• Politics and stolen music

    From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 08:37:56 2024
    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any judgements.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total
    misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From micky@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 13 10:05:55 2024
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT),
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    Yes.

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    Get an injunction against its use? Then request and later sue for
    damages?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) >political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any >judgements.

    My recollection is that trump used someone's song without permission,
    and even maybe after the copyright holder objected publicly. Like you, I
    don't recall any judgments.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total >misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).

    I don't understand this paragraph at all!

    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to micky on Tue Aug 13 13:37:03 2024
    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:05:55 -0700, micky wrote:

    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT),
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    Yes.

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    Get an injunction against its use? Then request and later sue for
    damages?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) >>political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any >>judgements.

    My recollection is that trump used someone's song without permission,
    and even maybe after the copyright holder objected publicly. Like you, I don't recall any judgments.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total >>misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).

    I don't understand this paragraph at all!

    Not a Bruce Springsteen fan then ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 13:26:18 2024
    On 8/13/2024 11:37 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any judgements.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).


    Many campaigns have used copyrighted music before, most famously,
    perhaps, Bill Clinton's use of the Fleetwood Mac hit "Don't Stop". But
    I'm pretty sure the band approved of it and even performed it at some of
    his rallies. FDR famously used the song "Happy Days are Here Again" in
    1932 but again I would presume the copyright holder didn't have an issue
    with it. At minimum, I would think the copyright holder would be
    entitled to royalty payments for every time the song is played at a rally.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 13 18:52:44 2024
    On 8/13/2024 11:37 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any judgements.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).


    The amazingly ironic part of this is that if you ever actually listen to
    the lyrics of "Born in the USA", the song has little to do with what you
    think it does. It is NOT an ode to patriotism as many think - it is
    actually the story of a Vietnam veteran who comes back from the war and
    faces rejection and very tough circumstances as he can't find a home or
    a job. The counterpoint of the surging "Born in the USA" part is
    actually meant to be ironic and not celebratory at all.

    https://genius.com/Bruce-springsteen-born-in-the-usa-lyrics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From micky@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 13 21:31:15 2024
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT), micky <[email protected]> wrote:

    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT),
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:

    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    Yes.

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    Get an injunction against its use? Then request and later sue for
    damages?

    So far, I haven't found anything about anyone who asked permission or
    paid to use a song. But I read that "Fleetwood Mac appreciated
    [Clinton's] use of the song, and the Rumours-era lineup � Nicks, McVie,
    John McVie, Mick Fleetwood and Lindsey Buckingham � reunited to play its
    first show in six years at Clinton�s inaugural ball."

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK) >>political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any >>judgements.

    My recollection is that trump used someone's song without permission,
    and even maybe after the copyright holder objected publicly. Like you, I >don't recall any judgments.

    Morre than one song.
    "Musicians who oppose Donald Trump's use of their music" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musicians_who_oppose_Donald_Trump%27s_use_of_their_music
    which lists 35 singers or bands which objected,from Guns and Roses to
    Luciano Pavoratti.

    A short sample:
    Aerosmith Steven Tyler of Aerosmith demanded that Trump stop playing
    "Dream On" at Trump's political rallies in 2015.[7] In 2018, it happened
    again, with Tyler demanding Trump stop using another song, "Living on
    the Edge", at his political rallies. A cease and desist letter was sent
    both times.

    Bruce Springsteen Bruce Springsteen opposed Trump using his song
    "Born in the U.S.A." at Trump's political rallies in 2016.[10] Rather
    than take legal action, he openly announced his support for Trump's
    opponent, Hillary Clinton, and campaigned in support of her. As a
    result, the song would instead get booed every time Trump played it at
    rallies from that point on.[11]

    Creedence Clearwater Revival John Fogerty, the frontman for the band Creedence Clearwater Revival, has opposed Trump's use of the band's song "Fortunate Son". In October 2020, Fogerty announced he was sending a cease-and-desist letter to Trump, saying that Trump "is using my words
    and my voice to portray a message that I do not endorse".[13] Fogerty
    noted that it was quite the opposite�the song's lyrics were meant as a
    critique of how wealthy people are unfairly able to avoid the draft or
    pay their share of taxes.[14] Later on, he openly endorsed Trump's 2020 challenger, Joe Biden, by launching his own TikTok account following
    Trump's defiance of the cease and desist order over usage of his song, "Fortunate Son".[15] --- Defiance of a court order. What a surprise!

    Eddy Grant Eddy Grant issued a copyright complaint over Trump's use
    of his song "Electric Avenue" in a political video he tweeted. The video
    was taken down, and a lawsuit and cease and desist followed.[17]

    Most of them imply, and none have implied otherwise, that permission is
    needed, especially if a cease and desist order can be obtained, and
    double especially if someone sued even aftr the video was taken down.

    You can read on your own about the other 31 who complained.

    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From micky@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Aug 13 21:30:16 2024
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT),
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:


    My recollection is that trump used someone's song without permission,
    and even maybe after the copyright holder objected publicly. Like you, I
    don't recall any judgments.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total >>>misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The >>>use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican >>>America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).

    I don't understand this paragraph at all!

    Not a Bruce Springsteen fan then ?

    I know the song, and the first 6 words, but I don't pay much attention
    to lyrics. After googling, I have some idea of what you meant.

    Mack the Knife by Bobby Darin was out for 5 or 10 years before I
    realized it was about a murderer.

    I did learn the words to Moon River and some others early on, but only
    those where the singer speaks distinctly.

    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to micky on Wed Aug 14 08:07:40 2024
    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 21:30:16 -0700, micky wrote:

    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 13 Aug 2024 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT),
    Jethro_uk <[email protected]> wrote:


    [quoted text muted]

    I know the song, and the first 6 words, but I don't pay much attention
    to lyrics. After googling, I have some idea of what you meant.

    Reagans using it as an example of a Republican anthem categorically
    proved that no one on his team had a clue as to what "Born in the USA"
    was actually saying (thus reinforcing my suspicion about the right wing appreciation of art). It also proved that they don't take advice, as I
    refuse to believe there was no one in Team Reagan that didn't warn them.
    This then supports my second suspicion about politicians generally not
    taking advice from people who know ....

    The more recent use of a song closely associated with the Titanic
    disaster by the current Trump campaign would be supplementary evidence
    for this thesis :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sam@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 14 20:52:02 2024
    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:37:56 -0700 (PDT), Jethro_uk
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?


    If it is licensed by the music publisher and as long as the man paid for
    the licensing fees for a public performance he is in the clear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Rick on Wed May 28 17:10:21 2025
    On 8/13/2024 9:52 PM, Rick wrote:
    On 8/13/2024 11:37 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK)
    political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any
    judgements.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total
    misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).


    The amazingly ironic part of this is that if you ever actually listen to
    the lyrics of "Born in the USA", the song has little to do with what you think it does.  It is NOT an ode to patriotism as many think -  it is actually the story of a Vietnam veteran who comes back from the war and
    faces rejection and very tough circumstances as he can't find a home or
    a job.  The counterpoint of the surging "Born in the USA" part is
    actually meant to be ironic and not celebratory at all.

    https://genius.com/Bruce-springsteen-born-in-the-usa-lyrics


    Maybe Kamala should have tried this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCQ-GjHfbYw

    And I mean that sincerely. Remind people what the green lady is all
    about (Not just "Hope for naked women everywhere.")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rick on Sun Jun 8 16:14:18 2025
    On 8/13/2024 1:26 PM, Rick wrote:
    On 8/13/2024 11:37 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
    A Florida man has recently attracted a lawsuit for the unauthorised use
    of a popular song in their public activities at rallies.

    The artist and their corporate representatives who hold the copyright
    have objected and are claiming damages as no permission was sought as
    well as asking to cease and desist in future.

    Presumably this is civil litigation ?

    If the facts of ownership and control are as presented, then what would
    the next step be in legal terms ?

    I am aware there appears to be a long history of US (and sometimes UK)
    political campaigns suddenly discovering they own the rights to a piece
    of music, no matter what the law says. I don't recall hearing of any
    judgements.

    I guess there is a view that the best punishment is the total
    misunderstanding of some campaigns as to what the music is saying. The
    use of "Born in the USA" as a rallying cry for corporate Republican
    America is well known in England. (Because you don't diss the Boss !).


    Many campaigns have used copyrighted music before, most famously,
    perhaps, Bill Clinton's use of the Fleetwood Mac hit "Don't Stop".  But
    I'm pretty sure the band approved of it and even performed it at some of
    his rallies.  FDR famously used the song "Happy Days are Here Again" in
    1932 but again I would presume the copyright holder didn't have an issue
    with it.  At minimum, I would think the copyright holder would be
    entitled to royalty payments for every time the song is played at a rally.

    To a large extent it depends on exactly HOW the song is played - and the
    status of the song.

    Consider a song that has been performed as part of a stage play (a
    "musical") or in a movie, but never published elsewhere. That song is
    fully covered by copyright and (in theory) should not be played in
    public elsewhere. (You can still sing it in your home, for example,
    because that's not public.)

    But composers and lyricists and musicians rarely keep a song that
    limited. They record it on CD/DVD, or it gets used in a movie which is
    then released on DVD. That falls under a special rule, "recording for sale".

    Once the copyright owner does (or authorizes) this, a whole new set of
    rules comes into play. Basically, anybody can then put it on a tape/CD/DVD/vinyl record. Then they have to pay a royalty, which is set
    by law. These royalties are paid to ASCAP, which then distributes them
    to the copyright owners.

    There are different rates for using something on a website, performing
    it in a restaurant/bar/nightclub, playing it on the radio or TV, etc. https://www.ascap.com/music-users

    I'm pretty sure that ASCAP has some system in place for use at political rallies. In simple terms: if it's ever been sold as a
    record/tape/whatever, you don't need permission. Just to pay the royalty.

    There's also an interesting exception resulting from a Supreme Court
    ruling. Let's say that you're running a retail store and you decide to
    play some recordings for your customers to listen to while they shop. If
    you install some fancy PA system that will pipe the music throughout
    (say) a supermarket, you have to pay the royalties. But if you use a
    home-style record player/tape recorder, etc., you don't have to pay
    royalties, because people who play a record/CD/whatever at home don't
    have to. (That's why people buy records...)


    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Music_Corp._v._Aiken
    for more details.



    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)