• BD backup?

    From Eben King@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 16 18:40:02 2024
    My wife bought a Blu-ray disk at a library sale, and now I need to transcode its contents and stick them on the media server so we can watch it. So, I
    did the naïve thing and tried to read it using Handbrake 1.6.1. It read titles 23 (5:00) and 25 (0:47). Obviously something's not right. DVDs work properly, but this is the first BD I've tried. What do I need to add to
    make it work? Thanks.

    eben@cerberus:~$ lsb_release -a
    No LSB modules are available.
    Distributor ID: Debian
    Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
    Release: 12
    Codename: bookworm

    eben@cerberus:~$ sudo hdparm -i /dev/sr0
    [sudo] password for eben:

    /dev/sr0:

    Model=HL-DT-ST BD-RE WH14NS40, FwRev=1.05, SerialNo=KL9O53C1412
    Config={ Fixed Removable DTR<=5Mbs DTR>10Mbs nonMagnetic }
    RawCHS=0/0/0, TrkSize=0, SectSize=0, ECCbytes=0
    BuffType=unknown, BuffSize=unknown, MaxMultSect=0
    CurCHS=0/0/0, CurSects=0, LBA=yes, LBAsects=0
    IORDY=on/off, tPIO={min:120,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:120}
    PIO modes: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4
    DMA modes: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2
    UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 *udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 udma6
    AdvancedPM=no
    Drive conforms to: unknown: ATA/ATAPI-3,4,5,6,7

    * signifies the current active mode

    eben@cerberus:~$ vlc /dev/sr0
    VLC media player 3.0.21 Vetinari (revision 3.0.21-0-gdd8bfdbabe8) keydbcfg.c:701: No valid AACS configuration files found
    aacs.c:121: No usable AACS libraries found!
    dec.c:197: aacs_open() failed: -2!
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    keydbcfg.c:701: No valid AACS configuration files found
    aacs.c:121: No usable AACS libraries found!
    dec.c:197: aacs_open() failed: -2!
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar

    --
    Frankly, your argument wouldn't float were the sea composed of mercury.
    -- Biff

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  • From Arno Lehmann@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 16 18:50:01 2024
    Hi,

    Am 16.11.2024 um 18:36 schrieb Eben King:
    My wife bought a Blu-ray disk at a library sale, and now I need to
    transcode
    its contents and stick them on the media server so we can watch it.  So, I did the naïve thing and tried to read it using Handbrake 1.6.1.  It read titles 23 (5:00) and 25 (0:47).  Obviously something's not right.  DVDs work
    properly, but this is the first BD I've tried.  What do I need to add to make it work?  Thanks.

    Digital Restrictions Management is bad.

    I know of no real Open Source solution to that problem, but have very
    good results using MakeMKV under Windows. It should be possible to build
    that for Linux, but I never tried.

    Plan to spens ome time, and start at https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 if you like!

    Cheers,

    Arno

    --
    Arno Lehmann

    IT-Service Lehmann
    Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Arno Lehmann on Sat Nov 16 19:50:01 2024
    On 11/16/24 12:47, Arno Lehmann wrote:
    Hi,

    Am 16.11.2024 um 18:36 schrieb Eben King:
    My wife bought a Blu-ray disk at a library sale, and now I need to
    transcode its contents and stick them on the media server so we can
    watch it. So, I did the naïve thing and tried to read it using
    Handbrake 1.6.1. It read titles 23 (5:00) and 25 (0:47). Obviously
    something's not right. DVDs work properly, but this is the first BD
    I've tried. What do I need to add to make it work? Thanks.

    Digital Restrictions Management is bad.

    Aw heck I hate that stuff. Are there BDs that _don't_ use DRM and that I
    can read with OSS?

    Plan to spens ome time, and start at https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 if you like!

    Thanks.

    --
    Argon walks into a bar.
    The bartender says "We don't serve noble gasses here!"
    Argon doesn't react.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Timothy M Butterworth on Sat Nov 16 23:40:01 2024
    On 11/16/24 17:21, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
    On Sat, Nov 16, 2024 at 5:07 PM Arno Lehmann <[email protected]> wrote:

    Hi,

    Am 16.11.2024 um 18:36 schrieb Eben King:
    My wife bought a Blu-ray disk at a library sale, and now I need to
    transcode its contents and stick them on the media server so we can
    watch it. So, I did the naïve thing and tried to read it using
    Handbrake 1.6.1. It read titles 23 (5:00) and 25 (0:47). Obviously
    something's not right. DVDs work properly, but this is the first BD
    I've tried. What do I need to add to make it work? Thanks.


    Did you try playing the BD with VLC?

    Yes:

    eben@cerberus:~$ vlc /dev/sr0
    VLC media player 3.0.21 Vetinari (revision 3.0.21-0-gdd8bfdbabe8) keydbcfg.c:701: No valid AACS configuration files found
    aacs.c:121: No usable AACS libraries found!
    dec.c:197: aacs_open() failed: -2!
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    keydbcfg.c:701: No valid AACS configuration files found
    aacs.c:121: No usable AACS libraries found!
    dec.c:197: aacs_open() failed: -2!
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar
    bdj.c:614: libbluray-j2se-1.3.4.jar not found.
    bdj.c:801: BD-J check: Failed to load libbluray.jar

    You may have to install libbluray2 and gstreamer1.0-plugins-ugly.

    Both are apparently installed.

    --
    Unfortunately, our Bright Young PFY will no longer be assisting
    with expeditions downtown, as he has been dubbed the
    Telecom Destruction Bunny and banned from taking
    his aura anywhere near anything major. -- Anthony DeBoer on ASR

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Jean-Fran=C3=A7ois_Bachel@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 17 00:40:02 2024
    hello :)

    Le 16/11/2024 à 18:47, Arno Lehmann a écrit :
    Hi,

    Am 16.11.2024 um 18:36 schrieb Eben King:
    My wife bought a Blu-ray disk at a library sale, and now I need to
    transcode
    its contents and stick them on the media server so we can watch it.
    So, I
    did the naïve thing and tried to read it using Handbrake 1.6.1.  It read >> titles 23 (5:00) and 25 (0:47).  Obviously something's not right.
    DVDs work
    properly, but this is the first BD I've tried.  What do I need to add to
    make it work?  Thanks.

    Digital Restrictions Management is bad.
    sure !

    I know of no real Open Source solution to that problem, but have very
    good results using MakeMKV under Windows. It should be possible to build
    that for Linux, but I never tried.

    Plan to spens ome time, and start at https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/ viewforum.php?f=3 if you like!

    note that vlc on debian reads and play BlueRay disks just fine :) (just
    be sure sure that libluray is installed)

    you can rip it with vlc.

    Jeff

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 17 20:10:01 2024
    On 11/16/24 18:31, Jean-François Bachelet wrote:

    note that vlc on debian reads and play BlueRay disks just fine :) (just be sure sure that libluray is installed)

    I have libbluray-2. However it says "NB: Most commercial Blu-Ray are restricted by AACS or BD+ technologies and this library is not enough to playback those discs."

    libaacs0 is also installed, but it says "This package DOES NOT provide any
    key or certificate that could be used to decode encrypted copyrighted
    material. It is based on the official public AACS specification only."

    --
    You can't get a leopard to change his spots... You can explain it care-
    fully to the leopard, but it will just sit there lookng at you, knowing
    that you are made of meat. After a while it will perhaps kill you.
    Geoffrey Pullum, Language Log (2007-01-04)

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to eben on Tue Nov 19 11:30:01 2024
    Hi,

    On Sun Nov 17, 2024 at 7:05 PM GMT, eben wrote:
    --

    Just to point out that the mail signature separator is '-- ', i.e. with
    a suffixed ' ' character. Without it, Mail User Agent programs may not recognise your signature as such.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    [email protected]
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Tue Nov 19 16:10:02 2024
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 11/19/24 05:19, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    Hi,

    On Sun Nov 17, 2024 at 7:05 PM GMT, eben wrote:
    --

    Just to point out that the mail signature separator is '-- ', i.e. with
    a suffixed ' ' character. Without it, Mail User Agent programs may not recognise your signature as such.

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    --
    "God does not play dice" -- Einstein
    "Not only does God play dice, he sometimes throws
    them where they can't be seen." -- Stephen Hawking

    iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAF0AAAB1CAIAAACj7HrPAAAAA3NCSVQICAjb4U/gAAAB7UlE QVR4nO3cTU7DMBBA4RhxC+7B5Vj3ctyDc4QFUlU1L7aZTmqnet8KiRThxyTNT0VZ13XRxtvo X2BSdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZh74HX fF5+0n+Pg3x/fcRe6LwwuzC7MLswuzC7MLswuzC7MLswuzC7MLswuzC7MLswuzC7MLswuzC7 MLswuzC7sMhztTuVZ1f1J3DhFz6B88LswhL2o/DMD99ZKpwXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YX ZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXVvw/bch5YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhwef2pZS/L5qXV/1bTiU4 L9dFXpeNThplcT/aE+/SHJnzDsvivOx5qEvPUeaMw7KkfI4M1Y/Hzc2wZs+OmbXzProf1Uem voBKu86sxzlkXpqrut3grt31W6WMvPeccNzdG5meVW23meR4lP9+1D8sewk6TxoPldNlu5JJ /uxhnr+wtC63A3L2YVmmnZfhZSftMvz8ZdIuw71Ul8Qpe6kuiQZ0Cd+4eeb53uB52a4wdiFe vwoNyLw2+9fJbnMZez+kfq9nlvsMYeu6Vq6PKqtqXlWl8HNkzPcjZhdmF2YXZhdmF2YXZhdm F2YX9gsJjY4krWwfewAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

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  • From Eric S Fraga@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Tue Nov 19 16:30:01 2024
    Response below/inline for email [email protected] wrote:
    (original email sent 19 Nov 2024 at 10:02)

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    Your post/email comes through without the space after the two dashes.

    --
    Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 31.0.50 2024-08-16) on Debian 12.6

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Markus_Sch=C3=B6nhaber?=@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 19 16:30:02 2024
    19.11.24, 16:02 +0100 [email protected]:

    On 11/19/24 05:19, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    Hi,

    On Sun Nov 17, 2024 at 7:05 PM GMT, eben wrote:
    --

    Just to point out that the mail signature separator is '-- ', i.e. with
    a suffixed ' ' character. Without it, Mail User Agent programs may not
    recognise your signature as such.

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?
    No. This is how the separator line looks like in your message's (quoted printable) source:

    "=2D-"

    The "s added by me.

    --
    Regards
    mks

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to eben on Tue Nov 19 16:40:01 2024
    On Tue Nov 19, 2024 at 3:02 PM GMT, eben wrote:
    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    I'm afraid not. Looking at your message source, I see

    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    and
    =2D-

    So the sig separator is being content-encoded (which might be related)
    and the trailing space appears to have been stripped. You've also got format=flowed in the Content-Type. I love format=flowed! Perhaps your formatter is (incorrectly¹) stripping the trailing space as part of encoding for that?

    [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3676.txt § 4.3

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    [email protected]
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Brad Rogers on Wed Nov 20 01:50:01 2024
    On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
    [email protected] wrote:

    Hello [email protected],

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k
    attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    I see what Jonathan sees.

    Your sig separator arrives here as "--". If it leaves you as "-- ",
    which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's happening.

    I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its separator when sending to this list.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 06:40:01 2024
    On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 07:41:25PM -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
    [email protected] wrote:

    Hello [email protected],

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    I see what Jonathan sees.

    Your sig separator arrives here as "--". If it leaves you as "-- ",
    which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's happening.

    I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its separator when sending to this list.

    How do you add tyour sig? "By hand"? Note that Thunderbird seems to have a
    way to add the signature itself, and then it adds the separator (by default).

    Perhaps it is smarter, then?

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 16:20:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 00:29, [email protected] wrote:
    On Tue, Nov 19, 2024 at 07:41:25PM -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500
    [email protected] wrote:

    Hello [email protected],

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k
    attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    I see what Jonathan sees.

    Your sig separator arrives here as "--". If it leaves you as "-- ",
    which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
    happening.

    I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
    separator when sending to this list.

    How do you add tyour sig? "By hand"?

    No, under "Account Settings" in Tbird, gmx,"[x] Attach the signature from a file", and that points to ~/.signature. Then I have a script

    #! /bin/sh

    sigfile=~/.signature
    list="$HOME/signatures"

    while : ; do
    inotifywait -qq "$sigfile"
    fortune "$list" > "$sigfile"
    done

    that replaces the file with a new signature (without the separator) after
    every use. I guess Tbird supplies the separator. For example, right now ~/.signature contains

    --start--
    Here in the US, we are so schizoid and deeply opposed to government
    censorship that we insist on having unaccountable private parties
    to do it instead.
    -- Bill Cole
    --end--

    The script runs whenever I'm in X. Technically it should run whenever I'm logged in, but the discrepancy hasn't reared its ugly head yet.

    Note that Thunderbird seems to have a
    way to add the signature itself, and then it adds the separator (by default).

    It does. Unfortunately it attaches the same one every time, and you have to jump through hoops to get a randomized one. This was easier, but I don't understand why the separator (which I didn't choose) doesn't work.
    Something is stripping trailing spaces when it shouldn't, maybe the same
    thing that wraps other text.

    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 16:30:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing HTML
    email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing spaces
    being lost during that translation. Including the trailing space on
    the signature separator.

    Just to double-check,

    This line has two leading and two trailing spaces.

    This line has two trailing spaces only.

    This line has two leading spaces only.

    I'm composing a plain text message in mutt, so there shouldn't be any translation on my end. We'll see if the mailing list does any.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Wed Nov 20 17:30:02 2024
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    Dangit.

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing HTML
    email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing spaces
    being lost during that translation. Including the trailing space on
    the signature separator.

    Makes sense. Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing spaces
    stripped, or is it just me?

    Just to double-check,

    Your tests all worked. However, I looked at the the copy of the previous message I received, and all the tests (including the one with no trailing spaces) had one trailing whitespace character. So my attachment that showed
    a correct separator was invalid.

    I saved the email in question (Tbird only saves as *.eml, whatever that is)
    and the test lines all ended with CR LF, no spaces. Same deal in the copy
    in my "sent" folder. So the stripping is happening locally.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to David Wright on Wed Nov 20 17:40:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 10:49, David Wright wrote:
    On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
    On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:

    Your sig separator arrives here as "--". If it leaves you as "-- ",
    which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's
    happening.

    I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its
    separator when sending to this list.

    So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts.

    Not sure why you would assume that, but let's run with it. How would I configure Tbird do do such a thing? I see no relevant settings for "editor"
    or "path" but maybe they're hidden in the weeds.

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to David Wright on Wed Nov 20 18:00:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 09:49:58AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
    On Tue 19 Nov 2024 at 19:41:25 (-0500), eben@… wrote:
    On 11/19/24 10:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 10:02:59 -0500 eben@… wrote:

    That is what I see in the message to which you replied. See the <1k attachment. This message also has a space. Is that not what you see?

    I see what Jonathan sees.

    Your sig separator arrives here as "--". If it leaves you as "-- ", which it seems to be based on your attached image, I'm not sure what's happening.

    I guess until I find a smoking gun I'll just delete the signature and its separator when sending to this list.

    So, naturally you use an editor to compose your posts. Have you
    set it up to remove trailing spaces from files when it saves them?

    No, in another arm of this thread OP confirms that it's Thunderbird
    adding the separator and the sig (from a file). So either TB is messing
    up, or something on the way to us. I'd venture it's the first.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From The Wanderer@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 17:40:01 2024
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
    On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, [email protected] wrote:

    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
    HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
    spaces being lost during that translation. Including the trailing
    space on the signature separator.

    Makes sense. Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
    spaces stripped, or is it just me?

    I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
    using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
    the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
    impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have
    broken this.

    --
    The Wanderer

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
    persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
    progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw


    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to The Wanderer on Wed Nov 20 18:10:02 2024
    On 11/20/24 11:37, The Wanderer wrote:
    On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, [email protected] wrote:

    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
    HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
    spaces being lost during that translation. Including the trailing
    space on the signature separator.

    Makes sense. Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
    spaces stripped, or is it just me?

    I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
    using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
    the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
    impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have
    broken this.

    This is true. What version?

    BTW I received your separator as "--=20". But that's once saved as eml. Onscreen it looks fine, and the signature is greyed out. Anyone know how to get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Charles Curley@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 18:30:02 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 12:08:02 -0500
    [email protected] wrote:

    Anyone know how to
    get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

    Possibly storing one's emails in maildir format. Each email is its own
    raw text file. Suitable grepping or use of mairix or the like should
    then locate particular messages.

    --
    Does anybody read signatures any more?

    https://charlescurley.com
    https://charlescurley.com/blog/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 19:00:01 2024
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 12:08:02PM -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 11:37, The Wanderer wrote:
    On 2024-11-20 at 11:24, [email protected] wrote:

    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Thunderbird is composing
    HTML email, and then translating it to plain text, with trailing
    spaces being lost during that translation. Including the trailing space on the signature separator.

    Makes sense. Does anyone using Thunderbird _not_ get trailing
    spaces stripped, or is it just me?

    I don't (see signature below), but it may be worth noting that I am
    using an *ancient* version of Thunderbird, because of UI/UX changes in
    the meanwhile which I'm not willing to tolerate. It's far from
    impossible that changes in more recent Thunderbird versions might have broken this.

    This is true. What version?

    BTW I received your separator as "--=20". But that's once saved as eml.

    This is quoted-printable. Most probably the way the mail was transported.

    I guess it's the "rawest" it gets.

    Cheers
    --
    t
    Onscreen it looks fine, and the signature is greyed out. Anyone know how to get a pure text version, if such a thing exists?

    Reality is... complicated. Very [1] much so.

    Cheers
    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME
    --
    t

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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Nov 20 21:20:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 11:24, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    Dangit.

    What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
    needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW,
    on a line by itself.

    [...]

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Wed Nov 20 21:40:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 11:24, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    Dangit.

    What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
    needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW,
    on a line by itself.

    [...]

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain
    text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in
    the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but
    not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is
    supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Crawley@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Thu Nov 21 05:50:01 2024
    On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:
    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a reply you make that quotes my
    msg for context. Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

    My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is shown greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your post (like this).

    Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to another account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.

    So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between Thunderbirds.

    --
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to John Crawley on Thu Nov 21 07:20:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 23:46, John Crawley wrote:
    On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:
    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain
    text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in
    the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but
    not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is
    supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

    My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is shown greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your post (like this).

    Which is how it should be.

    Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to
    another account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.

    So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between Thunderbirds.

    That (sigh) was my point. That doesn't affect the dozens of
    miss-configured email agents here that violate those SOP's for text
    emails. <y list of groups I sort email into is about 2 screens tall but
    tirds filters for debian-user still miss-sorts them, a lot. Some sent to debian-user, some send to the full fqdn, And it still leaves about 10-20
    an hour in the inbox or in junk with a perfectly good address. Which
    filter rule is miss-firing is a puzzle w/o enough clues to solve.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Thu Nov 21 07:20:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 01:10, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 23:46, John Crawley wrote:
    On 21/11/2024 05:31, gene heskett wrote:
    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is
    plain text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed
    out in the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it
    incoming but not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context.
    Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again
    and again.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

    My TB is behaving exactly like yours in this respect. Your sig is
    shown greyed-out and is automatically removed when I reply to your
    post (like this).

    Which is how it should be.

    Meanwhile my sig is correctly added and (I've just checked) sent to
    another account's inbox with the trailing space after -- intact.

    And that one above did nothing because it was mid-line, w/o the /r-- /r
    that triggers all this. It will be interesting how the above is treated
    when echo back from the server, which was the other half of my point. ;o)

    So nothing here to blame on TB, at least for mail being sent between
    Thunderbirds.

    That (sigh) was my point. That doesn't affect the dozens of miss-
    configured email agents here that violate those SOP's for text emails.
    <y list of groups I sort email into is about 2 screens tall but tirds
    filters for debian-user still miss-sorts them, a lot. Some sent to debian-user, some send to the full fqdn, And it still leaves about 10-20
    an hour in the inbox or in junk with a perfectly good address. Which
    filter rule is miss-firing is a puzzle w/o enough clues to solve.

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Crawley@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Thu Nov 21 11:10:01 2024
    On 21/11/2024 15:10, gene heskett wrote:
    That doesn't affect the dozens of miss-configured email agents here that violate those SOP's for text emails. <y list of groups I sort email into is about 2 screens tall but tirds filters for debian-user still miss-sorts them, a lot. Some sent to
    debian-user, some send to the full fqdn, And it still leaves about 10-20 an hour in the inbox or in junk with a perfectly good address. Which filter rule is miss-firing is a puzzle w/o enough clues to solve.


    My mail filter for debian-user seems to be working OK, everything sent to the right place. Maybe it's because I have fewer filters than you (31 in the Local Folders section) or could it be because I consolidate all accounts into Local Folders, but FWIW
    the filter is:

    Match all the following
    List-Id is <debian-user.lists.debian.org>

    Perform these actions
    Move Message to Deb user on Local Folders

    ---
    I still haven't figured out the difference between setting filters on Local Folders vs for individual mail accounts though.

    --
    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Thu Nov 21 16:10:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 11:24, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    Dangit.

    What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
    needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, on
    a line by itself.

    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text, as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the
    incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20". Why the difference?

    Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
    What could we be doing differently?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 21 16:20:01 2024
    On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 10:00:11AM -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 11:24, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing spaces.

    Dangit.

    What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- " needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space, IOW, on a line by itself.

    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain text,
    as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not in a reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20". Why the difference?

    Look at the MIME structure of the message. The one might have a transfer encoding of "8bit" or similar, the other probably "quoted-printable".
    a transfer encoding "text/plain", the other is most probably "quoted-printable".

    ISTR I already tipped you off in this direction. Look up MIME in
    Wikipedia, it's really worth it!

    Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
    What could we be doing differently?

    No idea about TBird's inner life.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 21 17:10:01 2024
    On 11/20/24 10:13, [email protected] wrote:

    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false. Now to see if it
    makes a difference:

    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 21 17:50:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 11:07, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:13, [email protected] wrote:

    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it makes a difference:

    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    Now I changed "mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed" from true to false.

    This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end with a space. It is wrapped on my end.

    This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 21 17:20:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 11:07, [email protected] wrote:

    OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it makes a difference:

    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    Narrator: It did not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Thu Nov 21 20:40:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 11:46, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/21/24 11:07, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:13, [email protected] wrote:

    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    OK, I changed "mail.html_compose" from true to false.  Now to see if it
    makes a difference:

    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    Now I changed "mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed" from true to false.

    This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end with a space. It is wrapped on my end.

    This is a long line that is more than seventy-two characters that should end with two spaces. It is also wrapped on my end.

    I posted https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbird/comments/1gwn43t/trailing_spaces_get_removed/
    for help with this problem.

    --
    A well-lovd and corrctly traind domstc cnine is gnrlly slobbry, excitbl,
    noisy, scatologically obsessed, xenophobic, pathetically unjudgmental, embrrssngly uninhbtd, unreasnngly dvtd, hrtbrkngly dpndnt and wretchedly craven. All othr knds of dog cmpre unfvrbly wth ths picture. - PB, AFCA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to gene heskett on Fri Nov 22 01:10:02 2024
    On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 18:32:38 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
    The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where.

    No, =20 is "quoted printable" encoding. It's extremely common for
    email; it can be used whenever the source content is HTML or plain text
    or a calendar invitation or any other textual material which might
    not fit within the 7-bit ASCII encoding.

    If the message were HTML encoded, you would have seen %20, not =20.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Nov 22 00:40:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 10:00, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 15:31, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 15:16, gene heskett wrote:
    On 11/20/24 11:24, [email protected] wrote:
    On 11/20/24 10:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2024 at 10:13:20 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
    Just for kicks:
    This line has no trailing spaces.
    This line has one trailing space.
    This line has two trailing spaces.

    In the message I received, none of these lines have any trailing
    spaces.

    Dangit.

    What folks don't seem to get, is that the character preceding the "-- "
    needs to be a line feed, as does the character /after/ the space,
    IOW, on
    a line by itself.

    Which is what I am sending from latest t-bird in what I think is plain
    text,
    as below, and it works, my too long comment is not greyed out in the
    incoming echo from the listserver. You should see it incoming but not
    in a
    reply you make that quotes my msg for context. Your agent is supposed to
    throw it away, not retransmitting it again and again.

    Your sig separator arrived as "-- " not "--=20".  Why the difference?

    The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where.
    Might be your settings, might be the mail server you are using. IDK and
    haven't a clue.

    Also, yours works and mine doesn't, and we're both using a recent Tbird.
    What could we be doing differently?

    .


    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gene heskett@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Fri Nov 22 07:10:01 2024
    On 11/21/24 19:01, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 18:32:38 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
    The =20 tells me its been converted to html style encoding some where.

    No, =20 is "quoted printable" encoding. It's extremely common for
    email; it can be used whenever the source content is HTML or plain text
    or a calendar invitation or any other textual material which might
    not fit within the 7-bit ASCII encoding.

    If the message were HTML encoded, you would have seen %20, not =20.

    .
    And I learn something Greg, thanks. Now all I have to do is remember it,

    Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
    soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
    If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
    - Louis D. Brandeis

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to David Wright on Mon Nov 25 22:10:01 2024
    Hi,

    On Thu Nov 21, 2024 at 6:30 AM GMT, David Wright wrote:
    But can I ask you why you stopped using f=f when you changed address.

    It wasn't a change of address, but a change of MUA or MUA config. I
    certainly had it enabled at some point with mutt, and I changed the
    way I used mutt (from mostly writing mail on the same machine as my
    MTA, to mostly writing it on my end-user machine). I don't know if
    I stopped using it at that point, but in either case, I'm currently
    using a different MUA (aerc) and I haven't yet investigated whether
    it does f=f.

    Was it because you're now using quoted-printable for some reason,
    rather than 8bit.

    And perhaps I ought not to ask why the paragraph above is right-justified.

    I was playing around with vim's bundled macros/justify.vim.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    [email protected]
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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