• Pardon protections

    From Roy@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 20 21:18:12 2025
    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

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  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Roy on Tue Jan 21 04:59:57 2025
    On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 21:18:12 -0800, Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Roy on Tue Jan 21 08:48:26 2025
    On 1/21/2025 12:18 AM, Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,  In addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,


    They would also still be subject to state charges.

    Also - and especially with vaguely worded or blanket type pardons that
    apply to a whole group of people - nothing would really prevent a
    prosecutor from bringing charges against someone on the premise that
    they weren't weren't part of the group being pardoned and forcing the
    defendant to have to go to the courts to enforce the pardon.

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Jan 21 08:48:58 2025
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions was outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one jurisdiction
    that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that other jurisdiction,
    and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what it was.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Tue Jan 21 10:23:13 2025
    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 08:48:58 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that other jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never went
    back.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Jan 21 15:04:52 2025
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions
    was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what
    it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.

    Countries often have extradition treaties with other countries. Under
    those treaties a country can ask to have one of their citizens returned
    if they are accused of committing a crime. The second country can decide whether to return the person, depending on several factors as outlined in
    the treaty.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 21 15:06:14 2025
    On 1/21/2025 1:23 PM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 08:48:58 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never went back.


    It was pretty common back in the 70s for young men in the US to flee to
    Canada to avoid the military draft. They were eventually all pardoned
    by Jimmy Carter.

    There have also been numerous high-level cases of people fleeing the us
    to avoid prosecution for felony crimes that were not going to be
    prosecuted in other countries. Roman Polanski is a good example.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Rick on Wed Jan 22 08:29:53 2025
    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 15:06:14 -0800, Rick wrote:

    On 1/21/2025 1:23 PM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 08:48:58 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges. >>>>>
    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a >>>>> grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions
    was outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly
    what it was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.


    It was pretty common back in the 70s for young men in the US to flee to Canada to avoid the military draft. They were eventually all pardoned
    by Jimmy Carter.

    There have also been numerous high-level cases of people fleeing the us
    to avoid prosecution for felony crimes that were not going to be
    prosecuted in other countries. Roman Polanski is a good example.

    Without coming across as "that" poster, the OP was about *civil* actions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Wed Jan 22 08:30:14 2025
    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 15:04:52 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges. >>>>>
    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation, In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a >>>>> grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions
    was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what
    it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.

    Countries often have extradition treaties with other countries. Under
    those treaties a country can ask to have one of their citizens returned
    if they are accused of committing a crime. The second country can
    decide whether to return the person, depending on several factors as
    outlined in the treaty.

    Without coming across as "that" poster, the OP was about *civil* actions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Jan 22 09:44:45 2025
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote in news:vmqlmg$101qu$2@dont- email.me:

    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 15:04:52 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal
    charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,
    In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before
    a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions
    was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what
    it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like
    the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.

    Countries often have extradition treaties with other countries. Under
    those treaties a country can ask to have one of their citizens
    returned
    if they are accused of committing a crime. The second country can
    decide whether to return the person, depending on several factors as
    outlined in the treaty.

    Without coming across as "that" poster, the OP was about *civil*
    actions.

    There are also treaties for enforcement of civil judgments.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Wed Jan 22 13:05:00 2025
    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 09:44:45 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote in news:vmqlmg$101qu$2@dont- email.me:

    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 15:04:52 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal
    charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,
    In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before
    a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil motions
    was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly what
    it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like
    the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.

    Countries often have extradition treaties with other countries. Under
    those treaties a country can ask to have one of their citizens
    returned
    if they are accused of committing a crime. The second country can
    decide whether to return the person, depending on several factors as
    outlined in the treaty.

    Without coming across as "that" poster, the OP was about *civil*
    actions.

    There are also treaties for enforcement of civil judgments.

    Now that is news to me ... are they ever used (from a UK perspective)

    Today is a learning day :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Jan 22 13:51:47 2025
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote in news:vmrb8g$12g65$5@dont- email.me:

    On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 09:44:45 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote in news:vmqlmg$101qu$2
    @dont-
    email.me:

    On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 15:04:52 -0800, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal
    charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,
    In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify
    before
    a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    What are the implications if someone subject to those civil
    motions
    was
    outside the jurisdiction ?

    Depends on what you mean. When someone does something in one
    jurisdiction that causes damage in another, he can be sued in that
    other
    jurisdiction, and even charged criminally, depending on exactly
    what
    it
    was.

    Sorry, apologies for small scale European thinking :)

    I meant what if thee people chose to move to another country ? Like
    the
    draft dodger I knew who settled in Oxford, UK in the 70s, and never
    went back.

    Countries often have extradition treaties with other countries.
    Under
    those treaties a country can ask to have one of their citizens
    returned
    if they are accused of committing a crime. The second country can
    decide whether to return the person, depending on several factors as
    outlined in the treaty.

    Without coming across as "that" poster, the OP was about *civil*
    actions.

    There are also treaties for enforcement of civil judgments.

    Now that is news to me ... are they ever used (from a UK perspective)

    Today is a learning day :)

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2024/9780348260960

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Jan 29 08:37:26 2025
    On 1/20/2025 9:18 PM, Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,  In addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    The pardon does not affect their 5th amendment rights. You never know
    what other crimes you might have committed (or be accused of committing
    even if you didn't) based on your testimony. The 5th amendment provides
    blanket protection.

    Actually, there is one exception. Someone can be granted "immunity",
    meaning that whatever they say cannot be used against them. (Sort of the reverse of the first Miranda warning: "Whatever you say will NOT be used against you in a court of law."

    There's one wrinkle that I haven't seen addressed. What if a local
    prosecutor (DA) grants somebody immunity, but it turns out that their
    testimony also reveals (or provides evidence about) a federal crime or a
    crime in a different state?

    Does the local grant of immunity protect against federal prosecution? If
    not, a potential witness could say, "Ya gotta get me federal immunity or
    I ain't talkin'"


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Wed Jan 29 10:17:42 2025
    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:37:26 -0800, Barry Gold wrote:

    On 1/20/2025 9:18 PM, Roy wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    The pardon does not affect their 5th amendment rights. You never know
    what other crimes you might have committed (or be accused of committing
    even if you didn't) based on your testimony. The 5th amendment provides blanket protection.

    Well, not from bullets if you are stopped for a traffic violation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 29 21:46:23 2025
    On 1/29/2025 10:17 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 08:37:26 -0800, Barry Gold wrote:

    On 1/20/2025 9:18 PM, Roy wrote:
    [quoted text muted]
    The pardon does not affect their 5th amendment rights. You never know
    what other crimes you might have committed (or be accused of committing
    even if you didn't) based on your testimony. The 5th amendment provides
    blanket protection.
    Well, not from bullets if you are stopped for a traffic violation.

    I'm reminded of something one of R. A. Heinlein's character's said:
    stupidity is the only universal capital crime. There is no need of a
    trial, execution is automatic and unappealable.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Thu Jan 30 08:03:48 2025
    Barry Gold <[email protected]> wrote:
    Roy wrote:

    As far as I can tell, pardons only protect against criminal charges.

    Nothing prevents a civil suit or a congressional investigation,  In
    addition, I would think a person could be called to testify before a
    grand jury and would not be protected by the 5th amendment,

    The pardon does not affect their 5th amendment rights. You never know
    what other crimes you might have committed (or be accused of committing
    even if you didn't) based on your testimony. The 5th amendment provides blanket protection.

    Actually, there is one exception. Someone can be granted "immunity",
    meaning that whatever they say cannot be used against them. (Sort of
    the reverse of the first Miranda warning: "Whatever you say will NOT be
    used against you in a court of law."

    There's one wrinkle that I haven't seen addressed. What if a local
    prosecutor (DA) grants somebody immunity, but it turns out that their testimony also reveals (or provides evidence about) a federal crime or
    a crime in a different state?

    Does the local grant of immunity protect against federal prosecution?
    If not, a potential witness could say, "Ya gotta get me federal
    immunity or I ain't talkin'"

    Probably not. People can be convicted of crimes involving the same acts
    by different soverigns and not violate the double jeopardy clause. I
    suspect the same rule would apply to the Fifth Amendment.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to Bronstein on Thu Jan 30 14:53:25 2025
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:03:48 -0800 (PST), Stuart O.
    Bronstein wrote:
    Barry Gold <[email protected]> wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Does the local grant of immunity protect against federal prosecution?
    If not, a potential witness could say, "Ya gotta get me federal
    immunity or I ain't talkin'"

    Probably not. People can be convicted of crimes involving the same acts
    by different soverigns and not violate the double jeopardy clause. I
    suspect the same rule would apply to the Fifth Amendment.

    I don't understand your point. The Fifth Amendment to
    the US Constitution applies to both Federal and State
    proceedings (Miranda v. Arizona, 1966). If you "take
    the Fifth" in a Federal trial you can do the same in a
    State trial over the same act, even if it is
    technically a different crime.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
    https://BrownMath.com/
    Shikata ga nai...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Thu Jan 30 21:16:47 2025
    On 1/30/2025 2:53 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:03:48 -0800 (PST), Stuart O.
    Bronstein wrote:
    Barry Gold <[email protected]> wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Does the local grant of immunity protect against federal prosecution?
    If not, a potential witness could say, "Ya gotta get me federal
    immunity or I ain't talkin'"

    Probably not. People can be convicted of crimes involving the same acts
    by different soverigns and not violate the double jeopardy clause. I
    suspect the same rule would apply to the Fifth Amendment.

    I don't understand your point. The Fifth Amendment to
    the US Constitution applies to both Federal and State
    proceedings (Miranda v. Arizona, 1966). If you "take
    the Fifth" in a Federal trial you can do the same in a
    State trial over the same act, even if it is
    technically a different crime.

    My question is about the situation where, say, a DA grants someone
    immunity so they can testify in a trial under state law, but what he
    says in state court could be used against him in a federal trial.

    Does he need to get a separate immunity from the US Attorney? Is there
    some sort of arrangement so that the DA and AUSA can agree on this sort
    of thing?


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Thu Jan 30 21:17:38 2025
    On 1/30/2025 5:53 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 08:03:48 -0800 (PST), Stuart O.
    Bronstein wrote:
    Barry Gold <[email protected]> wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Does the local grant of immunity protect against federal prosecution?
    If not, a potential witness could say, "Ya gotta get me federal
    immunity or I ain't talkin'"

    Probably not. People can be convicted of crimes involving the same acts
    by different soverigns and not violate the double jeopardy clause. I
    suspect the same rule would apply to the Fifth Amendment.

    I don't understand your point. The Fifth Amendment to
    the US Constitution applies to both Federal and State
    proceedings (Miranda v. Arizona, 1966). If you "take
    the Fifth" in a Federal trial you can do the same in a
    State trial over the same act, even if it is
    technically a different crime.


    I think the original question had to do with receiving immunity for the
    state trial and then not receiving immunity in the federal trial for the
    same act. In that case, since you've been forced to testify to the
    facts in the state trial, thus putting the facts on public record, what
    good would it do to declare the fifth in the federal trial since the
    facts have already been exposed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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