• Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo, CPU, memory and a m.2 thingy. This work togethe

    From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 09:54:06 2024
    On Sunday, 16 June 2024 09:40:57 BST you wrote:
    On Sunday, 16 June 2024 05:55:45 BST Dale wrote:
    William Kenworthy wrote:
    On 16/6/24 07:07, Mark Knecht wrote:
    <SNIP>

    I still don't understand the efi thing. I'm booted up tho. I'm

    happy.

    Now to get temp sensors and stuff to work. I want to keep a eye on
    temps for a bit. I think the boot media was reporting the wrong
    info.
    Even the ambient temp was to high for this cool room. It showed like >> > 100F or something when my A/C is set to 68F or so. Plus, the side is >> > off the case at times. New battle. ;-)

    The side panel should help improve air flow through the case (depending on the design). I've seen CPU temperatures on big tower servers with dual
    xeon CPUs going up when the side panel was removed.

    Dale

    <SNIP>

    Hi Dale,

    Congrats on getting your new machine working. I think you've
    received

    a lot of good info on temperature effects but there is one thing I
    didn't
    see anyone talking about so I'll mention it here. (Note - my career was >> chip design in Silicon Valley so I'm speaking from experience in both
    chips and PCs that use them.

    First, don't worry too much about high temperatures hurting your

    processor or the chips in the system. They can stand up to 70C
    pretty much forever and 100C for long periods of time. Long before
    anything would get damaged at the chip level, if it ever gets damaged, >> you are going to have timing problems that would either cause the
    system to crash, corrupt data, or both, so temps are important
    but it won't be damage to the processor. (Assuming it's a good
    chip that meets all specs and is well tested which I'm sure yours
    is.

    The thing I think you should be aware of is that long-term high

    temps, while they don't hurt the processor, can very possibly degrade
    the thermal paste that is between your processor or M.2 chips
    and their heat sinks & fans. Thermal paste can and will degrade
    of time and high temps make it degrade faster so the temps you
    see today may not be the same as what you see 2 or 3 years from
    now.

    It used to be the case the thermal paste would dry out and needed replacing within 5 years or so. These days the top end thermal paste lasts longer and it is much more expensive, but I'm yet to find out how long it lasts. ;-)
    Now, the fun part. I wrote you a little Python program which on

    [snip ...]

    My complaint, the temps sensors is reporting is way higher than my IR thermometer says. Even what I think is the ambient temp is way off.
    I've googled and others report the same thing. During one compile, I pointed the IR sensor right at the base of the CPU cooler. It may not
    be as hot as the CPU is but it is closer than anything else. I measured like 80F or something

    That's approximating the TCase, but you're still not close enough to measure that temperature. You'd need to delid the CPU for this ... definitely NOT recommended.

    while sensors was reporting above 140F or so.

    That's the TjMax and for your 5800X CPU this is comfortably within the TjMax temperature of 194°F (90°C):

    https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ry zen-7-5800x.html#product-specs
    I
    can see a little difference but not that much. Besides, for the wattage the CPU uses, the cooler I have is waaaaaay overkill. I think my cooler
    is rated well above 200 watts. The CPU is around 100 watts, 105 I think
    or maybe 95.

    105W - see link above.

    Plus, this room is fairly cold. A/C currently set to
    68F. One can dispute the CPU temp I guess but not the ambient temp. If one is off, I suspect both are off.

    Not necessarily - where is the ambient temperature sensor located?

    Oh, the CPU fan isn't spinning fast
    either. I'd guess it isn't even running at half speed even when
    compiling and htop shows all cores/threads at the max.

    Your UEFI (BIOS) menu should have settings for tweaking the fans and
    changing their cooling profile to make them quieter, or spin them up
    sooner. Start with default settings and tune it up/down from there to
    match your needs.

    Take a look at the CPU Thermal Expectations in this article:

    https://www.pcgamer.com/amd-views-ryzen-5000-cpu-temperatures-up-to-95c-as-typical-and-by-design/

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 09:40:57 2024
    On Sunday, 16 June 2024 05:55:45 BST Dale wrote:
    William Kenworthy wrote:
    On 16/6/24 07:07, Mark Knecht wrote:
    <SNIP>

    I still don't understand the efi thing. I'm booted up tho. I'm

    happy.

    Now to get temp sensors and stuff to work. I want to keep a eye on
    temps for a bit. I think the boot media was reporting the wrong info. >> > Even the ambient temp was to high for this cool room. It showed like
    100F or something when my A/C is set to 68F or so. Plus, the side is
    off the case at times. New battle. ;-)

    The side panel should help improve air flow through the case (depending on the design). I've seen CPU temperatures on big tower servers with dual xeon CPUs going up when the side panel was removed.


    Dale

    <SNIP>

    Hi Dale,
    Congrats on getting your new machine working. I think you've received >> a lot of good info on temperature effects but there is one thing I
    didn't
    see anyone talking about so I'll mention it here. (Note - my career was
    chip design in Silicon Valley so I'm speaking from experience in both
    chips and PCs that use them.

    First, don't worry too much about high temperatures hurting your
    processor or the chips in the system. They can stand up to 70C
    pretty much forever and 100C for long periods of time. Long before
    anything would get damaged at the chip level, if it ever gets damaged,
    you are going to have timing problems that would either cause the
    system to crash, corrupt data, or both, so temps are important
    but it won't be damage to the processor. (Assuming it's a good
    chip that meets all specs and is well tested which I'm sure yours
    is.

    The thing I think you should be aware of is that long-term high
    temps, while they don't hurt the processor, can very possibly degrade
    the thermal paste that is between your processor or M.2 chips
    and their heat sinks & fans. Thermal paste can and will degrade
    of time and high temps make it degrade faster so the temps you
    see today may not be the same as what you see 2 or 3 years from
    now.

    It used to be the case the thermal paste would dry out and needed replacing within 5 years or so. These days the top end thermal paste lasts longer and it is much more expensive, but I'm yet to find out how long it lasts. ;-)


    Now, the fun part. I wrote you a little Python program which on
    [snip ...]

    My complaint, the temps sensors is reporting is way higher than my IR thermometer says. Even what I think is the ambient temp is way off.
    I've googled and others report the same thing. During one compile, I
    pointed the IR sensor right at the base of the CPU cooler. It may not
    be as hot as the CPU is but it is closer than anything else. I measured
    like 80F or something

    That's approximating the TCase, but you're still not close enough to measure that temperature. You'd need to delid the CPU for this ... definitely NOT recommended.

    while sensors was reporting above 140F or so.

    That's the TjMax and for your 5800X CPU this is comfortably within the TjMax temperature of 194°F (90°C):

    https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ryzen-7-5800x.html#product-specs


    I
    can see a little difference but not that much. Besides, for the wattage
    the CPU uses, the cooler I have is waaaaaay overkill. I think my cooler
    is rated well above 200 watts. The CPU is around 100 watts, 105 I think
    or maybe 95.

    105W - see link above.

    Plus, this room is fairly cold. A/C currently set to
    68F. One can dispute the CPU temp I guess but not the ambient temp. If
    one is off, I suspect both are off.

    Not necessarily - where is the ambient temperature sensor located?

    Oh, the CPU fan isn't spinning fast
    either. I'd guess it isn't even running at half speed even when
    compiling and htop shows all cores/threads at the max.

    Your UEFI (BIOS) menu should have settings for tweaking the fans and changing their cooling profile to make them quieter, or spin them up sooner. Start with default settings and tune it up/down from there to match your needs.

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  • From Frank Steinmetzger@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 15:00:04 2024
    Am Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 04:07:28PM -0700 schrieb Mark Knecht:

    Now, the fun part. I wrote you a little Python program which on
    my system is called Dales_Loop.py. This program has 3
    parameters - a value to count to, the number of cores to be used,
    and a timeout value to stop the program. Using a program like
    this can give you repeatable results.

    FYI, there is a problem with your approach: python is not capable of true multiprocessing. While you can have multiple threads in your programm, in
    the end they are executed by a single thread in a time-sharing manner.

    This problem is known as the GIL—the Global Interpreter Lock. Unless you use an external program to do the actual CPU work, i.e. let the linux kernel do the actual parallelism and not python, your program is not faster than doing everything in a single loop.

    See this page for a nice example which does basically the same as your
    program (heading “The Impact on Multi-Threaded Python Programs”), including
    some comparative benchmarking between single loop and threaded loops: https://realpython.com/python-gil/

    --
    Grüße | Greetings | Salut | Qapla’
    Please do not share anything from, with or about me on any social network.

    At night, when everybody sleeps, usually there’s nobody awake.

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  • From Peter Humphrey@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 16:20:01 2024
    On Sunday, 16 June 2024 14:35:34 BST Dale wrote:

    I mentioned I found the correct drivers for the CPU and other temps
    sensors but needed to reboot.

    What sensors are you using now? I just rely on what gkrellm finds; where it shows more than one CPU or GPU temp I choose the highest one.

    --
    Regards,
    Peter.

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  • From Rich Freeman@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Sun Jun 16 17:50:02 2024
    On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 12:55 AM Dale <[email protected]> wrote:

    Besides, for the wattage
    the CPU uses, the cooler I have is waaaaaay overkill. I think my cooler
    is rated well above 200 watts. The CPU is around 100 watts, 105 I think
    or maybe 95.

    So, I am just picking someplace a little random to reply to all of this.

    Normal temps vary by CPU model and you need to look up what is expected.

    All modern CPUs will throttle to maintain below a certain temp, and so
    if you have thermal issues you'll just get lower performance.

    A cooler might dissipate a certain amount of power, but that is going
    to be at a particular temp. Obviously a radiator that is at ambient temperature will dissipate no heat at all.

    The external temp of the CPU has nothing to do with the internal temp
    of the CPU, and a modern CPU can generate MUCH more heat than it can
    internally transfer to the surface of the die, and so internally it
    will heat up even if you use liquid cooling.

    As far as governors go, I'm not sure what is even recommended with
    Linux with modern CPUs. Most modern CPUs and their firmware manage
    heat/power based on performance limits. AMD calls this
    Performance-based Overclocking, but it is basically how they work even
    up to factory clock rates. Assuming you meet the cooling/power
    requirements the CPU can sustain a particular frequency on all its
    cores at once, and a higher frequency on only one core if the rest are
    idle, and then it has a maximum frequency that a small number of cores
    can temporarily exceed but internal temperature will rise when this
    happens until throttling kicks in (I think this is at least in part
    firmware modeled and not exclusively based on sensor data). This is
    all by design in a desktop CPU, and allows a CPU to have significantly
    better burst performance than sustained performance, which is a good
    approach as desktop loads tend to be bursty. I imagine server
    processors (like enterprise SSDs) are optimized more around sustained performance as they tend to be operated more at load.

    I suspect that the most recent CPU generations will work best if the
    hardware is allowed to manage frequency, with the OS at most being
    used to communicate whether a core is idle or not.

    --
    Rich

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  • From Wols Lists@21:1/5 to Michael on Mon Jun 17 01:30:01 2024
    On 16/06/2024 09:40, Michael wrote:
    Now to get temp sensors and stuff to work. I want to keep a eye on
    temps for a bit. I think the boot media was reporting the wrong info. >>>>> Even the ambient temp was to high for this cool room. It showed like >>>>> 100F or something when my A/C is set to 68F or so. Plus, the side is >>>>> off the case at times. New battle. 😉

    The side panel should help improve air flow through the case (depending on the
    design). I've seen CPU temperatures on big tower servers with dual xeon CPUs going up when the side panel was removed.

    My previous case had a cone connecting the CPU to a vent in the side.
    Whether that sucked warm case air over the CPU and vented it directly
    out, or sucked cool outside air over the CPU and vented it into the
    case, I don't know. Either way, the air flowing over the CPU was outside
    the case just before or after doing so.

    Cheers,
    Wol

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