• IDF: Israel Detaining Farmers

    From Eli the Bearded@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 13 23:25:39 2023
    Note this is a West Bank story not a Gaza story.

    https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1211987812/israel-hamas-west-bank-gaza-war-conflict-idf

    WEST BANK -- There are days when you head out to report a story, and
    you think you know where it's going. And then it spins in an
    entirely different direction.

    This is the story of one such day last Tuesday in the
    Israeli-occupied West Bank -- the other Palestinian territory.

    It's morning as our NPR team is traveling from Tel Aviv to the West
    Bank to see a small town called Deir Istiya, and to meet a
    54-year-old farmer named Ayoub Abuhejleh. When we arrive at his
    home, he invites us inside and makes us Arabic coffee.

    Like many Palestinians in the West Bank, he tells us he hasn't been
    able to access his land and harvest his olives.

    "I planted around 370 olive trees [and] grapes, figs, almonds," he
    tells us.

    It's harvest season, and while his plants are groaning with fruit,
    he says he hasn't been able to harvest a single olive. "We faced a
    little bit of problems before in the harvest season, but in this
    season it's terrible," he says.

    He explains that soldiers with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and
    West Bank settlers have blocked him from his land since the war
    started on Oct. 7, when Hamas fighters attacked Israel.

    While the world has focused on Israel's response in Gaza, violence
    in the West Bank is also spiking. Attacks on Palestinians by the
    Israeli military and settlers are up, according to the UNOCHA, which
    estimates more than 170 Palestinians have been killed and more than
    2,600 injured in the West Bank since the war began.

    The IDF says it is conducting raids on militants. Abuhejleh says
    that when he tries to get to his olive trees, the war is the reason
    Israeli soldiers point to for stopping him. He is convinced they are
    using the war as an excuse to seize Palestinian land.

    Abuhejleh planted his trees in 2011, and this was the first year he
    was going to be able to harvest them. When he went to check on his
    trees Oct. 13, he found the dirt road he normally takes to his
    fields undrivable. He tells us that settlers rolled in with diggers,
    tore up the dirt road to his fields and severed the water lines he'd
    installed -- an accusation that NPR was unable to confirm. He has
    not set foot on his land since.

    "I am raising these olive trees like my children. So it's not the
    issue of income," he says, explaining that he has another full-time
    job with a non-government organization. "It's our land, you know?
    The connection of the trees, the soil, the stones -- this is the
    important [thing]."

    The olive harvest does represent a key supplement for family incomes
    in the West Bank. According to Abuhejleh, many families pass down
    their land for generations. He hopes his children will farm his land
    one day. This is how it works around here, says Dana Sharon, a rabbi
    from a kibbutz in central Israel.

    Rabbi Dana is Israeli and with a group called Rabbis for Human
    Rights. She and her colleague Dani Brodsky, the director of the
    organization's Occupied Palestinian Territory department, have
    joined us on our trip to Abuhejleh's home. Rabbis for Human Rights
    works with Palestinian farmers during the olive harvest to try to
    help farmers access their land safely.

    "There is no other place to be as far as I'm concerned," Sharon
    says. "The way things here are managed or mismanaged is beyond
    awful. I just want to make a very clear statement -- not on my
    behalf, definitely not on behalf of my religion."

    Abuhejleh offers to show us his land -- not walk on it, but just
    glimpse it from a nearby hill. He says he does this often to check
    if his plants have been damaged.

    We follow Abuhejleh in his car down a steep and winding dirt road.
    When we get to the valley, we stop and park. Abuhejleh points to
    tumbled rocks and a gaping hole in the road.

    "So they damaged there, as you see," he says. "Three times they
    damaged the road." The irrigation line that he mentioned is visibly
    cut in two.

    Our team pulls on helmets and flak jackets marked "PRESS" in big
    white letters before we begin to walk with Abuhejleh to the spot
    that he says looks onto his fields. We hear a buzzing sound, and
    when we look up, we spot a drone hovering about 60 feet above us. A
    camera flashes green and red -- it's clear someone's watching. We're
    just not sure if it's Israeli military personnel or settlers.

    As we walk another 100 or so yards, people in uniform emerge from
    behind a rocky hillside. More arrive in an SUV.

    We stop and announce ourselves: "Media. Press." They're clearly
    unhappy with us. Some have their faces covered with balaclavas. Soon
    about a dozen people in uniform are gathering around us -- all of
    them carrying large assault-style guns.

    "OK. So get out of here. Take your legs and go all the way back,"
    one soldier says in Hebrew, pointing to the direction from which we
    came. They tell us we've crossed a barrier, but we point out there
    is no rope, no signs, nothing to indicate that. They insist the area
    is restricted, and it's a time of war.

    Our local producer Sawsan Khalife, along with Rabbi Dana and Brodsky
    try to talk to them in Hebrew. Crosstalk evolves into yelling.
    Abuhejleh is separated from the group, about 20 feet away,
    accompanied by multiple soldiers. They tell us they need to question
    him, and it will only take a few minutes.

    We say we don't want to leave without him. "Can one of our Israeli
    friends stay here?" we ask. The soldiers refuse, and a gun is
    raised. It points straight at us -- and we begin to back away. "Move
    on," we're told.

    Soldiers walk Abuhejleh out of sight around a hill, and as we make
    our way back to where the road was dug up, Rabbi Dana tells us she's
    worried.

    "We've never seen anything like this before," she says. "This is not
    according to any protocol that we're familiar with or are
    experienced with."

    Brodsky begins making calls -- lawyers, the IDF, the local police --
    anyone who might be able to figure out Abuhejleh's status. We call
    our contact with the IDF, who says they will check on the situation.

    We don't want to leave Abuhejleh, and so the waiting begins. What
    was promised as a few minutes becomes 30 minutes. Then 45. Then 90.
    What appears to be the same drone comes back, flying lower, with its
    camera pointed at us.

    Eventually, our IDF contact calls back. He assures us that Abuhejleh
    is safe, and he strongly advises us to leave the area "for our
    safety." So, reluctantly, we do.

    From there, we head to Feras Diab's office, the mayor of Deir
    Istiya. We had called him from the hillside, to see if he could
    help. He tells us he is also a farmer like Abuhejleh, with 160 olive
    trees. He says he has run into the same issues trying to harvest.

    Big portraits of the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and the
    current Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, hang on his
    wall at town hall. We ask the mayor why scenes like the one we just
    witnessed are unfolding in fields all around his town, and why he
    thinks Israeli soldiers are doing this.

    "This is an old thing that we are seeing in a new way," he says in
    Arabic. "Their goal, their aim, is the land. And they're using the
    war in order to seize the land."

    From the mayor's office, we return to Abuhejleh's house to speak to
    his family. It's tense. Everyone is worried. Then, more than five
    hours after Ayoud was detained, a cell phone rings -- he has been
    released.

    Abuhejleh's sister bursts into tears of relief. She tells us in
    Arabic: "You Americans. Look at what's happening to us Arabs here,
    to our people, to our land."

    Abuhejleh's son drives to pick him up, and we wait with his extended
    family -- children, grandchildren, sisters. And then, a celebratory
    horn honking is heard over the hill, coming towards his house.

    Abuhejleh gets out of the car, smiling, and he's rushed by his
    entire family -- his young grandchildren run to him. He hugs and
    kisses them. Some are crying.

    We sit down with Abuhejleh to make sure he's OK and to ask what
    happened after he was separated from us. He tells us that after he
    was led away, blindfolded and handcuffed, he was driven to a
    military office in a nearby settlement where he was mocked and
    questioned for hours.

    "They say it's our land. It's not your land. So you must forget it,"
    he says. Later, when we would ask the IDF why he had been detained,
    they would provide no comment.

    Now that he's home, he assures us he's unharmed. And as we're about
    to leave, we ask if he plans to go back to see his land, even after
    today's incident.

    "I will go back. Don't worry," he says. "They will arrest, and I
    will return back -- until I will fix my land. It's our land."

    Elijah
    ------
    it's a war about land

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JAB@21:1/5 to *@eli.users.panix.com on Mon Nov 13 19:57:23 2023
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:25:39 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

    it's a war about land

    Old news historically...for many warring countries.

    The IDF says it is conducting raids on militants. Abuhejleh says
    that when he tries to get to his olive trees, the war is the reason
    Israeli soldiers point to for stopping him. He is convinced they are
    using the war as an excuse to seize Palestinian land.

    It appears there is some Hamas activity in the West Bank

    'Our wish is to be martyred'" defiant Hamas fighters count their
    losses in West Bank
    ...
    ...
    Jenin has long been a flashpoint between Hamas and Israeli security
    forces, outside the practical control of the Palestinian Authority in
    Ramallah and a stronghold of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. A major and
    bloody operation was launched in the town's main refugee camp in July
    and there have been clashes throughout the summer. These have
    intensified dramatically in the last month.

    My Note - "Jenin is a city in the State of Palestine, in the
    Israeli-occupied West Bank. " https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/funerals-for-west-bank-dead-jenin-israel-hamas-war

    He is convinced they are using the war as an excuse to seize Palestinian land.

    Unknown...but with Hamas fighers afoot there, his opinion may be
    biased.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Retrograde@21:1/5 to Eli the Bearded on Tue Nov 14 16:16:05 2023
    On 2023-11-13, Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
    Note this is a West Bank story not a Gaza story.

    The IDF says it is conducting raids on militants. Abuhejleh says
    that when he tries to get to his olive trees, the war is the reason
    Israeli soldiers point to for stopping him. He is convinced they are
    using the war as an excuse to seize Palestinian land.

    ...
    Elijah
    ------
    it's a war about land


    This story is horrifying, every aspect of it. In a desert land with
    dwindling resources and a burgeoning population, we were told to expect
    this would happen and it's happening.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JAB@21:1/5 to *@eli.users.panix.com on Tue Nov 14 20:20:08 2023
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:25:39 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

    Note this is a West Bank story not a Gaza story.

    News media is generally not informing public of Hamas's behavior

    New York Post
    Stop pretending hospital peril is all on Israel, Joe, and call out
    Hamas' central role in endangering civilians
    Opinion

    The West Bank article was more of a "poor me" story, from an
    individual's perspective. Public is not being informed fully.

    Without knowing of Hamas's behavior, a person is naive.

    In a war, there are consequences...and there will be
    civilians/businesses/etc who get fucked.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From rdh@21:1/5 to JAB on Wed Nov 15 08:10:03 2023
    On 11/14/23 20:20, JAB wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 23:25:39 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

    Note this is a West Bank story not a Gaza story.

    News media is generally not informing public of Hamas's behavior

    New York Post
    Stop pretending hospital peril is all on Israel, Joe, and call out
    Hamas' central role in endangering civilians
    Opinion

    The West Bank article was more of a "poor me" story, from an
    individual's perspective. Public is not being informed fully.

    Without knowing of Hamas's behavior, a person is naive.

    In a war, there are consequences...and there will be
    civilians/businesses/etc who get fucked.

    Are you kidding? The news media is portraying this as entirely the fault
    of Hamas, and the Palestinian people, many of whom never had a chance to
    vote for this government.

    By saying that nobody is calling out Hamas' role, you're either showing
    your ignorance, or just making things up. Either way, you're arguing in
    bad faith.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JAB@21:1/5 to rdh on Wed Nov 15 13:10:54 2023
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:10:03 -0600, rdh <[email protected]ute> wrote:

    Are you kidding?

    RTFP

    New York Post
    Stop pretending hospital peril is all on Israel, Joe, and call out
    Hamas' central role in endangering civilians
    Opinion

    Currently, the implicit reporting is in essence if Israel did a cease
    fire, all of this suffering would be over.
    ---------
    "UN Chief calls for immediate Gaza truce 'in name of humanity' "

    Well noodlehead, then Hamas will do it again....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JAB@21:1/5 to rdh on Wed Nov 15 16:36:37 2023
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:10:03 -0600, rdh <[email protected]ute> wrote:

    Are you kidding?

    This poll does not focus upon on what they know/perceive.



    Is the Israel-Gaza war changing US public attitudes?

    Q. In general, what role do you want the United States to play in
    mediating the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Should the United States?

    Q. How would you describe the Biden administration's policy toward the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

    Q. If the U.S. presidential elections were held today, would you be
    more likely or less likely to vote for President Biden based on his
    stance on the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-the-israel-gaza-war-changing-us-public-attitudes/

    Ditto

    Poll: Majority of Americans sympathize with Israel but growing number
    say military response in Gaza 'too much'

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/poll-majority-of-americans-sympathize-with-israel-but-growing-number-say-military-response-in-gaza-too-much

    I said Hamas's behavior...Kill them Jews and eliminate Israel.

    Show me a poll for the above....stop the war they say, what do they
    want another Groundhog Day (1993)?
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107048/

    Yes, public should be aware Hamas started it...but most are clueless
    of the above.

    So, does a rational person want more Israel-Gaza Groundhog Days?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JAB@21:1/5 to rdh on Wed Nov 15 20:45:05 2023
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:10:03 -0600, rdh <[email protected]ute> wrote:

    Are you kidding?

    Hamas is murdering Palestinian babies in Gaza hospitals

    by Alan Dershowitz, opinion contributor

    Media outlets around the world are showing dead and dying Palestinian
    babies in hospitals -- but what they are not showing is who murdered
    these babies.

    The answer is clear. American intelligence has now revealed that Hamas
    has built its command centers and its tunnels underneath hospitals. It
    has also revealed that Hamas has been stealing fuel intended for
    hospital generators.

    Babies are now dying because Hamas has stolen the fuel to run these
    generators. Babies are also dying because Hamas is using them as human
    shields to protect its murderous terrorists.

    Yet much of the media and the international community continue to
    point the finger of blame at Israel for these dead babies. That only
    encourages Hamas to continue to use its decades-long "dead baby
    strategy," which works because the media continues to show the dead
    babies without explaining the truth about who killed them.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4311335-hamas-is-murdering-palestinian-babies-in-gaza-hospitals/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Retrograde@21:1/5 to JAB on Thu Nov 16 03:08:08 2023
    On 2023-11-16, JAB <[email protected]d> wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 08:10:03 -0600, rdh <[email protected]ute> wrote:
    The answer is clear. American intelligence has now revealed that Hamas
    has built its command centers and its tunnels underneath hospitals. It
    has also revealed that Hamas has been stealing fuel intended for
    hospital generators.

    Liberate Palestine from Hamas. Holy fuck, what a terrible group.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)