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  • Re: U-turn with left arrow v. right turn with right arrow

    From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 17 13:53:27 2023
    If you're wondering why you don't remember this conversation, it's
    because he's responding to a message from a decade ago, June 2013.

    According to C Douglas Edwards <[email protected]>:
    Excuse me, but I may have missed it. Where is it implied in the law that "Even though the law
    _technically_ gives the right-turner the right of way over the U-turner, it's not obvious." Thanks! As a side note, I just read of an attorney
    getting a client off of an 'illegal u-turn citation' by arguing the citation should have been 'failure to obey traffic sign'...as the 'no
    u-turn' sign was clearly posted at the intersection. Imagine that! As it is written in virginia law, u turns are only permissible at
    intersections, which is where the offense happened.
    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, [email protected], Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From C Douglas Edwards@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 17 13:33:28 2023
    Excuse me, but I may have missed it. Where is it implied in the law that "Even though the law
    _technically_ gives the right-turner the right of way over the U-turner, it's not obvious." Thanks! As a side note, I just read of an attorney getting a client off of an 'illegal u-turn citation' by arguing the citation should have been 'failure to obey
    traffic sign'...as the 'no u-turn' sign was clearly posted at the intersection. Imagine that! As it is written in virginia law, u turns are only permissible at intersections, which is where the offense happened.

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to C Douglas Edwards on Mon Dec 4 13:14:35 2023
    On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:33:32 PM UTC-4, C Douglas Edwards wrote:
    Where is it implied in the law that "the law gives the right-turner the right of way over the U-turner"

    I would say "common sense" except that the law doesn't work by common
    sense but by what's written in the vehicle code (plus any relevant court decisions that interpret the VC).

    As a general rule, the car making the more complex maneuver -- the one
    that affects more vehicles/lanes -- should yield to the driver making
    the less complex maneuver.

    The VC does contain some exceptions to this rule. For example, a vehicle
    making a "protected" left turn (on a green left arrow) has right of way
    over those coming straight through or making right turns.

    Note that if the signal is working properly, any vehicle coming straight
    should be facing a red light and therefore should not move forward. And
    that the vehicle making a right turn that interferes with the left turn
    should also be facing a red light, and therefore allowed to make a right
    turn only after coming to a full stop and looking to be sure that there
    is no oncoming traffic that he would interfere with.

    (Just checked: yes, VA does allow right turn on red, but you must come
    to a full stop before the limit line, then check for oncoming vehicles
    before making the right turn.)

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Matt on Wed Dec 6 12:29:14 2023
    On 12/5/2023 3:04 PM, Matt wrote:
    On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 4:14:40 PM UTC-5, Barry Gold wrote:
    As a general rule, the car making the more complex maneuver -- the one
    that affects more vehicles/lanes -- should yield to the driver making
    the less complex maneuver.

    I agree with you in principle, but the motor vehicle code is defective if it fails to make clear who is at fault in any given case. The concept of "the more complex maneuver" is too vague/debatable to be part of any decent motor vehicle code. Clarity
    regarding right-of-way is essential information for insurance adjusters, self-driving car software authors, traffic attorneys, judges, and the 6 million drivers in Virginia.

    Playing devil's advocate: A U-turn is less complex than a right turn:
    * A U-turn stays on the same road while a right turn changes roads.
    * A U-turning driver's view of the upcoming path is less obstructed than that of a right-turning driver, given that drivers in Virginia are on the left side of the vehicle.


    But you ignored my definition of complexity, creating a strawman that
    you could knock down. My definition of complexity: how many lanes and/or
    other vehicles are affected.

    A U-turn blocks the entire intersection, all 8 lanes (assuming 2 4-lane
    roads), while a right turn blocks only two - the lane the vehicle is in
    and the one it is turning into.

    Regarding view: it depends on how the road is constructed. Most streets
    in Los Angeles have a parking lane as well as two or more driving lanes.
    So a driver making a right turn can pull forward far enough to see
    traffic in the lane he wants to turn into without endangering any other traffic. But maybe in VA a lot of streets don't have parking lanes? That
    would make turning right on red much more dangerous.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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