On 11/8/2024 2:06 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Even though it's on a tv show, it's also accurate. But that's not the
same as pardoning yourself. On the other hand the President could pardon
the VP, then have the VP, as acting President, pardon the President. And that's pretty close.

That would be a classic example of bribery - a quid pro quo. OTOH, if
the President were to find a reason to say he was incapable to discharge
the powers and duties of his office, and then the VP were to pardon him
without receiving anything in return, that would (I think) be perfectly
legal.

Of course, if the President commits a crime like bribery, he can simply
order the Attorney General not to investigate it... This might result in
the AG resigning if he has any self-respect. Other members of the DoJ
might follow suit if Trump puts in an obviously biased AG - especially
if it becomes clear that there was a quid-pro-quo in choosing that AG.

Not that any of this makes any difference in the real world - the GOP
will also control both houses of COngress, so there will be no
impeachment investigation (as there was over the January 6 2021 riot)

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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On 11/9/2024 11:08 AM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 11/8/2024 2:06 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Even though it's on a tv show, it's also accurate.  But that's not the
same as pardoning yourself.  On the other hand the President could pardon >> the VP, then have the VP, as acting President, pardon the President.  And >> that's pretty close.

That would be a classic example of bribery - a quid pro quo. OTOH, if
the President were to find a reason to say he was incapable to discharge
the powers and duties of his office, and then the VP were to pardon him without receiving anything in return, that would (I think) be perfectly legal.

Of course, if the President commits a crime like bribery, he can simply
order the Attorney General not to investigate it... This might result in
the AG resigning if he has any self-respect. Other members of the DoJ
might follow suit if Trump puts in an obviously biased AG - especially
if it becomes clear that there was a quid-pro-quo in choosing that AG.

Not that any of this makes any difference in the real world - the GOP
will also control both houses of COngress, so there will be no
impeachment investigation (as there was over the January 6 2021 riot)

Would it really be bribery, though? The Constitution puts no limits on
whom the president can pardon, and I'm not sure that issuing a pardon
with the expectation of receiving a pardon in return could ever be
proven as bribery. When Nixon resigned, there are some who claim he
only agreed to do so after getting an assurance that Gerald Ford would
pardon him. Is Ford agreeing to pardon Nixon in exchange for becoming president bribery?

It's clearly a moot point since impeachment and removal from office
likely won't happen during Trump's term. Even if the Dems somehow
regain control of both the House and Senate in two years, they won't
have the super majority needed for conviction.

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How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

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Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging. It's an act of grace from the sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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On 11/7/2024 11:08 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

The simple answer is that the phrase applies to judges deciding judicial
cases. Assuming that self pardons are actually legal (and I don't know
for sure if this is the case), people in a position to self-pardon are politicians, not members of the judiciary.

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On 11/7/2024 1:02 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging. It's an act of grace from the sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable. She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/

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On 11/7/2024 8:08 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend 🙂

The question of whether a person can pardon themselves has not been
decided. But given the current makeup of the US Supreme Court, it seems
likely they will allow it.

It's going to be a sad four years for Democracy in the US.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 1:02 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging.  It's an act of grace from the
sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable.  She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/

I used to watch MS, but refresh my memory. How did Elizabeth become
Acting President as Secretary of State, bypassing the VP, Speaker of the
House and President Pro Tem?

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On 11/7/2024 1:59 PM, Rick wrote:

On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

I used to watch MS, but refresh my memory.  How did Elizabeth become
Acting President as Secretary of State, bypassing the VP, Speaker of the House and President Pro Tem?

I think it was Season 2 Episode 1. They lose contact with Air Force One
over the Pacific. The VP is in the hospital and the Speaker of the House
is on the plane. The Senate President Pro Tem has a stroke and doesn't remember the name of the President.

In the real world I would think that AF One has an Air Force escort when
it is out of radar coverage. Marine One flies with up to five escorts
to carry more Secret Service and staff.

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On 11/7/2024 5:27 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 1:59 PM, Rick wrote:

On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

I used to watch MS, but refresh my memory.  How did Elizabeth become
Acting President as Secretary of State, bypassing the VP, Speaker of
the House and President Pro Tem?

I think it was Season 2 Episode 1.  They lose contact with Air Force One over the Pacific. The VP is in the hospital and the Speaker of the House
is on the plane.  The Senate President Pro Tem has a stroke and doesn't remember the name of the President.

In the real world I would think that AF One has an Air Force escort when
it is out of radar coverage.  Marine One flies with up to five escorts
to carry more Secret Service and staff.

I would also think in the real world, if the VP and Senate Pro Tem are
both incapacitated, they probably wouldn't allow the President and
Speaker to be on the same plane.

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In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST), Rick <[email protected]> wrote:

On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 1:02 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging.� It's an act of grace from the
sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable.� She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/

I used to watch MS, but refresh my memory. How did Elizabeth become
Acting President as Secretary of State, bypassing the VP, Speaker of the >House and President Pro Tem?

Related question. If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6
and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president? That would
by Antony Blinken.

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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On 11/7/2024 8:38 PM, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST), Rick <[email protected]> wrote:

Related question. If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6
and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president? That would
by Antony Blinken.

I think that under the 20th Amendment, Congress gets involved in picking
the President and VP.

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On 11/7/2024 11:38 PM, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST), Rick <[email protected]> wrote:

On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 1:02 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging.  It's an act of grace from the
sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable.  She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/

I used to watch MS, but refresh my memory. How did Elizabeth become
Acting President as Secretary of State, bypassing the VP, Speaker of the
House and President Pro Tem?

Related question. If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6
and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president? That would
by Antony Blinken.

Well Biden will continue to be president until Noon on January 20th. If
there were a catastrophic event between January 6th and 20th resulting
in all the people dying you mentioned, I'm pretty sure Congress would
quickly elect a new Speaker and a new Pro Tem would be chosen so when
Noon on January 20th rolls by, the newly elected Speaker would become
President and would appoint a new VP who would be confirmed by Congress.

If you want to also throw in Biden dying between now and January 20th,
then Harris would become President and would choose a new VP who would
no doubt be quickly confirmed by Congress, and they would serve until
the 20th of Jan.

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Roy <[email protected]> wrote:

Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging. It's an act of grace from the
sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable. She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a
pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_000 13316/

Even though it's on a tv show, it's also accurate. But that's not the
same as pardoning yourself. On the other hand the President could pardon
the VP, then have the VP, as acting President, pardon the President. And that's pretty close.


--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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On 11/8/2024 2:06 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

...
Even though it's on a tv show, it's also accurate. But that's not the
same as pardoning yourself. On the other hand the President could pardon the VP, then have the VP, as acting President, pardon the President. And that's pretty close.

I think the correct sequence would be for the VP, as acting President,
pardons the President and then the President pardons the VP.

A pardon can only apply to crimes in the past. By following the
sequence, the VP can't be prosecuted for issuing the pardon.

"For instance, the Court has indicated that the power may be exercised
at any time after [an offense’s] commission,8 reflecting that the
President may not preemptively immunize future criminal conduct."

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On 11/7/2024 9:51 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 8:38 PM, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST), Rick
<[email protected]> wrote:

Related question.  If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never
remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6
and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president?  That would
by Antony Blinken.

I think that under the 20th Amendment, Congress gets involved in picking
the President and VP.

Rick is right. Congress does *not* get to pick the President(*). If the
Pres, the Veep, the Speaker, and the President Pro Tem all die (or are incapacitated), then the cabinet officers succeed in the order their departments were created. There's a mnemonic for this: St. Wapniacl:
State, Treasury, War, Attorney General, Postmaster General, Navy,
Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, and Labor.

Except that War and Navy are subsumed into Defense (therefore #3 in that
list) and the Postmaster General is out because they are no longer part
of the cabinet.

(*) except when the electoral college does not return a majority for any candidate, then the HR chooses, with each state's delegation getting one
vote.
--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 11/25/2024 7:47 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 11/7/2024 9:51 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 8:38 PM, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST), Rick
<[email protected]> wrote:



Related question.  If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never >>> remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6
and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president?  That would >>> by Antony Blinken.

I think that under the 20th Amendment, Congress gets involved in
picking the President and VP.

Rick is right. Congress does *not* get to pick the President(*). If the
Pres, the Veep, the Speaker, and the President Pro Tem all die (or are incapacitated), then the cabinet officers succeed in the order their departments were created. There's a mnemonic for this: St. Wapniacl:
State, Treasury, War, Attorney General, Postmaster General, Navy,
Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, and Labor.

Except that War and Navy are subsumed into Defense (therefore #3 in that list) and the Postmaster General is out because they are no longer part
of the cabinet.

(*) except when the electoral college does not return a majority for any candidate, then the HR chooses, with each state's delegation getting one vote.

The problem being discussed is one where the Pres and Veep cannot be
sworn into office. This would be after the Electoral college has met

The line of succession does not apply

The 20th amendment Article 3 states

"The Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a
President-elect nor a Vice President-elect shall have qualified,
declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one
who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly
until a President or Vice President shall have qualified."

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According to Roy <[email protected]>:

Related question.  If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can never >>>> remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die between Jan 6 >>>> and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become president?  That would >>>> by Antony Blinken. ...

The problem being discussed is one where the Pres and Veep cannot be
sworn into office. This would be after the Electoral college has met

The line of succession does not apply

The 20th amendment Article 3 states

"The Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a >President-elect nor a Vice President-elect shall have qualified,
declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one
who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly
until a President or Vice President shall have qualified."

Here's the relevant law. As I read it, if on Jan 20 there is no
president or vice president, the same succession rules apply.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/19

--
Regards,
John Levine, [email protected], Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 12:02:40 -0800, Roy wrote:

On 11/25/2024 7:47 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 11/7/2024 9:51 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 8:38 PM, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 7 Nov 2024 13:59:03 -0800 (PST),
Rick <[email protected]> wrote:



Related question.  If trump, Vance, the Speaker (whose name I can
never remember) and the President Pro-tem of the Senate all die
between Jan 6 and Jan 20, doesn't the Secretary of State become
president?  That would by Antony Blinken.

I think that under the 20th Amendment, Congress gets involved in
picking the President and VP.

Rick is right. Congress does *not* get to pick the President(*). If the
Pres, the Veep, the Speaker, and the President Pro Tem all die (or are
incapacitated), then the cabinet officers succeed in the order their
departments were created. There's a mnemonic for this: St. Wapniacl:
State, Treasury, War, Attorney General, Postmaster General, Navy,
Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, and Labor.

Except that War and Navy are subsumed into Defense (therefore #3 in
that list) and the Postmaster General is out because they are no longer
part of the cabinet.

(*) except when the electoral college does not return a majority for
any candidate, then the HR chooses, with each state's delegation
getting one vote.

The problem being discussed is one where the Pres and Veep cannot be
sworn into office. This would be after the Electoral college has met

The line of succession does not apply

The 20th amendment Article 3 states

"The Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President-elect nor a Vice President-elect shall have qualified,
declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one
who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly
until a President or Vice President shall have qualified."

But isn't that now advisory, since the new-look SCOTUS emerged ?

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On 11/7/2024 4:15 PM, Roy wrote:

On 11/7/2024 1:02 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

How does this square with a persons supposed ability to pardon
themselves ?

Asking for a friend :)

A pardon is unrelated to judging.  It's an act of grace from the
sovereign.

Still, pardoning onesself is not likely to be allowed.

In a TV Show "Madam Secretary", the star becomes "Acting President"
because the President is unavailable.  She writes a pardon for someone
and is told a pardon is not revocable.

If the VP is acting President for some reason, he could grant a pardon.

Also see

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ ALDE_00013316/

From the link:

In Schick v. Reed, the Court recognized that an exercise of clemency may include any condition which does not otherwise offend the Constitution,9 suggesting that the President may not make clemency subject to a
condition that is prohibited by another constitutional provision. =============================

It would seem to me that, at face-value, that means the president can't
say "I'll pardon you for that death sentence if you pay me
$1,000,000,000" because that would fall under the "profit from office" prohibition. But what about ""I'll pardon you for that death sentence if
you pay my son $1,000,000,000" or even "...pay my good friend, Joe..."
or "...pay some random stranger..." All of these are forms of buying the
pardon but it doesn't seem that they'd be prohibited.

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