This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024, brian mckee wrote:

I have a work station.��
If I put debian on it.
I want it to have 5 monsters.

I'm guessing 5 "monitors".

5 key boards.
5 mice.
So 5 people can long in. At same time.

I'm guessing "login". It's sometimes called Multi Seat.

What Verizon should I download�

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Roger

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 13:33:08 +0100, Roger Price wrote:

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Oh. I've learned something today.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/11/24 20:33, Roger Price wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024, brian mckee wrote:

I have a work station.
If I put debian on it.
I want it to have 5 monsters.

I'm guessing 5 "monitors".

5 key boards.
5 mice.
So 5 people can long in. At same time.

I'm guessing "login".  It's sometimes called Multi Seat.

With the "5 monsters", each having a separate keyboard and mouse, I
wonder whether the "monsters" means users...

It appears that the "workstation is to be set up as a server, with dumb terminals, like UNIX from about 30 years ago (I remember when, in Perth, Western Australia, the Compaq shop was selling a Compaq 386 computer
with UNIX, to serve up to 32 users), and that, if this is the case, the workstation would need to have 5 video sockets and 10 USB sockets to
serve the keyboards and meeces ("I hate meeces to pieces" :) ), or, if
the monitors can be served from USB sockets, 15 USB sockets.

Whilst this computer that I am using, has about ten USB sockets
(including four on the front), I expect that a similar workstation to
this, would be required, or, a proper server, with all of the required
sockets, both options being, I believe, quite expensive to buy new.

So, I believe that it would be less expensive, to buy five separate
computers, probably low-end "laptop" computers, upon which Debian can be installed, and, install Debian on each of them.

Or, computers with Debian preinstalled...

https://laptopwithlinux.com/laptops-with-debian-linux-preinstalled/

https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024, Bret Busby wrote:

..., the workstation would need to have 5 video sockets and 10 USB sockets to serve the keyboards and meeces, or, if the monitors can be served from USB sockets, 15 USB sockets.

.. I expect that a similar workstation to this, would be required, or, a proper server, with all of the required sockets, both options being, I believe, quite expensive to buy new.

Would a powered USB hub be of any use? A lot cheaper. Roger

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11 Nov 2024 06:51 -0600, from [email protected] (Nicholas Geovanis):

In principle it should be possible with any X-Windows system. But I don't know if xfree86 itself can do that, it might require the X display manager and full X-Windows.

Pretty sure Debian hasn't used XFree86 in a very long time. Certainly
Bookworm is Xorg if not Wayland.

--
Michael Kjörling
🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11 Nov 2024 21:24 +0800, from [email protected] (Bret Busby):

Whilst this computer that I am using, has about ten USB sockets (including four on the front), I expect that a similar workstation to this, would be required, or, a proper server, with all of the required sockets, both
options being, I believe, quite expensive to buy new.

There are offboard USB controllers (not even all that expensive), to
say nothing of hubs; so at least that part is manageable, especially
for low-bandwidth devices like keyboards or mice.

Probably a bigger problem would be the physical environment those
people would be sitting in if you want to stay within the length limit
of USB cables. For example, Wikipedia claims that USB 3 (which you'll
almost certainly want if you're running video over USB) in practice
tops out at somewhere around 3 m due to electrical properties; and
even USB 1.1 and 2.0 are only specified for up to 5 m. Apparently USB
gateways are a thing to extend this. In contrast, HDMI apparently is
usable at up to about 13 m.

--
Michael Kjörling
🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/11/24 22:00, Michael Kjörling wrote:

On 11 Nov 2024 21:24 +0800, from [email protected] (Bret Busby):

Whilst this computer that I am using, has about ten USB sockets (including >> four on the front), I expect that a similar workstation to this, would be
required, or, a proper server, with all of the required sockets, both
options being, I believe, quite expensive to buy new.

There are offboard USB controllers (not even all that expensive), to
say nothing of hubs; so at least that part is manageable, especially
for low-bandwidth devices like keyboards or mice.

My personal experience of USB hubs, is unreliability - sometimes they
work, and, sometimes they do not - probably about 50% chance of them
working.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bret Busby wrote:

With the "5 monsters", each having a separate keyboard and mouse, I wonder whether the "monsters" means users...

UNIX, to serve up to 32 users), and that, if this is the case, the workstation would need to have 5 video sockets and 10 USB sockets to serve the keyboards and meeces ("I hate meeces to pieces" :) ), or, if the
monitors can be served from USB sockets, 15 USB sockets.

Whilst this computer that I am using, has about ten USB sockets (including four on the front), I expect that a similar workstation to this, would be required, or, a proper server, with all of the required sockets, both
options being, I believe, quite expensive to buy new.

Video cards with 6 monitor outputs are available for reasonable
prices.

Keyboards and mice are low-speed devices, so USB hubs would be
practical.

So, I believe that it would be less expensive, to buy five separate computers, probably low-end "laptop" computers, upon which Debian can be installed, and, install Debian on each of them.

Often, that is the case. And they can be used to run
applications on a shared server, though not all of them.

But, this is a plausibly supportable configuration, so perhaps
they have a good use case.

-dsr-

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Greg Wooledge <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 13:33:08 +0100, Roger Price wrote:

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you
read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Oh. I've learned something today.

I looked at that page and what I immediately learned is that it seems
to have been written by a presumably young person who has forgotten or
never knew the meaning of multi-user.

Multiseat is one particular form of multiuser computer. There are
lots of other forms. A computer where one person at a time uses it is
called a single user computer. It is not a multi user computer.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Michael Kjörling <[email protected]> wrote:

On 11 Nov 2024 21:24 +0800, from [email protected] (Bret Busby):

Whilst this computer that I am using, has about ten USB sockets
(including four on the front), I expect that a similar workstation
to this, would be required, or, a proper server, with all of the
required sockets, both options being, I believe, quite expensive to
buy new.

There are offboard USB controllers (not even all that expensive), to
say nothing of hubs; so at least that part is manageable, especially
for low-bandwidth devices like keyboards or mice.

Probably a bigger problem would be the physical environment those
people would be sitting in if you want to stay within the length limit
of USB cables. For example, Wikipedia claims that USB 3 (which you'll
almost certainly want if you're running video over USB) in practice
tops out at somewhere around 3 m due to electrical properties; and
even USB 1.1 and 2.0 are only specified for up to 5 m. Apparently USB gateways are a thing to extend this. In contrast, HDMI apparently is
usable at up to about 13 m.

Displayport also supposedly works up to 15 m, I believe. But video
cards with Displayport or HDMI outputs are available, so that shouldn't
be a problem.

FWIW, I've run X windows across the Atlantic, so there shouldn't really
be a limit.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 13:33:08 +0100 (CET)
Roger Price <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024, brian mckee wrote:

I have a work station.  
If I put debian on it.
I want it to have 5 monsters.

I'm guessing 5 "monitors".

5 key boards.
5 mice.
So 5 people can long in. At same time.

I'm guessing "login". It's sometimes called Multi Seat.

What Verizon should I download 

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you
read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Have I missed it or has nobody yet asked what these five users will do?

Just Email? Video editing? Something in between?

If it's seriously heavy work, the 'workstation' needs to be a fairly
powerful server, such as might run half a dozen Windows VMs, with lots
of RAM and disc. If it's fairly lightweight to moderate, I'd use
separate Raspberry Pis or similar. The beefier Pis will run a desktop
fairly comfortably, for moderate office work. If this is about
multi-user gaming, then the OP needs advice from people who do this kind
of thing.

--
Joe

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Nov 11, 2024, [email protected] wrote:

Greg Wooledge <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 13:33:08 +0100, Roger Price wrote:

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you
read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Oh. I've learned something today.

I looked at that page and what I immediately learned is that it seems
to have been written by a presumably young person who has forgotten or
never knew the meaning of multi-user.

Multiseat is one particular form of multiuser computer. There are
lots of other forms. A computer where one person at a time uses it is
called a single user computer. It is not a multi user computer.

I read the article as not really counting a shared computer with
multiple discrete users as quite "multi-user" beyond a nod of the head
towards "yes, yes, I know multiple users are sharing one PC..."

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE3asj+xn6fYUcweBnbWVw5UznKGAFAmcyc5QACgkQbWVw5Uzn KGCZUw//W1kYz+Jpr7d4TE1thnaHwsGErsRMiTJd7RtF9U6RZc2eGscLLPeGkyS1 6c0exj04d4RbF2h13bKED7bX/4H4xH76zm9uDIOG6/j3tnxH+bBoIgUsqg2cQCgD AYXp6Fam1nOFDPARD3CxZiZNId5Qo5PqNg3IhCjvkQ/NF6DyJPU/c83ZC0RszJOF 2nykK9IzVXuFJC9vxmWqtx4ztwMW+7w+J7uruusqpnS3+h3KHbvNDHxILsG1+rRr t76HsmLMnjcjPlGigY5j//6cKbVClPDHy38W9wVUoDL0XUVzDvYSj1GZ34DpJMdW qUGMMRi/V1+2V3BO4vyo1+qsZd71CXI4fvbKz9BzPQCoCEptKZ3W/K7n1lqxoUqW vgNS+LbIPcM9iMiHMr5jRmHYM/AqMpgL12jdUUWiGA4ohLEDvEm4UBxiXMcu9V3z bNzlhQoFJwT13Dkp/0W8kOJCpNIa/h4fLIswXgFJgspws3AU6yuinQ1sQsiCOhsA wcpJ99U+oxs+lX7rFy7vTiAmp4LUK9UX2/PKbeAg1gfRcb76pKWMDMZrBJgYYA7F gLpkg+V+T0yPXPJYK0foPt3vdEhjzW1uVRZ4HvgrN8zMPFyJU1qbP3w4oDAPQazN S/FbwrDhuFbiU3kBhjz9EBKtnW8fSIaHl57n0UGkFs7P82a14EE=
=ce8E
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Us

On 11/11/24 16:14, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Nov 11, 2024, [email protected] wrote:

Greg Wooledge <[email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 13:33:08 +0100, Roger Price wrote:

I'm guessing "version". How about Debian 12 (bookworm). Have you
read https://wiki.debian.org/Multi_Seat_Debian_HOWTO ?

Oh. I've learned something today.

I looked at that page and what I immediately learned is that it seems
to have been written by a presumably young person who has forgotten or
never knew the meaning of multi-user.

Or another possibility, Dan. Where he/she went to school, the profs were windows people. Quality of education. I don't have that limitation, the
only windows machine I ever had was an early xp hp lappy cuz I needed a
lappy and couldn't buy it anyway but with xp on it. It had Mndrake on it
a week later. I came to computing by way of os9 level one on a 64k color computer, mulltitasking, and multiuser from the gitgo. "Can't" is not in
my vocabulary. That is probably why I "paint myself into a corner" so often.

Multiseat is one particular form of multiuser computer. There are
lots of other forms. A computer where one person at a time uses it is
called a single user computer. It is not a multi user computer.

I read the article as not really counting a shared computer with
multiple discrete users as quite "multi-user" beyond a nod of the head towards "yes, yes, I know multiple users are sharing one PC..."

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 04:13:59PM -0500, Dan Purgert wrote:

On Nov 11, 2024, [email protected] wrote:

[...]

Multiseat is one particular form of multiuser computer. There are
lots of other forms. A computer where one person at a time uses it is called a single user computer. It is not a multi user computer.

I read the article as not really counting a shared computer with
multiple discrete users as quite "multi-user" beyond a nod of the head towards "yes, yes, I know multiple users are sharing one PC..."

I think the riddle over "multiseat" are desktop environments in Linux.

Whereas Unix computers have been inherently multiuser from the get-go,
when "big" DEs started in Linux, programmers started forgetting that;
what constituted a "session" who had "the graphics card" (why can't you
have two? why can't one serve two people)?.

With multi-seat (ISTR the term originated at Redhat), people started
to re-invent what a "user session" means. In a confusingly and quite irritatingly new manner, mind you. So you now (yay!) can have two Gnome sessions. But you pay the price that a Gnome session is quite a different
beast from an X session, with an own DBUS thingy, an own Systemd
thingy, yadda, yadda (same goes for KDE).

Makes things far more obscure and less hackable.

That's what we get when we mix branding, huge egos and commercial interests with free software. A monster (or a collection thereof ;-)

Cheers
--
t

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iF0EABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCZzLptAAKCRAFyCz1etHa Rlz1AJ9BUC24WYVxFlnhAh57SQmjXnzIHwCggNfTDYRZK5I+1/jRhMjPnPxZAOA=
=tVqp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

With multi-seat (ISTR the term originated at Redhat), people started
to re-invent what a "user session" means. In a confusingly and quite irritatingly new manner, mind you. So you now (yay!) can have two Gnome sessions. But you pay the price that a Gnome session is quite a different beast from an X session, with an own DBUS thingy, an own Systemd
thingy, yadda, yadda (same goes for KDE).

AFAIK this is orthogonal to multi-seat, e.g. the above issues already
arise with multiple concurrent logins on a single-seat setup, via virtual-consoles.

Multi-seat issues have to do with the fact that monitors, keyboards,
mouses, etc... are connected "separately", so from a hardware point of
view there's no way for the machine to know which set of devices should
be used together and which set corresponds to a "new seat".
At least, not without extra manual configuration.

Contrast this to the old TTY days where all the devices connected to
a "seat" (monitor, keyboard, occasionally mouse, even sometimes
printers) where physically connected together via a single serial port.

[ Plus the fact that multiple monitors can be connected to the same
graphics card, but if you want to use them in a "multi-seat" setup,
they each want to run a separate Xorg server yet those servers need
to share the graphics card, as you mentioned. ]


Stefan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)