• Re: please delete me from your mailing lists

    From Thomas Southerland@21:1/5 to Mathew Alexander on Sun Jul 20 11:40:01 2025
    On 7/20/25 5:21 AM, Mathew Alexander wrote:
    Mathew Alexander
    [email protected]



    WebRep
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    To unsubscribe from this list, send "unsubscribe" in the message subject to:
    <listname>[email protected]
    and you will be removed after your confirmation reply has been received.

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  • From Bret Busby@21:1/5 to Thomas Southerland on Sun Jul 20 12:00:01 2025
    On 20/7/25 17:37, Thomas Southerland wrote:

    On 7/20/25 5:21 AM, Mathew Alexander wrote:
    Mathew Alexander
    [email protected]



    WebRep
    Overall rating

    WebRep
    Overall rating


    To unsubscribe from this list, send "unsubscribe" in the message subject
    to:
        <listname>[email protected]
    and you will be removed after your confirmation reply has been received.



    Perhaps, the List Administrators could find worthwhile, to add a footer
    to the mailing list messages, something like

    "To unsubscribe, change your subscription mode, or view the list
    archive, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ "

    Simple, but (should be) effective.

    ..
    Bret Busby
    Armadale
    West Australia
    (UTC+0800)
    ..............

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  • From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to Bret Busby on Sun Jul 20 15:00:01 2025
    Hi,

    On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 05:48:01PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
    Perhaps, the List Administrators could find worthwhile, to add a footer to the mailing list messages, something like

    "To unsubscribe, change your subscription mode, or view the list archive,
    see https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ "

    Simple, but (should be) effective.

    In the past the Debian list admins have stated they will not do this,
    for a couple of reasons. One of the reasons is that altering the content
    of the message (which would also include any tags added to the subject
    line) would invalidate any DKIM signature present and make it harder for
    the message to be delivered.

    Most mailing lists that change the content by adding subject tags and/or footers also rewrite the From address to be from the list itself, e.g.
    in that configuration this list would have:

    From: Bret Busby via Debian User <[email protected]>

    The mail would then be signed on behalf of lists.debian.org and would be treated as a new email.

    Myself I think this was a sad concession that had to be made in the name
    of user experience and I did change most of the lists I operate to work
    this way. I don't expect Debian ever would though.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    PS your own email is DKIM-signed by busby.net but the signature is
    invalid here. It seems likely to me that you have signed too many
    headers and the list software has added or modified one of them.

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Andy Smith on Sun Jul 20 15:50:01 2025
    On Jul 20, 2025, Andy Smith wrote:
    Hi,

    On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 05:48:01PM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
    Perhaps, the List Administrators could find worthwhile, to add a footer to the mailing list messages, something like

    "To unsubscribe, change your subscription mode, or view the list archive, see https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ "

    Simple, but (should be) effective.

    In the past the Debian list admins have stated they will not do this,
    for a couple of reasons. One of the reasons is that altering the content
    of the message (which would also include any tags added to the subject
    line) would invalidate any DKIM signature present and make it harder for
    the message to be delivered.

    And it'd break signatures for those of us who use them. I *hated* yahoo
    groups (and, now, groups.io) for doing that.

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 20 16:10:01 2025
    Dan Purgert (HE12025-07-20):
    And it'd break signatures for those of us who use them. I *hated* yahoo groups (and, now, groups.io) for doing that.

    Can you explain what it means? I am subscribed to <https://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/> and I do not observe
    anything that looks like breaking signatures. Do you mean
    dash-dash-space-LF signatures or digital signatures?

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Sun Jul 20 17:40:01 2025
    On Jul 20, 2025, Nicolas George wrote:
    Dan Purgert (HE12025-07-20):
    And it'd break signatures for those of us who use them. I *hated* yahoo groups (and, now, groups.io) for doing that.

    Can you explain what it means? I am subscribed to <https://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/> and I do not observe
    anything that looks like breaking signatures. Do you mean
    dash-dash-space-LF signatures or digital signatures?

    Sorry, I meant digital signatures. Mailing list messing with the body
    means that the signature is no longer valid.

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 20 19:10:01 2025
    Dan Purgert (HE12025-07-20):
    Sorry, I meant digital signatures. Mailing list messing with the body
    means that the signature is no longer valid.

    Strange, I have in my archives mails from that mailing-list that are
    digitally signed, where a footer with unsubscribe instructions was
    added, and mutt still tells me “gpg: Good signature from”. One from
    today

    It is a pattern that I have observed with the authors of some Libre mail software: they tell you that they will never implement X because it is
    not possible without breaking Y but if you dig on these statements you
    realize that Y was broken by X only in a stupid implementation from the
    1990s and all other Libre software have been doing X without breaking Y
    for decades.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Nate Bargmann@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Sun Jul 20 19:30:01 2025
    * On 2025 20 Jul 12:08 -0500, Nicolas George wrote:
    Dan Purgert (HE12025-07-20):
    Sorry, I meant digital signatures. Mailing list messing with the body means that the signature is no longer valid.

    Strange, I have in my archives mails from that mailing-list that are digitally signed, where a footer with unsubscribe instructions was
    added, and mutt still tells me “gpg: Good signature from”. One from
    today

    I see the broken signatures on all the messages returned to me from
    groups.io. Then again, these are all amateur radio related groups and
    it seems that radio amateurs that are mailing list admins have a
    visceral hatred for digitally signed mail. YMMV

    It is a pattern that I have observed with the authors of some Libre mail software: they tell you that they will never implement X because it is
    not possible without breaking Y but if you dig on these statements you realize that Y was broken by X only in a stupid implementation from the
    1990s and all other Libre software have been doing X without breaking Y
    for decades.

    There has been software that was declared unmaintainable and later
    picked up by others and moved forward. As I recall XMMS became Beep
    Media Player which then became Audacious as others moved the software
    forward.

    - Nate

    --
    "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
    possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."
    Web: https://www.n0nb.us
    Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
    GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819


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  • From Bret Busby@21:1/5 to Lee on Sun Jul 20 22:20:01 2025
    On 21/7/25 03:06, Lee wrote:

    <snip>

    It's in the mail headers - which the 'please unsubscribe me' people
    don't know exists,

    "There are more things, in heaven and earth, than man has ever dreamed
    of"...

    :)

    Not only the " 'please unsubscribe me' people " did not know that exists...

    "The more we know, the more we know the little we know"...

    ..
    Bret Busby
    Armadale
    West Australia
    (UTC+0800)
    ..............

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  • From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to Jeffrey Walton on Mon Jul 21 01:40:01 2025
    Hi,

    On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 05:39:32PM -0400, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
    Maybe the List-Unsubscribe header would help, <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2369>. The list software can
    add it without worrying about breaking DKIM signatures.

    A good user agent would display a UI widget to act on List-Unsubscribe
    to make it easy to unsubscribe.

    But it's already present in this list's posts right now yet most mail
    clients do nothing with these headers since most popular mail clients
    are pitiful; something that I suspect is unlikely to change in either of
    our lifetimes.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

    "What should one say after making love? ``Thank you'' seems too much.
    ``I'm sorry'' - somehow not enough." — The League Against Tedium

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  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to Jeffrey Walton on Fri Jul 25 20:20:01 2025
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2025-07-25 at 13:07, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

    On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:37 PM Greg <[email protected]> wrote:

    On 2025-07-21, Anders Andersson <[email protected]> wrote:

    At some point you have to stop pandering to the absolute lowest
    common denominator.

    Postel's law:

    "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send.

    That's from a bygone era, when the internet was young and innocent.

    It's actually a programming guideline: applications should do their best
    to handle wide-ranging input (including malformed input) appropriately,
    but should constrain themselves to only emitting strictly-defined and well-formed output.

    The version of Postel's principle which I first became familiar with
    used the verb "emit" rather than "send".

    The principle does have its applicability to people, as well, but as
    with so many things the limits of implementation on human hardware are
    more constraining than those on electronic hardware; human beings have
    much tighter limits on such things as exhaustion, even if nothing else.

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 25 20:30:01 2025
    The Wanderer (HE12025-07-25):
    It's actually a programming guideline: applications should do their best
    to handle wide-ranging input (including malformed input) appropriately,
    but should constrain themselves to only emitting strictly-defined and well-formed output.

    And even in programming, it is not good advice: it creates a spiral
    where the programs that apply it become ever more tolerant, with all the
    code complexity and buts it entails, and the programs that do not apply
    it produce ever worsening garbage because the other programs will accept
    it.

    Remember the web? It started becoming usable for decent layout when it
    stopped applying this principle and trying to make something decent out
    of any soup of tags.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From James H. H. Lampert@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Fri Jul 25 21:10:01 2025
    On 7/25/25 11:24 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
    Remember the web? It started becoming usable for decent layout when it stopped applying this principle and trying to make something decent out
    of any soup of tags.

    Actually, no, it began breaking browsers when it tried to over-control
    them, and began to depend on features that weren't universally
    implemented, ignoring the principle of "graceful degradation," that was
    one of the founding principles of the web.

    --
    JHHL

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 25 21:30:01 2025
    James H. H. Lampert (HE12025-07-25):
    Actually, no, it began breaking browsers when it tried to over-control them, and began to depend on features that weren't universally implemented, ignoring the principle of "graceful degradation," that was one of the founding principles of the web.

    Yes, that is my point: breaking compatibility with eaters of soup of
    tags was what was necessary to get something that worked well.

    --
    Nicolas GEorge

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  • From Michael Paoli@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Mon Jul 28 01:10:01 2025
    Uhm, yeah, alas, far too often lists get hit with such requests.

    Below I copy boilerplate response (alas, as a listadmin) to seeing far
    too many such requests (e.g. emails to listadmins, or posts (or
    attempted posts) to lists, much etc.), plus with that, just some
    modest changes to make it (more) applicable to Debian's lists:

    Subject: Debian list(s) unsubscribe

    Subscribe/unsubscribe is self-service on Debian lists.

    You should be able to take care of subscribe/unsubscribe yourself.

    See the reference information (links, etc.) provided further below.

    Note also:
    o every list posting sent contains
    o headers starting with List-
    and which include information on how to unsubscribe, get help, etc.
    o See also:
    o https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#subunsu
    o https://lists.debian.org/

    If that still doesn't work for you, please provide:
    o The error diagnostic(s) (if any) you're getting when you attempt to
    unsubscribe.
    o What steps you're following that result in the above (never tell me/us
    nor anyone your password(s), but otherwise provide relevant details)
    o FULL EMAIL HEADERS of an example message that you're getting or still
    getting that you're trying to unsubscribe from.

    Hopefully you should be able to self-unsubscribe, but if that fails,
    please let us know, as noted above.

    Thanks for your attention to this and your cooperation,

    The busy Debian / list administrator folks.


    Anyway, annoying that there's still some call/need for such responses,
    but at least have generally found version of such boilerplate response
    to be pretty effective. For the specific lists, they also include some relevant footer info in message body, so that's also mentioned (alas,
    far too many folks can't even bother to read that - that's part of the
    problem, so no, adding such is far from a 100% solution). And in the
    case of Debian, may want to do something like add link that tells folks
    how they can view full email headers, since, alas, many don't know how
    to do that (or even what's being talked about), and perhaps bit more
    applicable in case of Debian's lists, as there isn't added footers or
    headers in body of postings themselves with links (directly or
    indirectly) to some of that material. But yeah, after having received
    far too many requests, just made the boilerplate response, and any
    further such requests just got that ... and seems to work pretty dang
    well. Annoying that needing to send such is occasionally rather to
    quite called for, but the results are pretty dang effective. Most can generally reasonably well figure out and do the needed with those
    additional almost spoon fed pointers and tips and information. Yeah, I
    don't think I've ever yet had one make it so far as to have it not
    working and actually following up with relevant diagnostic information.
    And the very few that still can't manage after that, and still complain
    and request removal ... well, can only do so much.

    So, yeah, Debian lists - maybe something like that,
    and relevant link about email headers, e.g.: https://www.google.com/search?q=view+full+email+header
    would then cover it.

    Maybe "next time" I/we just link to the archived copy of this post. ;-)

    On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 2:22 AM Mathew Alexander <[email protected]> wrote:
    Mathew Alexander
    [email protected]
    WebRep
    Overall rating

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