Thanks for the answer!
On 03/21/23 Lionel Élie Mamane wrote:
Would a live BE<->LE translation be so different?
I thin so, yes.
So it would seem. I get it now, it would have a very deep impact on performance.
I'd rather have a slower but working emulated LE system than a in
theory faster BE system with constant problems, like the one
mentioned in Firefox.[5]
The one you link to in Firefox is not linked to little-endian vs
big-endian. In my understanding it happens on Power in little endian
mode, too.
True. I was thinking about my own Power Mac G5 that I used to try get
Gentoo Linux running on some years back. Compared to my x86 computers it
is a constant struggle! I don't think I've ever had so many regressions
between kernel and software updates than with this big endian machine.
I had them with Firefox, which didn't build. The problem got fixed back
than, but it was related to the different endianness.
If you look at comments about BE, you'll see that this is a problem.
There are examples everywhere.[1][2][3]
What does work, is using an older or non-cutting-edge distribution,
because it isn't that simple anymore to just "keep it rolling" like it
used to be.
I used Gentoo Linux on my Power Mac G4 and G5 about 10 years+ back. It
worked. Compared to now, it was still more of a reporting job than x86.
And bear in mind that I'm just a desktop user guy. In lack of another
word I'd call myself a "power user", in the sense that I use a rather complicated distribution such as Gentoo and that I regularly report
issues I have while my primary objective is to use my computer as a
desktop system - as a use, not as a developer. I cannot write core or
solve complicated compilation errors. But I can report them.
My two Power Mac G5s sit in the cellar waiting for me to put Gentoo on
them. I also tried Debian, but I was stuck due to a fatal decision to
use Btrfs and thus I'm stuck with the pagesize of the initial kernel I
used if I don't want to reformat the drives; which I don't want. So
additional to big endian problems, PPC64BE also has a problem with
different software requiring different pagesizes (4k vs. 64k).[4]
One of my Power Macs has a Radeon card, the other an Nvidia card. But in
the end both had considerable problems. Back in 2017/18/19, when I
worked on them, I couldn't even compile KDE Plasma Desktop properly
because PPC64BE was (temporarily) dropped. I think it's back in business
now, but comparing the available software to the one I'm using on my x86
laptop and desktop, I would have to invest considerably more time to get
the software up and running.
Of course I could always use a proven PPC64BE distribution, but most of
them include less software, also have constant issues with packages
suddenly dropping out due to failure to compile, and so on. In the end I
would end up with an older system, that somehow works, but always has
issues.
Hence my opinion/my observation, that PPC32BE and PPC64BE are not well supported on Linux anymore.
That said, I would love to have a truely open Linux system that is as performant and as supported as non-free x86 systems are today. But,
frankly, I don't see it.
Prove me wrong!
My Lenovo Legion 5 with state-of-the-art performance (AMD Zen 3,
integrated Radeon graphics for Linux - which is accelerated enough for
my Linux desktop use case, while it also has an Nvidia graphics card for
gaming on Windows; and it would provide the same on Linux if I were to
use the proprietary drivers, which I don't, while nouveau doesn't
support it yet). It did cost around 1800$.
If there were to come a similar system, truly open, for Linux only (so
no Windows gaming), and thus without the extra graphics (which I no have
from the dedicated Nvidia card), but with fully open firmware, it would
then only depend on the "feeling" I get for this laptop. A great
ThinkPad-like keyboard is a requirement for me, as well as the feeling
of quality (it shouldn't bend and it shouldn't give the impression of
cheap plastic). If it then has great performance (like, multiple cores
and en-par with current x86 CPUs, as well as reasonably accelerated
graphics, at least en-par with current Intel IGPs), I personally will
have no problem to pay the same price or a little bit more for less
performance (no gaming capable graphics card, a tiny bit less overall performance from the CPU/GPU), but fully open sourced, meaning no hidden functions (like Intels SSM) or closed firmware (like UEFI, TPM etc.).
Likewise, such a desktop motherboard adhering to standards (ATX,
periphery such as CPU and DIMM sockets and SATA/NVMe/PCIe/USB etc.) at a reasonable price (not like the Raptor II) I'd already have bought. Such mainboards cost around 200 to 800 $, the CPU is on a socket so it can
later be upgraded, as well as DIMM sockets for the memory.
If it were a truly open source system - in terms of firmware, IMHO the
CPU can be proprietary as long as it doesn't have closed functions (x86
SMM) - I'd be willing to pay up to 1000 $ for the board alone, and
another ~500 to 1000 $ for the CPU. The GPU should be PCIe based, but an
IGP option would also be great.
So, instead of a 2000 $ desktop with great performance and Windows
gaming capability I would spend 2000 $ on the mainboard + CPU alone,
which will add up to memory DIMMs and a graphics card and an NVMe and so
on, to get an open Linux system with truly open firmware all the way.
Okay.
But where is it?
The Raptor II, which still is more way more expensive than a great AMD
Zen 2 desktop, has some of the same issues with software as I have on my
Power Mac G5 (which obviously has a very bad performance in today's
standards). Sure, it's better because modern POWER/PowerPC is LE, but
the best Linux support remains with x86... At least on the desktop.
As a server or a specialized client with a very specific function, a lot
of different platforms are well supported. The Raspberry Pi is, and
that's Arm. But Arm isn't really open, is it? Also, the performance
isn't there for a real desktop system as well.
TL;DR
Long story, short: My personal experience has me hesitate to get an
overpriced desktop/laptop system when it's presumably away from
mainstream. And even when it's mainstream (Librem, ThinkPads with
libreboot), they're overpriced for the performance I get.
[1]
https://voidlinux-ppc.org/news/2021/11/big-endian.html
[2]
https://github.com/open-mpi/ompi/issues/4349
[3]
https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/2018/05/outstanding-projects-for-powerpc-64-big-endian/
[4]
https://www.talospace.com/2020/10/where-did-64k-page-size-come-from.html
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