• Re: "solved" in message subject

    From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to Max Nikulin on Fri Apr 4 18:00:01 2025
    Hi,

    On Fri, Apr 04, 2025 at 10:22:47AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
    I am neutral to this recommendations. Just some considerations...

    I rarely use Gmail web UI, but this time I was curious enough to check its behavior.

    As I keep pointing out, and you have covered again here, any change of
    subject is disastrous for the gmail web UI and the web UI of most of the
    other large mailbox providers, which together count for the vast
    majority of active email users even on extremely technical and ageing population lists like this one.

    However some still seem to desire the idea of a "SOLVED" tag on the
    basis that it provides some benefit for the web archives as provided by
    Debian and most others.

    On the whole I don't much care either way. It feels a bit like
    squabbling over the colour of the deck chairs on the RMS Titanic. I
    personally am never going to change a subject line unless the topic of
    the mail itself changes (and I remember). I just wish people arguing for
    one thing or the other would admit the trade-offs.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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  • From Fred@21:1/5 to Andy Smith on Fri Apr 4 21:10:01 2025
    HI,

    One reason to use the "solved" tag is to let everyone know that the OP
    has solved the problem and moved on so that others don't continue to
    waste their time and effort trying to find a solution when the OP has
    moved on and won't need to respond any more.

    Best regards,
    Fred


    On 4/4/25 08:58, Andy Smith wrote:
    Hi,

    On Fri, Apr 04, 2025 at 10:22:47AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
    I am neutral to this recommendations. Just some considerations...

    I rarely use Gmail web UI, but this time I was curious enough to check its >> behavior.

    As I keep pointing out, and you have covered again here, any change of subject is disastrous for the gmail web UI and the web UI of most of the other large mailbox providers, which together count for the vast
    majority of active email users even on extremely technical and ageing population lists like this one.

    However some still seem to desire the idea of a "SOLVED" tag on the
    basis that it provides some benefit for the web archives as provided by Debian and most others.

    On the whole I don't much care either way. It feels a bit like
    squabbling over the colour of the deck chairs on the RMS Titanic. I personally am never going to change a subject line unless the topic of
    the mail itself changes (and I remember). I just wish people arguing for
    one thing or the other would admit the trade-offs.

    Thanks,
    Andy


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  • From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to Fred on Fri Apr 4 22:40:01 2025
    Hi,

    On Fri, Apr 04, 2025 at 11:59:23AM -0700, Fred wrote:
    One reason to use the "solved" tag is to let everyone know that the OP has solved the problem

    Do you understand that Max and I are saying that the way the web UI for
    gmail and other large mailbox providers works is that as soon as you
    change a subject line it breaks the thread and places those mails in
    their own separate group? So no, for the majority of subscribed readers
    doing such a thing will not "let everyone know that the OP has solved
    the problem" because the hint of that will be somewhere far away
    seemingly in another thread.

    This "SOLVED" thing comes from web forums, which work completely
    differently.

    So then the argument changes to not be in aid of current subscribers but for hypothetical future readers of the web archives of the list.

    Thanks,
    Andy

    --
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  • From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Max Nikulin on Sat Apr 5 00:10:01 2025
    On Fri, Apr 04, 2025 at 10:22:47AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
    On 02/04/2025 05:17, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
    I see the changing of title or subject to add things like "SOLVED" is
    not included in the FAQ.

    I am neutral to this recommendations. Just some considerations...

    I rarely use Gmail web UI, but this time I was curious enough to check its behavior.


    Max,

    Thank you very much for experimenting and actually providing some hard data.

    I would not recommend editing subject in Gmail web UI to add "solved". Sometimes In-Reply-To and References headers are lost. So there is no guarantee that the thread will not be broken. (Perhaps closing compose popup and resuming the draft later affects behavior. General impression is that it is rather fragile.)


    OK, understood.

    When reading mail, minor subject changes like "solved" are hidden within a conversation. Subject is rendered once above messages. So efforts to mark a message may not be noticed.

    Again when reading mail, if subject is changed almost completely: "Old" to "New (was: Old)" to "New" with "(was: ...)" stripped by e.g. Thunderbird or Emacs; then the thread is split into 3 conversations, threading headers are not respected.


    Bother - is that the fault of the MUA?


    "Solved" is never removed from subject, making it close to useless if the message caused continuation of discussion. In this sense messengers and web forums with their likes and thanks may be better to mark useful messages in long threads.


    This is the real problem: threads here go on for months and years.

    Let's avoid discussions if gmail should be used. De-facto it is widely used, it has features and limitations. My point is that gmail users should be
    aware that some suggestions perfectly valid for other MUA should be avoided in the mail.google.com web application.


    OK - So the monthly FAQ here says to change subjects / create a summary.
    I think this probably came from reading the Debian Community Guidelines originally from Enrico Zini at https://people.debian.org/~enrico/dcg/

    It does not currently explicitly say "use SOLVED"

    The Debian mailing list Code of Conduct does say to wrap at 80 characters
    but says nothing about subject changes.
    It *does* say to use common sense.

    I'll take out the recommendation to change subjects as it stands and add a
    note that changing subject can break certain mail user agents.
    Instead, I will suggest that a new mail should be composed with a
    meaningful subject line.

    (As a side note: The web interface does benefit from [SOLVED] as being visible. I just found an example accidentally by looking at April 2024 rather than at April 2025 - but the good effect was ruined as the thread then continued for far too long.)

    I hope this is satisfactory to all concerned: if it isn't, please reply
    in a new mail with a meaningful subject.

    With every good wish, as ever,

    Andy Cater
    ([email protected])

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Byunghee_HWANG_=28=ED=99=@21:1/5 to Jeffrey Walton on Sun Apr 6 10:40:01 2025
    Hellow Jeff,

    Jeffrey Walton <[email protected]> writes:

    On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 11:23 PM Max Nikulin <[email protected]> wrote:
    [...]
    Let's avoid discussions if gmail should be used. De-facto it is widely
    used, it has features and limitations. My point is that gmail users
    should be aware that some suggestions perfectly valid for other MUA
    should be avoided in the mail.google.com web application.

    I've avoided this argument since it seems like a fallacious argument
    for gratuitous subject changes, but it may explain the use of Gmail
    and friends...

    One thing to remember about big tech email services, like Gmail,
    Hotmail and Yahoo Mail: The companies are driving modern web and
    internet security standards. If you want multifactor authentication
    (MFA) on your email account, then you will likely need to use one from
    big tech. The big tech companies incorporate FIDO, FIDO2 and WebAuthn protocols. (There are some 3rd party email services also providing
    MFA, but it is not standardized and the smaller companies are the
    exception, not the rule).

    Sadly, the IETF has not managed to provide an email standard that
    includes MFA taken workflows. The IETF's email standards are still
    just password based. The IETF has been asleep at the wheel.

    There are some awful looking proposals on occasion. The proposals are
    awful looking (to me) because they do things like add email+http
    instead of adding new email verbs to just the existing email RFCs like
    RFC 5321 (SMTP), RFC 3501 (IMAP) and RFC 1939 (POP).

    If anyone is interested in following the IETF's progress (or lack
    thereof), join the IETF's mailmaint mailing list. See <https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mailmaint/about/>.

    I've been interested in email standards for a long time. Thank you so
    much for the IETF link.

    Jeff


    Sincerely, Byunghee

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Sun Apr 6 13:00:01 2025
    On Fri Apr 4, 2025 at 11:01 PM BST, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    This is the real problem: threads here go on for months and years.

    Why is this a problem?

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    [email protected]
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Greg on Sun Apr 6 19:10:01 2025
    On Sun Apr 6, 2025 at 2:13 PM BST, Greg wrote:
    On 2025-04-06, Jonathan Dowland <[email protected]> wrote:
    On Fri Apr 4, 2025 at 11:01 PM BST, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    This is the real problem: threads here go on for months and years.

    Why is this a problem?

    Because in the modern age we need things that start instantly and end rapidly.

    I don't feel like this is a serious answer.


    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    [email protected]
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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