• help, man, etc. (was Re: Using terminal commands - corner cases)

    From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 27 16:50:02 2024
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2024-11-27 at 09:28, [email protected] wrote:

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 02:18:02PM +0000, Eric S Fraga wrote:

    And, just for the record, should you want to find out more about
    commands on Linux without leaving your system (i.e. without any
    interaction with the Internet at all), the man command is available
    to present the manual pages (dates back to when there was an actual
    manual in early unix days) for individual commands, e.g.

    man bash

    which will describe in quite some detail how to use the shell and

    man -k somekeyword

    will allow to search man pages.

    bash itself also has a help system: type "help" :-)

    Good points -- as a tip, turn things around: first try "help foo",
    then "man foo" whenever you don't know whether what you have is a
    builtin or a command.

    And yes, it's a pity there is no common frontend for both.

    There's also 'info foo', which for some values of foo will be more
    helpful than either of the above, for others will provide exactly the
    same information through a different interface, and for others will
    provide no information at all.


    This (multiple commands to find the documentation for a command, with no unified way to look in all the places at once) reminds me of something
    that's been in the back of my mind for a long time, and which I've
    occasionally gone looking about, but never managed to find an answer on/for.


    There is a document which I apparently don't have locally, and don't
    remember where I first found, but which is still hosted (in various
    formats, none of which are quite what I remember having seen, though the contents match) in various locations on the current Web. I remember its
    having been called "Draft of the UNIX Hierarchy". One location for it
    which I find in searching today is:

    https://www.cs.earlham.edu/~skylar/humor/Unix/unix.hierarchy.html

    Many of the items it lists are obsolete regarding modern usage of,
    knowledge of, and familiarity with Linux, and in terms of the
    developments in the culture of the use of UNIX and its derivatives over
    the time since the document was written, but many of them are still sufficiently on point to be understandable as reference points. (As a
    side note, I would be interested in seeing - and might be interested in
    helping to write - an updated version of such a list.)


    When I first read this document, there were many references on it which
    I did not understand. (One prominent example: I did not know who Dennis,
    Bill, and Ken were.) Since then, I have managed to educate myself
    sufficiently to be able to understand nearly all of them - with one
    prominent exception.

    One of the items on the list, under the characteristics of a
    "knowledgeable user", is the entry:

    * has learned that learn doesn't help

    I have never managed to find out what 'learn' is supposed to have been.
    No Linux or other *nix-derived system I've ever used has had a command
    by that name. I've never managed to find a document which mentions it in
    a way that would give a hint as to in what context the term would have
    existed, or what it would have been *supposed to* do (whether or not it actually did it).

    Does anyone have an idea what this old reference may be talking about?

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to The Wanderer on Wed Nov 27 17:10:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 10:40:44 -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
    One of the items on the list, under the characteristics of a
    "knowledgeable user", is the entry:

    * has learned that learn doesn't help

    I have never managed to find out what 'learn' is supposed to have been.
    No Linux or other *nix-derived system I've ever used has had a command
    by that name.

    https://www.unix.com/man-page/bsd/1/LEARN/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to The Wanderer on Wed Nov 27 18:00:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 10:40:44AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
    On 2024-11-27 at 09:28, [email protected] wrote:

    [...]

    And yes, it's a pity there is no common frontend for both.
    [help and man]


    There's also 'info foo', which for some values of foo will be more
    helpful than either of the above, for others will provide exactly the
    same information through a different interface, and for others will
    provide no information at all.

    The nice thing about info is that it /actually/ falls back to the man
    page when no info page is available. So it is a common front-end of
    sorts for both. OTOH, the venerable groff has gained a hyperlink markup recently [1] ("recently" in its time scale), thus bridging yet another
    gap separating man and info.

    [...]

    * has learned that learn doesn't help

    [...]

    Does anyone have an idea what this old reference may be talking about?

    Although I did some first Unix steps on a "real" AT&T (a port for M68K),
    with ksh (and a vi which dumped core on lines >1K!), I have no clue,
    sorry.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Wed Nov 27 18:10:02 2024
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 11:03:48AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 10:40:44 -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
    One of the items on the list, under the characteristics of a
    "knowledgeable user", is the entry:

    * has learned that learn doesn't help

    I have never managed to find out what 'learn' is supposed to have been.
    No Linux or other *nix-derived system I've ever used has had a command
    by that name.

    https://www.unix.com/man-page/bsd/1/LEARN/

    Wow :-)

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to The Wanderer on Wed Nov 27 18:50:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 12:24:25PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
    On 2024-11-27 at 11:59, [email protected] wrote:

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 10:40:44AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:

    On 2024-11-27 at 09:28, [email protected] wrote:

    And yes, it's a pity there is no common frontend for both.

    [help and man]

    There's also 'info foo', which for some values of foo will be more
    helpful than either of the above, for others will provide exactly
    the same information through a different interface, and for others
    will provide no information at all.

    The nice thing about info is that it /actually/ falls back to the
    man page when no info page is available. So it is a common front-end
    of sorts for both.

    ...huh. So it does, apparently.

    Even at this point I still live and learn. I always thought it was just
    that a few particular packages had had their man pages blindly converted
    to info format so the packager could ship documentation in both formats.

    To be honest, I think I'd kind of rather that it didn't do that... but
    it's not like it's hard to recognize the converted-from-man-page
    presentation and quit the viewer, when it does happen.

    It tells you, though. For example, if I do "info ldd", apart from the
    giveaway in the heading, as you observe, the footer page says:

    -----Info: (*manpages*)ldd, 65 lines --Top---

    So it ain't cheating, honest ;-)

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 27 18:30:01 2024
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2024-11-27 at 11:59, [email protected] wrote:

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2024 at 10:40:44AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:

    On 2024-11-27 at 09:28, [email protected] wrote:

    And yes, it's a pity there is no common frontend for both.

    [help and man]

    There's also 'info foo', which for some values of foo will be more
    helpful than either of the above, for others will provide exactly
    the same information through a different interface, and for others
    will provide no information at all.

    The nice thing about info is that it /actually/ falls back to the
    man page when no info page is available. So it is a common front-end
    of sorts for both.

    ...huh. So it does, apparently.

    Even at this point I still live and learn. I always thought it was just
    that a few particular packages had had their man pages blindly converted
    to info format so the packager could ship documentation in both formats.

    To be honest, I think I'd kind of rather that it didn't do that... but
    it's not like it's hard to recognize the converted-from-man-page
    presentation and quit the viewer, when it does happen.

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


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