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Wolf (HE12025-07-09):

After some system updates, the keyboard and the mouse become unusable
(and the keyboard is not illuminated) during boot: I cannot access
BIOS and cannot select grub entries.
Then, once system started, both keyboard and mouse become usable.

What you describe is an issue in your system firmware: the devices start working when Linux takes control, the problem is not Linux.

Later, after other system updates, the the keyboard and the mouse are
working again during boot, and so on: the on/off cycle repeats.

That was not clear.

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

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Wolf composed on 2025-07-09 08:34 (UTC):

I need to identify a package to fill a bug report and I need help for that.

On my laptop (Debian unstable) I'm using external illuminated keyboard and mouse connected to

- Dell dock connected via thunderbolt

or
- U2724de Dell monitor also connected via thunderbolt

After some system updates, the keyboard and the mouse become unusable (and the keyboard is not illuminated) during boot: I cannot access BIOS and cannot select grub entries.
Then, once system started, both keyboard and mouse become usable.

Later, after other system updates, the the keyboard and the mouse are working again during boot, and so on: the on/off cycle repeats.

Which package I need to fill into the bug report?

How long ago did you get this keyboard? Did it previously work as expected, and only recently did this behavior appear?

This may have nothing to do with Debian or any OS. It could be either firmware in
the motherboard, or firmware in the keyboard, or a combination of both. My brother
bought me a keyboard last year like he bought himself that he thought was fabulous. It was worthless for getting into BIOS setup or making Grub selection with at least some of my computers, so I gave it back to him. I don't remember whether it was only with legacy BIOS (old) or only UEFI (more recent) or both. --
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Felix Miata (HE12025-07-09):

This may have nothing to do with Debian or any OS. It could be either firmware in
the motherboard

Nit: the firmware in the motherboard is an operating system.

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

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--Apple-Mail-D27A693A-265F-490A-B8A8-B0EB7C5087E7
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 9 Jul 2025, at 17:30, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2025-07-09, Nicolas George <[email protected]> wrote:

Felix Miata (HE12025-07-09):

This may have nothing to do with Debian or any OS. It could be either firmware in
the motherboard

Nit: the firmware in the motherboard is an operating system.

Is the firmware in the motherboard otherwise referred to as the BIOS?

Some of it - the firmware dealing with low level I/O. There’s also firmware in just about every embedded device on the board (wireless card, sound card, serial busses, etc) which isn’t part of the BIOS

J
—
John Dow <[email protected]>
Written by a human.


--Apple-Mail-D27A693A-265F-490A-B8A8-B0EB7C5087E7
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><br>On 9 Jul 2025, at 17:30, Greg &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br>
<br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>On 2025-07-09, Nicolas George &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:</span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Felix Miata (HE12025-07-09):</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><
blockquote type="cite"><span>This may have nothing to do with Debian or any OS. It could be either firmware in</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>the motherboard</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><
blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Nit: the firmware in the motherboard is an operating system.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Is the firmware in the motherboard otherwise referred to as the
BIOS?</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Some of it - the firmware dealing with low level I/O. There’s also firmware in just about every embedded device on the board (wireless card, sound card, serial busses, etc) which isn’t part of the
BIOS<div><br></div><div>J<br><div><div dir="ltr">—&nbsp;<div>John Dow &lt;[email protected]&gt;</div><div><p style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto;
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">
Written by a human.</p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></body></html> --Apple-Mail-D27A693A-265F-490A-B8A8-B0EB7C5087E7--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Clumsy and inefficient:

(I'm subscribed there. No need to Cc: me.)

Clean and efficient:

Reply-To: [email protected]

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
does not deliver a page, although ping lists.debian.org works fine.

Works for me. Either a transient problem or a problem on your side.

Are alternative archive URLs known ? E.g. to USENET linux.debian.user ?

Gmane has them, it seems.

Wolf wrote:

I don't think it's a firmware problem: both the keyboard and the mouse are working after boot.

That's possibly because the Linux drivers perform some settings on
the hardware. The boot firmware (EFI ?) and GRUB obviously don't do
what is needed.

Indeed. The described problem is EXACTLY what we should expect if the
firmware has lost ability to drive USB but the Linux kernel still works.

Regards,

--
Nicolas George

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

It seems that "firmware-sof-signed" upgrade changed some uefi security settings not visible in settings screen.

Thank you for the help,

Wolf


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Thursday, 10 July 2025 at 09:58, Thomas Schmitt <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

please reply to the list [email protected] instead to
me in private. (I'm subscribed there. No need to Cc: me.)

Since i seem to be the only responder who send you a Cc: , i wanted
to point you to the other answers to your initial mail in the list
archives. But
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/
does not deliver a page, although ping lists.debian.org works fine.

Are alternative archive URLs known ? E.g. to USENET linux.debian.user ?

The content of your in-private reply does not look like it is
confidential. So i quote from it publicly.

Wolf wrote:

I don't think it's a firmware problem: both the keyboard and the mouse are working after boot.

That's possibly because the Linux drivers perform some settings on
the hardware. The boot firmware (EFI ?) and GRUB obviously don't do
what is needed.

Recent history:
More than a month ago, keyboard become unusable after upgrade.
But, last week, an upgrade solved the problem: ---------------------------------------------------------------
Start-Date: 2025-07-04 07:41:06
Commandline: apt upgrade
Requested-By: g (1000)
Upgrade: libvirt-common:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libperl5.40:amd64 (5.40.1-3, 5.40.1-5), libvirt-daemon-driver-storage-logical:amd64 (11.3.0-2,
11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-config-nwfilter:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-xen:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), perl:amd64 (5.40.1-3, 5.40.1-5), libvirt-daemon:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), ibus-gtk3:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), ibus-gtk4:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), firefox-nightly:amd64 (142.0a1~20250702212902, 142.0a1~20250703203803), python3-ibus-1.0:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), libvirt-daemon-driver-storage-disk:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-plugin-lockd:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-storage-iscsi:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-nodedev:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), grub-efi-amd64-unsigned:amd64 (2.12-8, 2.12-9), libvirt-daemon-lock:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt0:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), grub-efi-amd64:amd64 (2.12-8, 2.12-9), libvirt-daemon-driver-nwfilter:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-vbox:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3),
gir1.2-ibus-1.0:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), ibus-data:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), libvirt-daemon-driver-qemu:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), grub-efi-amd64-signed:amd64 (1+2.12+8, 1+2.12+9), libvirt-clients:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-common:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), anydesk:amd64 (7.0.0, 7.0.1), libvirt-daemon-log:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3),
libvirt-daemon-driver-secret:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-config-network:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-l10n:amd64
(11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), gnome-control-center-data:amd64 (1:48.2-2, 1:48.3-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-interface:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), grub-efi-amd64-bin:amd64 (2.12-8, 2.12-9), grub2-common:amd64 (2.12-8, 2.12-9), plasma-nm:amd64 (4:6.3.4-1, 4:6.3.4-2), perl-base:amd64 (5.40.1-3, 5.40.1-5), grub-common:amd64 (2.12-8, 2.12-9), libvirt-daemon-driver-network:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), ibus-gtk:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), gnome-control-center:amd64 (1:48.2-2, 1:48.3-3), ibus:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), libvirt-daemon-system:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), perl-modules-5.40:amd64 (5.40.1-3, 5.40.1-5), libvirt-daemon-driver-storage-mpath:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libibus-1.0-5:amd64 (1.5.32-1, 1.5.32-2), libvirt-daemon-driver-storage-scsi:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3), libvirt-daemon-driver-lxc:amd64 (11.3.0-2, 11.3.0-3)
End-Date: 2025-07-04 07:41:35 ---------------------------------------------------------------

The keyboard and the mouse worked well, but two days later, after the another upgrade ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Start-Date: 2025-07-06 09:27:29
Commandline: apt upgrade
Requested-By: g (1000)
Upgrade: firefox-nightly:amd64 (142.0a1~20250704212032, 142.0a1~20250705211551), firmware-sof-signed:amd64 (2025.01-1, 2025.05-1), mobile-broadband-provider-info:amd64 (20240407-1, 20250613-2)
End-Date: 2025-07-06 09:27:35 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

the keyboard and the mouse are, again, not available at boot.
Any thought about firmware-sof-signed package?

Debian's package info infrastructure is unresponsive too: https://packages.debian.org/unstable/firmware-sof-signed

So:
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/plucky/+package/firmware-sof-signed
"Intel SOF firmware - signed
Provides the Intel SOF audio firmware and topology needed for audio functionality on some Intel system."

This does not look overly suspicious for sabotaging a keyboard.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Friday, 11 July 2025 at 14:41, Thomas Schmitt <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

Wolf wrote:

My default settings in EFI was Thunderbolt security: OFF.
Today, I changed security from OFF to "User Authorization" and now keyboard is working.
I tested changing back from "User Authorization" to OFF and the keyboard
became unusable again.

I wrote:

(So Thunderbolt is off, not the security. {:)

Max Nikulin wrote:

Might it be related to requirement of physical presence as an attempt to protect against unauthorized changing of boot options? Depending on firmware
implementation it may trust some input devices more than others.

That's what i, too, fuzzily understand from "Thunderbolt security:".

The question is what manipulates this setting so that the keyboard is accepted or not accepted before Linux is up.

If it is indeed the upgrade of some Debian packages, then we only have
three candidates for disabling the keyboard: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Start-Date: 2025-07-06 09:27:29
Commandline: apt upgrade
Requested-By: g (1000)
Upgrade: firefox-nightly:amd64 (142.0a1~20250704212032, 142.0a1~20250705211551), firmware-sof-signed:amd64 (2025.01-1, 2025.05-1), mobile-broadband-provider-info:amd64 (20240407-1, 20250613-2)
End-Date: 2025-07-06 09:27:35 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

I posted this in a quote from an inadvertedly private mail by Wolf: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/[email protected]
The list of suspects for enabling is in there too. But much longer.

The open problem is how to verify or disprove that above upgrade run
really causes the change in the EFI setting.
I would propose "apt-get install --reinstall" but have to confess that
i am too cowardish to test such a proposal before making it and that i
also don't know how much this resembles an "apt upgrade" which installs
the same packages.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

As I'm doing upgrades daily, and, usually, reboot the system after, I can somehow detect involved packages.
But I reinstalled all grub related packages listed in the lengthy upgrade and the keyboard did not turn on. Maybe more packages are involved.

The problem may be related to how some EFI settings are read by different modules.

I have an illuminated keyboard, so I detected 3 changes when thunderbolt security set to user authorization.

1. the keyboard is activated and I can interact with EFI
2. the keyboard is switched off for a moment
3. the keyboard is switched on and I can interact with grub.

When thunderbolt security is turned OFF (not thunderbolt turned off!) all 3 steps are skipped, I can use keyboard only after Linux image is loaded.

I think "security OFF" value read from EFI is ignored by the last bootloader, but "user authorization" is respected.



Thanks,

Wolf

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