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  • Re: Please, don't reply to spam -- much less on list

    From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 27 16:10:01 2025
    Greg (HE12025-06-27):
    Bounce can and does mean a rejection of the email by the *server*

    No, that is not accurate. Server rejecting a mail and server bouncing a
    mail are different mechanism.

    The server rejects the mail by returning an error code at SMTP level. No
    bounce is generated.

    If the server has accepted the mail but something later fails, it cannot
    return the error through the protocol, so the solution is to generate a delivery status notification message, commonly called bounce.

    The confusion comes from the fact that SMTP operates with relays: if the
    next relay rejects the mail, then the previous relay has to generate
    delivery status notification message.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Alain D D Williams@21:1/5 to Greg on Fri Jun 27 16:50:01 2025
    On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 02:19:22PM -0000, Greg wrote:

    What is a Bounce Email? Definition: A bounce email is an email that has
    not been delivered to its recipient. It is sent back to the sender with
    an error message.

    https://www.altospam.com/en/glossary/bounce/

    The word "bounce" in relation to email has multiple definitions. The above is the one most commonly used.

    On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 10:32:40AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

    This is the terminology that mutt uses.

    +1

    I use mutt as my MUA; I will occasionally "bounce" an email, eg I had sent an email to several people but forgot one who I had meant to send it to; so I will "bounce" my archived copy to them.

    Is it confusing? Yes. Could a better word have been chosen? Probably.
    But this is what they chose.

    +1

    --
    Alain Williams
    Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
    +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
    Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
    #include <std_disclaimer.h>

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 27 16:50:02 2025
    Greg (HE12025-06-27):
    What is a Bounce Email? Definition: A bounce email is an email that has
    not been delivered to its recipient. It is sent back to the sender with
    an error message.

    https://www.altospam.com/en/glossary/bounce/

    Do people our age need explaining that not everything written is true?

    I'm ready for a real definition, if you have one. But bounce seems
    certainly not to mean redirecting the email once received to another recipient.

    Do people our age need explaining that words can have multiple meanings, especially technical words used in different fields?

    --
    Nicolas George

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  • From Charles Curley@21:1/5 to Nicolas George on Fri Jun 27 23:00:01 2025
    On Fri, 27 Jun 2025 16:43:00 +0200
    Nicolas George <[email protected]> wrote:

    Do people our age need explaining that words can have multiple
    meanings, especially technical words used in different fields?

    Hear, hear. Especially after this thread has shown exactly that to a
    fault.

    --
    Does anybody read signatures any more?

    https://charlescurley.com
    https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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  • From Stephan Seitz@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 28 12:10:01 2025
    Am Sa, Jun 28, 2025 at 10:11:09 +0900 schrieb John Crawley:
    It is not the accepted meaning of the term. >>https://github.com/mjg59/jargon/blob/master/bounce
    Mutt seems to have its own set of definitions which mutt users will need
    to grasp.

    I can assure you that mutt’s meaning of bounce is older than mutt.
    Elm used this word and feature long before.

    Stephan

    --
    | If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it. |

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Stephan Seitz on Sat Jun 28 13:20:02 2025
    On Sat, Jun 28, 2025 at 11:52:33AM +0200, Stephan Seitz wrote:
    Am Sa, Jun 28, 2025 at 10:11:09 +0900 schrieb John Crawley:
    It is not the accepted meaning of the term. https://github.com/mjg59/jargon/blob/master/bounce
    Mutt seems to have its own set of definitions which mutt users will need
    to grasp.

    I can assure you that mutt’s meaning of bounce is older than mutt.
    Elm used this word and feature long before.

    I think I've tried to explain extensively. But I failed.

    Originally, bounce meant "MTA doesn't know how to pass on this
    message, so sending back to original sender". For reasons (also
    explained in this thread), this has come out of fashion.

    MUA "bounce" is not exactly the same (the user has a chance to
    specify *which* address to send the bounce to, for one), but
    technically so close (as much of the headers as possible remains
    unchanged), that calling it a bounce does make sense.

    So it is clear why Elm, Mutt and other civilised MUAs call it
    this way.

    But hey. That's my last attempt, since my loop detector is already
    at 11 ;-)

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From Nicolas George@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 29 11:20:01 2025
    [email protected] (HE12025-06-28):
    MUA "bounce" is not exactly the same (the user has a chance to
    specify *which* address to send the bounce to, for one), but
    technically so close (as much of the headers as possible remains
    unchanged), that calling it a bounce does make sense.

    This is not accurate.

    MUA bounces are injected as is as an outgoing mail, with all their
    headers and all their bodies. Any change comes later in the transmission
    and delivery.

    MTA bounces, i.e. delivery status notifications, are entirely new mails,
    with minimal headers telling you where it comes from and with an
    (usually incomprehensible) explanation in the body. They contain the
    full header of the original mail and sometimes but not always its body,
    either directly in the body or as a MIME attachment.

    In termes of structure, MTA bounces are much closer to MUA forwards than
    MUA bounces. And MTA forwards are much closer to MUA bounces than MUA
    forwards.

    Regards,

    --
    Nicolas George

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