• Re: Consequences of wiping MFT?

    From R.Wieser@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 21:11:28 2022
    Cory,

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program
    to wipe the MFT file?

    Bad idea: You would lose access to all your files.

    MFT stands for Master File Table. It contains the information where all the files on your disk are. Comparable to the chapter index in a book.

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    :-) Yes.

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    Possibly, but only as a result of writing new files to the than "empty"
    disk.

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech
    explanations. I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    By erasing the MFT you will make sure that most noone, *including yourself* will be able to access those files anymore.

    (I say "most noone", as the files are still there, and a recovery program
    could possible recover them).

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 13:30:11 2022
    I'm using Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

    I have been using 'eraser' programs for some time, but never allowed
    erasing the MFT file. My questions are:

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program to wipe
    the MFT file?

    Will it affect any of my programs or data files?

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech explanations.
    I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Shadow@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Feb 18 17:51:19 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:30:11 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

    I'm using Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

    I have been using 'eraser' programs for some time, but never allowed
    erasing the MFT file. My questions are:

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program to wipe
    the MFT file?

    Will it affect any of my programs or data files?

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech explanations.
    I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    You can check your journal(command line):

    fsutil usn queryjournal c:

    And delete it:

    fsutil usn deletejournal /d /n c:

    And use specialized programs like this one:

    <https://privazer.com/en/download-shellbag-analyzer-shellbag-cleaner.php>

    .... to delete forensic stuff Windows hides in the registry.

    You can even defrag your MBR with something like UltraDefrag:

    <https://sourceforge.net/projects/ultradefrag/files/stable-release/7.1.4/>

    (I do all of that fairly regularly with no ill effects).

    But NEVER try to delete your MBR.
    HTH
    []'s
    --
    Don't be evil - Google 2004
    We have a new policy - Google 2012
    Google Fuchsia - 2021

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 18 18:48:23 2022
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 21:11:28 +0100, "R.Wieser" <[email protected]ble>
    wrote:

    Cory,

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program
    to wipe the MFT file?

    Bad idea: You would lose access to all your files.

    MFT stands for Master File Table. It contains the information where all the >files on your disk are. Comparable to the chapter index in a book.

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    :-) Yes.

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    Possibly, but only as a result of writing new files to the than "empty"
    disk.

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech
    explanations. I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    By erasing the MFT you will make sure that most noone, *including yourself* >will be able to access those files anymore.

    (I say "most noone", as the files are still there, and a recovery program >could possible recover them).

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser


    If you're right, I'm glad I didn't try it. :o)

    I guess I'll just forget about screwing with the MFT.

    Tnx.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Shadow on Sat Feb 19 00:30:41 2022
    On 2/18/2022 3:51 PM, Shadow wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:30:11 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

    I'm using Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

    I have been using 'eraser' programs for some time, but never allowed
    erasing the MFT file. My questions are:

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program to wipe
    the MFT file?

    Will it affect any of my programs or data files?

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech explanations.
    I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    You can check your journal(command line):

    fsutil usn queryjournal c:

    And delete it:

    fsutil usn deletejournal /d /n c:

    And use specialized programs like this one:

    <https://privazer.com/en/download-shellbag-analyzer-shellbag-cleaner.php>

    .... to delete forensic stuff Windows hides in the registry.

    You can even defrag your MBR with something like UltraDefrag:

    <https://sourceforge.net/projects/ultradefrag/files/stable-release/7.1.4/>

    (I do all of that fairly regularly with no ill effects).

    But NEVER try to delete your MBR.
    HTH
    []'s

    You should at least know what the $USN journal does,
    before deleting it.

    If the file system is shut down dirty, if the file system
    is corrupted, reading back the last entries added to the
    journal, helps the file system remove fragments of files
    that were not committed. It's part of "repair" to the file
    system.

    In addition, it supports the operation of the Search Indexer
    (and, even for third party programs such as Everything.exe,
    it needs it too).

    Potentially, it allows File Explorer windows to be dynamically
    updated... without pressing F5.

    I suspect the size seen listed in JKDefrag for the file,
    is not correct. The journal has a first_used and first_free
    pointer, the pointer separation might be on the order of
    32 megabytes. When it claims the journal is 15GB in extent,
    that's the magnitude of the pointers, not their delta.
    It's the delta between those, which is the active region.

    You could try dumping the journal, and check for yourself
    what quantity of information is there.

    But the $USN is what makes NTFS a better file system than
    FAT32. As FAT32 doesn't have the same repair capabilities
    as NTFS does.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sat Feb 19 01:17:56 2022
    On 2/18/2022 2:30 PM, [email protected] wrote:
    I'm using Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

    I have been using 'eraser' programs for some time, but never allowed
    erasing the MFT file. My questions are:

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program to wipe
    the MFT file?

    Will it affect any of my programs or data files?

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech explanations.
    I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.


    This sounds like Heidi Eraser.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eraser_(software)

    https://eraser.heidi.ie

    *******

    Maybe it's a language issue, but I really doubt Heidi
    erases the whole $MFT.

    Processing the $MFT is like using dental floss. You
    "clean between the teeth" for best health, OK ?

    File 1000 "AnnualReport.txt" Present=Yes
    LBA 5000-5007

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=Yes <=== these are slots in the $MFT
    LBA 5008-5015

    FIle 1002 "BoringDiary.txt" Present-Yes
    LBA 5016-5023

    OK, now we'll delete the file "SecretSauce.txt"

    del secretsauce.txt

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=No
    LBA 5008-5015

    Notice two things. LBA 5008-5015 still exist.
    With Photorec, I could recover them (maybe...) .

    If I do a 1024 byte read of the $MFT, I will see

    binarygarbage...SecretSauce.txt...binarygarbage

    The filename is *still* present. In other words, Windows has
    done the least work possible. It flipped the Present byte.
    All the rest of the details are available to the police department.

    Using Recuva, I can flip the Present indicator back on.
    Voila, file is recovered, sauce recipe is exposed for all
    to see.

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=Yes <=== Recuva this byte
    LBA 5008-5015

    *******

    How can the "eraser" concept help this ?

    del secretsauce.txt

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=No
    LBA 5008-5015

    Heidi can overwrite LBA 5008-5015, as long as
    a check of the file system, reveals no operation
    has already used them. That is "normal" erasing
    and takes time. If you're deleting a 100GB TrueCrypt
    container, that could take half an hour. That's why
    Windows does not implement a Secure Erase of that nature.
    No user would put up with waiting half an hour for
    all the LBAs to be zeroed out.

    But Heidi can also deny the existence of SecretSauce.txt, like this.
    You can clean the slot, of intelligent information. I can set the
    filename field to NUL.

    File 1001 "" Present=No
    LBA 0-0

    And that is "Cleaning the slot", nor "Erasing". You are
    cleaning slot 1001, to prevent recovery of the
    filename (which might be incriminating).

    If nfi.exe lists the file system, in all cases
    it would only display this. It does not display
    the contents of slot 1001, because Present=No.
    WE can tell from the numbering, that something could be there.

    nfi C:

    File 1000 "AnnualReport.txt" Present=Yes
    LBA 5000-5007

    FIle 1002 "BoringDiary.txt" Present-Yes
    LBA 5016-5023

    But that is not an honest appraisal, as we don't
    know what slot 1001 looks like. Does it look
    like the way Windows left it ? We know the name
    of the file. We know where it used to live.
    If I scan with HxD, I can easily spot "SecretSauce.txt".

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=No
    LBA 5008-5015

    *******

    This will also do a superficial cleaning of C:

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/sdelete

    sdelete64 -z C:

    That tool functions as a whitespace cleaner.

    On pass 1, what does it do ?

    File 1001 "SecretSauce.txt" Present=No
    LBA 5008-5015 <=== overwrites with zeroes

    On pass 2, what does it do ?

    File 1001 "" Present=No <=== cleans the unused $MFT slot
    LBA 0-0

    Is it the equivalent of Heidi Eraser ? Absolutely not.

    Heidi Eraser does a more thorough job.

    If you do your own forensic analysis, you'll find that the file
    system "leaks like a sieve". When I tested sdelete.exe, I must have
    got 200 hits of my "secret data" in a scan.

    Heidi Eraser was designed by people who regularly verified the
    effectiveness of their tool, by doing those scans. That's why
    the development cycle for it was so long.

    Heidi is most effective, if you start using it right after
    Windows is installed.

    Whereas sdelete could be applied to a "mature" disk drive,
    and sweep out about 99% of the objectionable material. But it
    leaves enough, for the police department. You cannot trust
    your future health, to sdelete.

    You "clean the teeth" of the $MFT (overwrite slot 1001).
    You do not erase the entire $MFT, as then none of the files
    can be easily found. The files can be recovered using Photorec,
    but with 100,000 "fragments" in the list, you'll make no sense of it.

    There are also things you can do to the disk contents, to make
    it even harder for a Photorec analysis to work. But doing so is
    pointless really. If you want to thoroughly clean a disk drive
    of everything, it goes like this. On my 1TB hard drive, this does
    1TB of writes. Diskpart.exe is a tool in Windows itself.

    Administrator Command Prompt

    diskpart

    list disk
    select disk 2
    list partition # This step helps you verify you're erasing the right disk
    clean all # Zeroes out the entire disk 2, from Sector 0 to Sector End
    exit

    And that takes less time, than doing some other crazy shit.

    I do that to disk drives, any time I need forensic detection capability.
    Where is a program writing ? If you zero out a disk before starting an experiment, it makes it easier to spot the writes using HxD hex editor.
    For example, if I want to know where RAID metadata is stored, that
    helps me find it.

    Any chimpanzee can physically erase an entire disk. It takes
    skill and practice to "clean" disks, leaving the intended files "AnnualReport.txt" and "BoringDiary.txt" intact.

    Can a forensics person tell you've been "cleaning" ? Yes.
    But they won't know what you've removed.

    HTH,
    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Shadow@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 07:55:24 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 00:30:41 -0500, Paul <[email protected]d>
    wrote:

    On 2/18/2022 3:51 PM, Shadow wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:30:11 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

    I'm using Windows XP Pro 32 bit.

    I have been using 'eraser' programs for some time, but never allowed
    erasing the MFT file. My questions are:

    What are the consequences of my using an eraser type program to wipe
    the MFT file?

    Will it affect any of my programs or data files?

    Will it slow down access to my programs or data?

    Will it again 'renew' itself?

    I'm no tech, so don't waste your time with any big tech explanations.
    I'm just trying to protect my privacy a bit more.

    You can check your journal(command line):

    fsutil usn queryjournal c:

    And delete it:

    fsutil usn deletejournal /d /n c:

    And use specialized programs like this one:

    <https://privazer.com/en/download-shellbag-analyzer-shellbag-cleaner.php>

    .... to delete forensic stuff Windows hides in the registry.

    You can even defrag your MBR with something like UltraDefrag:

    <https://sourceforge.net/projects/ultradefrag/files/stable-release/7.1.4/> >>
    (I do all of that fairly regularly with no ill effects).

    But NEVER try to delete your MBR.
    HTH
    []'s

    You should at least know what the $USN journal does,
    before deleting it.

    If the file system is shut down dirty, if the file system
    is corrupted, reading back the last entries added to the
    journal, helps the file system remove fragments of files
    that were not committed. It's part of "repair" to the file
    system.

    In addition, it supports the operation of the Search Indexer
    (and, even for third party programs such as Everything.exe,
    it needs it too).

    Potentially, it allows File Explorer windows to be dynamically
    updated... without pressing F5.

    I suspect the size seen listed in JKDefrag for the file,
    is not correct. The journal has a first_used and first_free
    pointer, the pointer separation might be on the order of
    32 megabytes. When it claims the journal is 15GB in extent,
    that's the magnitude of the pointers, not their delta.
    It's the delta between those, which is the active region.

    You could try dumping the journal, and check for yourself
    what quantity of information is there.

    But the $USN is what makes NTFS a better file system than
    FAT32. As FAT32 doesn't have the same repair capabilities
    as NTFS does.

    Paul

    I've been deleting the journal for almost 5 years so far(batch
    file). No ill effects. And I have indexing turned off.
    My explorer window auto-updates(when I'm re-encoding a video I
    can see the file grow).
    I use "Index your files" when I need to find something. Took
    less than a minute to index half a million files/folders. And I can
    delete the index when I'm done.
    <http://www.indexyourfiles.com/index.html>
    (Seems he dropped the 32 bit v5.0 freeware version.)

    Disclaimer: I clone my disk once a month. And do frequent data
    backups. If something does go south, I won't lose much.
    []'s
    --
    Don't be evil - Google 2004
    We have a new policy - Google 2012
    Google Fuchsia - 2021

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)