approximately $150 billion in today's dollars--to 16 European
nations between 1948 and 1951"

https://diplomacy.state.gov/online-exhibits/diplomacy-is-our-mission/development/the-marshall-plan/

whole war and people's interest in helping Ukraine
out wasn't all about the minerals

Russia's expansionism could have been about minerals also; keep in
mind how many children were stolen.

The Art of the Deal is pure fiction when "It's a sh*t sandwich."

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On Fri, 21 Feb 2025, JAB wrote:

Zelensky's five moves that set off Trump

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky angered Donald Trump so much
during the peace talks with Russia that Trump was on the verge of
withdrawing American military support from Ukraine, three U.S.
officials familiar with the discussions tell Axios.
...
...
The U.S. insistence on claiming a share of Ukraine's mineral rights
has been compared to a "mafia shakedown" by liberal critics, who point
out that the country would lose land and mineral rights and get little
in return.

"It's a sh*t sandwich," a Trump administration official acknowledged

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/21/zelensky-trump-five-moves-ukraine-russia

T-Borg is selling out Ukraine...

Selling out? Acquiring you surely must mean?

As for the business transaction it is highly unethical. On the other hand, Ukraine obviously only has to honor it as long as they want to, and
once/if they find a better bid from the EU, are perfectly free to cancel
it and send home any US administrators.

If I was Zelensky, I'd shop around and see how many military troops the EU would station in Ukraine along the borders, in return for say 30% of the mineral rights or something like that.

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On Fri, 21 Feb 2025, JAB wrote:

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 20:17:50 GMT, "Blueshirt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

I think it's reasonable to expect
that the US get something back in return

"Under the Marshall Plan, the United States contributed $13.3 billion
in aid--approximately $150 billion in today's dollars--to 16 European
nations between 1948 and 1951"

https://diplomacy.state.gov/online-exhibits/diplomacy-is-our-mission/development/the-marshall-plan/

whole war and people's interest in helping Ukraine
out wasn't all about the minerals

Russia's expansionism could have been about minerals also; keep in
mind how many children were stolen.

The Art of the Deal is pure fiction when "It's a sh*t sandwich."

China and russia are busy dividing africa between them, while the US, and
EU are squabbling over ukraine.

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JAB wrote:

On Fri, 21 Feb 2025 20:17:50 GMT, "Blueshirt"
<[email protected]> wrote:

I think it's reasonable to expect that the
US get something back in return

"Under the Marshall Plan, the United States contributed $13.3
billion in aid--approximately $150 billion in today's
dollars--to 16 European nations between 1948 and 1951"

https://diplomacy.state.gov/online-exhibits/diplomacy-is-our-mission/development/the-marshall-plan/


You do know that the Marshall Plan was designed to ensure
America got something back, right? There were conditions and
commitments attached to the grants which had to be agreed to by
the receiving nations. (We help you rebuild your country, you buy
our goods... and stuff like that.) They were generous payments
but they also turned out to be very good investments for the USA
in the long run.

No American taxpayer should want to see their money going in to
the bottomless pit of an endless war in Ukraine that's like a
heavy truck stuck in deep mud. It can't go forward, it can't go
back. Well, Donald Trump looks like he's going to give it a big
shove, so one way or another there is going to be some movement!
Again, in the long run I'm sure it'll be a good investment for
the USA.

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On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 00:03:45 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

If I was Zelensky, I'd shop around and see how many military troops the EU >would station in Ukraine along the borders, in return for say 30% of the >mineral rights or something like that.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov - Rejects Proposed European
Troop Deployments to Ukraine
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47359

Zelenskyy is well aware that "a ceasefire can be a trap," says Evelyn
Farkas, a former Pentagon official in the Obama administration and now executive director of the McCain Institute, a nonpartisan organization
with programs focusing on democracy and human rights.
...
...
Russia is no stranger to using ceasefire deals not as the basis of a
lasting peace, but to further its short-term military and political
aims, according to Plokhy, author of Chernobyl Roulette: War in the
Nuclear Disaster Zone. That's what the Kremlin did in Chechnya in two
separate conflicts that spanned some 15 years, from 1994-2009, he
says.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/21/nx-s1-5302560/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-trump-putin

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On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 00:25:28 GMT, "Blueshirt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

You do know that the Marshall Plan was designed to ensure
America got something back, right?

Please, cite your source
=======================================
Belgian economic historian Herman Van der Wee concludes the Marshall
Plan was a "great success":

It gave a new impetus to reconstruction in Western Europe and made
a decisive contribution to the renewal of the transport system, the modernization of industrial and agricultural equipment, the resumption
of normal production, the raising of productivity, and the
facilitating of intra-European trade.[27]
...
...
A common American interpretation of the program's role in European
recovery was expressed by Paul Hoffman, head of the Economic
Cooperation Administration, in 1949 when he told Congress Marshall aid
had provided the "critical margin" on which other investment needed
for European recovery depended.[25] The Marshall Plan was one of the
first elements of European integration, as it erased trade barriers
and set up institutions to coordinate the economy on a continental
level--that is, it stimulated the total political reconstruction of
Western Europe.[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

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On Fri, 21 Feb 2025, JAB wrote:

On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 00:03:45 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

If I was Zelensky, I'd shop around and see how many military troops the EU >> would station in Ukraine along the borders, in return for say 30% of the
mineral rights or something like that.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov - Rejects Proposed European
Troop Deployments to Ukraine
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47359

Zelenskyy is well aware that "a ceasefire can be a trap," says Evelyn
Farkas, a former Pentagon official in the Obama administration and now executive director of the McCain Institute, a nonpartisan organization
with programs focusing on democracy and human rights.
...
...
Russia is no stranger to using ceasefire deals not as the basis of a
lasting peace, but to further its short-term military and political
aims, according to Plokhy, author of Chernobyl Roulette: War in the
Nuclear Disaster Zone. That's what the Kremlin did in Chechnya in two separate conflicts that spanned some 15 years, from 1994-2009, he
says.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/21/nx-s1-5302560/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-trump-putin

Of course! Only a fool would trust Putin. Also note that they are not negotiating about peace here, they are negotiating for a window in which
both combatants can recharge their batteries, and then continue the war at
the most opportune moment.

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US could cut Ukraine's access to Starlink internet services over
minerals, say sources

US negotiators told Ukraine US could shutoff Starlink if minerals
deal not reached
SpaceX-owned satellite internet service vital for Ukraine
Zelenskiy says U.S. and Ukraine working on an agreement

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-could-cut-ukraines-access-starlink-internet-services-over-minerals-say-2025-02-22/

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JAB wrote:

On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 00:25:28 GMT, "Blueshirt"
<[email protected]> wrote:

You do know that the Marshall Plan was designed to ensure
America got something back, right?

Please, cite your source
=======================================

Assuming they didn't teach you about the trade benefits to the
USA of the Marshall Plan at school, try reading the link you
provided fully... [Implementation]

In a nutshell though, the grants to help European recovery and
rebuild European industries were also designed to incentivize
those European countries into buying American goods and raw
materials... especially oil. However to do that, European
infrastructure had to be rebuilt first. As if you have no
factories to make stuff there's no need for the raw materials to
do so. The European recovery grants could not be spent
willy-nilly on whatever the receiving nations wanted to. Which
is just as well, as some nations would probably have squandered
the money!

Belgian economic historian Herman Van der Wee concludes the
Marshall Plan was a "great success":

It gave a new impetus to reconstruction in Western Europe
and made a decisive contribution to the renewal of the
transport system, the modernization of industrial and
agricultural equipment, the resumption of normal production,
the raising of productivity, and the facilitating of
intra-European trade.[27] ...
...
A common American interpretation of the program's role in
European recovery was expressed by Paul Hoffman, head of the
Economic Cooperation Administration, in 1949 when he told
Congress Marshall aid had provided the "critical margin" on
which other investment needed for European recovery
depended.[25] The Marshall Plan was one of the first elements
of European integration, as it erased trade barriers and set
up institutions to coordinate the economy on a continental
level--that is, it stimulated the total political
reconstruction of Western Europe.[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

It was a great success for Europe, and a reconstructed Europe
then became a market for American goods. Which in turn helped
modernise a war torn Europe even further. win/win

There in no such thing as a free lunch, and never has been.

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On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:46:30 +0000, "Blueshirt"
<[email protected]> wrote:

It was a great success for Europe, and a reconstructed Europe
then became a market for American goods. Which in turn helped
modernise a war torn Europe even further. win/win

a reconstructed Europe
then became a market for American goods

Initially yes, but long term no...Europe had to rebuild its
infrastructure.

Example

In 1949, VW sold only two Beetles in the United States.

In 1950, VW sold 100,000 Beetles out of its rebuilt Wolfsburg factory.
In 1955, VW formed Volkswagen of America to standardize sales and
service.
=============
VW Sweeps America
1949-1963
https://www.plosin.com/beatbegins/projects/haine/50.htm

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'It's blackmail': Ukrainians react to Trump demand for $500bn share of
minerals

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/22/its-blackmail-ukrainians-react-to-trump-demand-for-500bn-share-of-minerals

Map of where the minerals are thought to be located.

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On Sat, 22 Feb 2025, JAB wrote:

US could cut Ukraine's access to Starlink internet services over
minerals, say sources

US negotiators told Ukraine US could shutoff Starlink if minerals
deal not reached
SpaceX-owned satellite internet service vital for Ukraine
Zelenskiy says U.S. and Ukraine working on an agreement

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-could-cut-ukraines-access-starlink-internet-services-over-minerals-say-2025-02-22/

I did a quick google and found at least 4 other companies offering
satellite internet.

In addition, Nokia and Ericsson could swoop in helping to build quick replacement networks in Ukraine.

I hope zelensky calls some other countries quickly. As for the mineral resources, what I do not get, is why Zelensky doesn't offer europe or the
AU or why not both, a 40% deal on their minerals instead of Trumps 50% in return for troops?

I mean... what the heck... Zelensky could call some good mercenaries and
offer 20% of the mineral value to those, and he'd have plenty of
mercenaries moving into ukraine. Why not cut a deal, take the occupied
areas, and you'll get to run it for 5 years and extract taxes.

I can see plenty of african war lords not turning down that deal! =D

I find it sad that the US is destroying the trust it has built up since
the end of ww2. =(

How will countries come to trust the US again in the future?

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 00:28:01 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

As for the mineral resources

Haven't figured it out?

Unverified quid pro quo

A. Someone donates 300 million to Rs elections

1. Ukraine's lithium deposits are among biggest in Europe

2. Someone needs lithium for vehicles and grid battery storage

3. "Uncle Sam" will turn off Sat service unless Ukraine signs a
mineral agreement.

4. "While Australia has long been a top-producing country when it
comes to lithium, China has risen quickly to become not only the top
lithium processor and refiner, but also a major miner of the
commodity. In fact, China was the third largest lithium-producing
country in 2023 in terms of mine production, behind Australia and
Chile"

https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/battery-metals-investing/lithium-investing/top-lithium-producers/

5. January 21, 2025 "Lithium in particular has been top of mind for
CEO Elon Musk" ... In a mid-2023...."Lithium prices went absolutely
insane there for a while," he said. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/where-does-tesla-get-its-lithium

It might appear Musk wants Ukraine's minerals for two of his companies

Btw, why would "Trump to shut down all 8,000 EV charging ports at
federal govt buildings?" He's not a Lithium man, but doing this would
cause EV vehicles to seek other EV charging stations, like Musk's.

https://electrek.co/2025/02/21/trump-to-shut-down-all-8000-ev-charging-ports-at-federal-govt-buildings/

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JAB wrote:

'It's blackmail': Ukrainians react to Trump demand for $500bn
share of minerals

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/22/its-blackmail-ukrainians-react-to-trump-demand-for-500bn-share-of-minerals

Map of where the minerals are thought to be located.

Some sort of trade deal seems logical as an eventuality. We help
you, you help us... That's pretty much how international trade
relations work.

Now, the way Donald Trump is going about it is a bit heavy
handed... international diplomacy doesn't seems to be his forte.
He seems to like breaking eggs to make Omelettes... BUT, if the
Omelette results in a good deal for the USA then he'll be happy
with that as I think he sees running the USA the same as running
a business.

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 12:24:04 GMT, "Blueshirt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

BUT, if the Omelette results in a good deal for the USA

<https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:e5bl34y4m4zap3g6zg2wxpze/bafkreignfmwiafpirgydigvx6nw3dycitob2raz7vfae7lzntsudcqakfu@jpeg>

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2025, Blueshirt wrote:

JAB wrote:

'It's blackmail': Ukrainians react to Trump demand for $500bn
share of minerals

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/22/its-blackmail-ukrainians-react-to-trump-demand-for-500bn-share-of-minerals

Map of where the minerals are thought to be located.

Some sort of trade deal seems logical as an eventuality. We help
you, you help us... That's pretty much how international trade
relations work.

Now, the way Donald Trump is going about it is a bit heavy
handed... international diplomacy doesn't seems to be his forte.
He seems to like breaking eggs to make Omelettes... BUT, if the
Omelette results in a good deal for the USA then he'll be happy
with that as I think he sees running the USA the same as running
a business.

This also makes him easy to manipulate. Ukraine can say yes to what ever
deal he wants, in return for troops on the ground. Once they had the
chance to build up their own tropps, they send them home and cancel the
deal.

I doubt that Trump would start a war against Ukraine. ;)

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 22:27:22 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

I doubt that Trump would start a war against Ukraine.

Why not, he wants Canada and Greenland...

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D wrote:

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025, Blueshirt wrote:

Now, the way Donald Trump is going about it is a bit heavy
handed... international diplomacy doesn't seems to be his
forte. He seems to like breaking eggs to make omelettes...
BUT, if the omelette results in a good deal for the USA then
he'll be happy with that as I think he sees running the USA
the same as running a business.

This also makes him easy to manipulate. Ukraine can say yes to
what ever deal he wants, in return for troops on the ground.
Once they had the chance to build up their own tropps, they
send them home and cancel the deal.

Agree a deal with Donald Trump and then break it?

To quote someone famous...

ALL HELL WOULD BREAK OUT!

I doubt that Trump would start a war against Ukraine. ;)

Maybe not a full scale war militarily but if Ukraine reneged on
a 'deal' then most definitely a trade war of some sort, and they
could kiss goodbye to any aid financial or otherwise. Let's see
how good the EU would be at stepping-up to fill the gap then...
so no, I doubt Zelenskyy would want to go down that road.

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On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 10:30:10 GMT, "Blueshirt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

a deal with Donald Trump and then break it?

Most of his life he has been "serving" customers who paid for
this/that service/property.

He is using Project 2025's script, and those EOs are written by
others. He has no vested interest in minerals, but at least a few
others (or the one) in his sphere would
======================

January 21, 2025 "Lithium in particular has been top of mind for
CEO Elon Musk" ... In a mid-2023...."Lithium prices went absolutely
insane there for a while," he said. https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/where-does-tesla-get-its-lithium

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On Mon, 24 Feb 2025, Blueshirt wrote:

D wrote:

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025, Blueshirt wrote:

Now, the way Donald Trump is going about it is a bit heavy
handed... international diplomacy doesn't seems to be his
forte. He seems to like breaking eggs to make omelettes...
BUT, if the omelette results in a good deal for the USA then
he'll be happy with that as I think he sees running the USA
the same as running a business.

This also makes him easy to manipulate. Ukraine can say yes to
what ever deal he wants, in return for troops on the ground.
Once they had the chance to build up their own tropps, they
send them home and cancel the deal.

Agree a deal with Donald Trump and then break it?

To quote someone famous...

ALL HELL WOULD BREAK OUT!

Doubt it.

I doubt that Trump would start a war against Ukraine. ;)

Maybe not a full scale war militarily but if Ukraine reneged on
a 'deal' then most definitely a trade war of some sort, and they

What trade exactly? The US is already threatening to cut off support, and
has cut off a lot of things, so there's really not much more to do. So
that is why ukraine can do what they want. The sword cuts both ways. ;)

could kiss goodbye to any aid financial or otherwise. Let's see
how good the EU would be at stepping-up to fill the gap then...
so no, I doubt Zelenskyy would want to go down that road.

Aid is already cancelled, and Trump has withdrawn support, so not much
more he can do short of invading ukraine, through europe.

So ironically ukraine, due to Trumps actions, have nothing to fear from
Trump himself. His shares are no increasing as well in the eyes of europe, since he's now the under dog, and if he can leverage that skillfully
enough, there shoould be european troops on the ground within a year or
so.

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On Sun, 23 Feb 2025, JAB wrote:

On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 22:27:22 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

I doubt that Trump would start a war against Ukraine.

Why not, he wants Canada and Greenland...

Those are closer. Also note that Canada is trolling, and greenland is just
pure win/win business sense for both the esquimaux and the US, so would be
a great win for everyone.

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On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 23:05:06 +0100, D <[email protected]> wrote:

due to Trumps actions

Is that so ?

https://bsky.app/profile/mcuban.bsky.social/post/3liwu7faj7k2s

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