• fetal personhood

    From S K@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 3 14:50:49 2023
    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to fetuses conceived in the US?

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 3 17:07:06 2023
    According to S K <[email protected]>:
    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to fetuses conceived in the US?

    The Constitution says that every US citizen who lives in the US is
    also a citizen of the state where he or she lives. I suppose a state
    could pass a law making fetuses state citizens, but it wouldn't have
    much practical effect since they're not US citizens.

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to John Levine on Fri Nov 3 21:53:27 2023
    "John Levine" <[email protected]> wrote:
    According to S K <[email protected]>:

    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to
    fetuses conceived in the US?

    The Constitution says that every US citizen who lives in the US is
    also a citizen of the state where he or she lives. I suppose a
    state could pass a law making fetuses state citizens, but it
    wouldn't have much practical effect since they're not US citizens.

    Actually that's not quite right. The 14th Amendment says,

    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
    the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
    State wherein they reside." So to be a citizen under the Constitution,
    a person has to be born.

    The issue really isn't citizenship, though - it's personhood. Can a
    state declare that a fetus is a person? That's really what the
    abortion debate is about. But then that would affect other laws. Like
    can a pregnant woman count for two people in a carpool lane? Is a
    fetus entitled to child support after a divorce? Does a pregnant woman
    have to pay for two tickets to see a movie?


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    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com


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  • From S K@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Sat Nov 4 11:47:23 2023
    On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 12:53:32 AM UTC-4, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    "John Levine" <[email protected]> wrote:
    According to S K <[email protected]>:

    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to
    fetuses conceived in the US?

    The Constitution says that every US citizen who lives in the US is
    also a citizen of the state where he or she lives. I suppose a
    state could pass a law making fetuses state citizens, but it
    wouldn't have much practical effect since they're not US citizens.
    Actually that's not quite right. The 14th Amendment says,

    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
    the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
    State wherein they reside." So to be a citizen under the Constitution,
    a person has to be born.

    The issue really isn't citizenship, though - it's personhood. Can a
    state declare that a fetus is a person? That's really what the
    abortion debate is about. But then that would affect other laws. Like
    can a pregnant woman count for two people in a carpool lane? Is a
    fetus entitled to child support after a divorce? Does a pregnant woman
    have to pay for two tickets to see a movie?


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com

    with due respect, movie tickets and carpools are silly.
    Southern states want to impose criminal penalties on pregnant women and the abortion providers.
    Is this a step towards that?
    Since the zygote is a person in such a scenario - an abortion would carry the death penalty or life in prison.

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Sat Nov 4 11:51:03 2023
    "Stuart O. Bronstein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    "John Levine" <[email protected]> wrote:
    According to S K <[email protected]>:

    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to
    fetuses conceived in the US?

    The Constitution says that every US citizen who lives in the US is
    also a citizen of the state where he or she lives. I suppose a
    state could pass a law making fetuses state citizens, but it
    wouldn't have much practical effect since they're not US citizens.

    Actually that's not quite right. The 14th Amendment says,

    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
    the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
    State wherein they reside." So to be a citizen under the Constitution,
    a person has to be born.


    That's also not quite right. The Constitution doesn't say that ONLY persons born or naturalized in the United States etc, are citizens. It leaves open
    the possibility that other laws could be passed, presumably by Congress, offering other routes to citizenship.


    The issue really isn't citizenship, though - it's personhood. Can a
    state declare that a fetus is a person? That's really what the
    abortion debate is about. But then that would affect other laws. Like
    can a pregnant woman count for two people in a carpool lane? Is a
    fetus entitled to child support after a divorce? Does a pregnant woman
    have to pay for two tickets to see a movie?


    Not to mention the whole issue of child tax deductions and credits.


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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to S K on Sat Nov 4 20:57:24 2023
    S K <[email protected]> wrote:

    On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 12:53:32 AM UTC-4, Stuart O.
    Bronstein wrote:
    "John Levine" <[email protected]> wrote:
    According to S K <[email protected]>:

    can individual states pass laws that give citizenship rights to
    fetuses conceived in the US?

    The Constitution says that every US citizen who lives in the US
    is also a citizen of the state where he or she lives. I suppose
    a state could pass a law making fetuses state citizens, but it
    wouldn't have much practical effect since they're not US
    citizens.
    Actually that's not quite right. The 14th Amendment says,

    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
    subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
    States and of the State wherein they reside." So to be a citizen
    under the Constitution, a person has to be born.

    The issue really isn't citizenship, though - it's personhood. Can
    a state declare that a fetus is a person? That's really what the
    abortion debate is about. But then that would affect other laws.
    Like can a pregnant woman count for two people in a carpool lane?
    Is a fetus entitled to child support after a divorce? Does a
    pregnant woman have to pay for two tickets to see a movie?

    with due respect, movie tickets and carpools are silly.
    Southern states want to impose criminal penalties on pregnant
    women and the abortion providers. Is this a step towards that?
    Since the zygote is a person in such a scenario - an abortion
    would carry the death penalty or life in prison.

    I agree. The point, though, is that legislating that a fetus from
    the moment of implantation is a person with all the rights and
    obligations of a person (and yes, primarly as a way to prohibit
    abortions), is silly and poses a host of problems.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com


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