(WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?)
The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
it.
Paul
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
it.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called.
On Mon, 27 May 2024 17:09:02 -0400 > Paul M Foster wrote:
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
Cost
Lack of understanding (in the building trade)
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called.
I think it's called a "wireless bridge".
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
it.
On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate it.
I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the problem.
Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's assume that I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. Let's say I have
three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way or another) to my router/modem.
It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a
mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates
via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device via ethernet cable.
How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
--
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster
On Tuesday, 28-05-2024 at 12:05 Paul M Foster wrote:
On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 05:09:02PM -0400, Paul M Foster wrote:
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My
idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via
cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can
anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate it.
I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the problem.
Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's assume that I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage. Let's say I have three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way or another) to my router/modem.
It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device via ethernet cable.
How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
Paul,
My sister's house has a raked roof (i.e. no cavity), and sits on a
concrete slab. Without removing sheets of iron from the roof there was no simple answer for running a Ethernet cable.
One suggestion given to us was to run Ethernet cable in conduit on the outside of house. Not an elegant solution.
How many rooms you want to have computers in? The more rooms you have
could increase complexity of your solution.
What we ended up using was Mesh system. As a proof of concept I used two FRITZ!Box 7490 as I own two of these devices, and very much like them.
One FRITZ!Box 7490 was used as the router/modem, the other as the
repeater (this modem has dual features). This worked quite well.
Fortunately my sister does not play first person shooter games as I
believe Mesh systems slightly increase network latency. https://avm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Global/Produkte/FRITZBox/7490/Special_en/7490_special_en.html
We found that walls are too good at soaking up Wifi signals. The
distances between modems and computers was the main challenge.
If you had the money, I would get a cable installer to do a proper job of running cables. I used to be an Electrician, hence I am familiar with
running wires, so in my own home I ran Ethernet cable where ever needed
(and we have a cavity ceiling). I am guessing this option is not possible
for your situation.
On 28/05/2024 10:05 am, Paul M Foster wrote:
It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one is a mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room connect to the device via ethernet cable.
How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand recommendations?
I think you will likely be disappointed by that plan. Mesh networks and WiFi extenders don't usually work well, especially WiFi extenders.
A better plan is to install a POE switch at your router location and run cat 5 cable into the ceiling to 3 or 4 locations and put in a POE powered wifi access point in the ceiling at each point.
TP-Link sell a range of prosumer and business access points that would help. You can also use the POE switch but put in a POE extractor to power a non
POE access point.
Personally I use TP-Link components and they seem reliable enough if lacking a bit in features you can use
From what I've read, TP-Link gets good reviews.
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The local
internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless signal from the
router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand names? I'd appreciate
it.
Paul
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not
wired for internet (WHY aren't new houses wired with Cat5/6/7?). The
local internet provider will likely provide a wireless router, as
they all do. My idea is to put a device which receives wireless
signal from the router/modem, and has an RJ45 jack in it in each
room. So each room would have one of these, and the devices in it
would be hooked to that device via cat 5e. I hope that's clear.
I'd like to shop for such a device, but I don't know what it's
called. Can anyone provide advice, and possibly preferred brand
names? I'd appreciate it.
I did some more research, and it looks like I must have misstated the problem.
Let's assume I can't get in the attic and wire the place. Let's
assume that I've got a wireless router/modem in, say, the garage.
Let's say I have three rooms with devices I want to connect (one way
or another) to my router/modem.
It appears there are two solutions. One is wifi extenders, and one
is a mesh network. In both cases, the device sits in the room and communicates via wifi to the modem/router. The devices in the room
connect to the device via ethernet cable.
How does that sound? Any dissenting opinions? Any brand
recommendations?
Coincidentally, I used to be an electrician too, but we almost never
ran low voltage except for doorbells.
The house in question appears to have a generous attic, but they've
blown in two feet of insulation I'd rather not disturb. And that
much insulation makes the headers of walls very hard to find. Also,
I'm not in my 20s anymore, and crawling around in attics is
difficult.
In the house I'm living in now, I did go into the attic years ago
with cat 5e and wired up the living room.
FWIW, in the house we're buying, I need internet (wired) in the
living room, bedroom 2 and bedroom 4. Also, it's concrete block
construction (outer walls).
Well, if I'm gonna run cat 5, I might as well just put a jack in each
room.> No POE needed. The only reason for wifi at all in this case is
so I don't *have* to run cat 5.
From what I've read, TP-Link gets good reviews.
... and has an RJ45 jack in it in each room. So each room would
have one of these, and the devices in it would be hooked to that device via cat 5e.
On Mon, 27 May 2024 18:19:10 -0500
David Wright <[email protected]> wrote:
We didn't meet any lack of understanding. Rather, the problem is which >rooms do you connect, and precisely where do you place the wallplates.
That's what I meant, really. Christ, they can't even place power
outlets sensibly in many instances. :-(
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I misunderstand it.
When you say your provider wants to provide you a "wireless router",
are you implying that you do not have any physically wired
high-speed internet to this property. As in, the old copper either isn't good enough for decent internet and no fibre yet, no cable modem either?
I read your original post thinking you might be thinking of
"extending" the reach of the "wifi" (which is probably isn't, it's
probably 4G or 5G in this case) to your rooms. That's not what you
do, you don't extend that signal.
Some providers can provide now a box which has a SIM card in it and
talks to the provider over 4G/5G cellular. On the inside of the
house, they provide a wifi access, just like most other providers.
Also, most of these routers have an ethernet port on the back so you
can, if you like, plug in an ethernet switch or another wifi router
(netgear or TPlink or whatever).
To be clear, the wifi is the part that is at your property. There are
some providers termed WISPs (wireless internet service providers) that
use wifi (not 4G/5G) to connect you to the internet. Just being clear
here that even if they do this, we're not talking about extending that
wifi signal. That signal (whether it's really wifi or 4G or 5G or
even adsl or fibre or cable), it gets terminated at or just before
your router in your house. So I'm not talking about that side of your connection at all.
So if I understand properly, you have some devices around your home
that don't have built-in wifi and you are not going to string ethernet
to them.
In this case, what I would do would be to consider some ethernet-over-powerline (e.g. https://www.tp-link.com/us/powerline/).
In this case, you'd plug the ethernet on the provided router, and then
you would put one (or more) of these devices around the house in the
other rooms and they basically function as an ethernet switch.
Another solution is a wifi device that functions in "client mode" and
gives you an ethernet port. Essentially a device that functions as a
wifi router in reverse in that the wifi part (WAN) connects to your in
home wifi network and you plug devices into it on the ethernet ports
(LAN ports). Some wifi routers can be configured this way, especially
older ones. I have used the older ubiquiti eqiupment like this a lot.
The newer ubiquiti stuff though looks to be more geared towards
offices and hotels, probably way overkill for what you need. However,
I did find a TP-link product, the "TP-Link AC750 Dual Band Wi-Fi
Travel Router" which seems to do this out of the box along with many
other tricks. There are many other products out there. Many of these devices can also act as wifi repeaters or extenders too.
There are some other technical considerations like whether you care if
NAT is running on this little box or not, but for something like a
television in another room, you probably don't have to care. NAT
isn't a consideration with the ethernet over power, they thankfully
don't do that.
Me personally, like others on this list, I'd try to find a way to get
an ethernet cable to the other rooms, but in some cases, this just
isn't practical. I have an ethernet cable up the wall outside my
house and over the top of the roof, not in a conduit! Been like that
for more than a decade. But it rarely freezes here. Your mileage/kilometerage may vary!
Michael Grant
We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not
all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.
Hi,
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:31:29AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I >> misunderstand it.
It works extremely poorly, if at all. If wifi works you would prefer
wifi.
Paul M Foster wrote:
We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic, but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
Concrete blocks wifi very effectively. Are any of your internal,
load-bearing walls concrete?
To the contrary, I *do* plan to string cat 5/6 to those devices, just not all the way to the modem/router, which will likely be in the garage.
The devices wired together in a single room will do well. They
will have issues talking across rooms, as every round-trip will
feature four wifi hops (room router to gateway, gateway to room
router, and then back again).
You're spending the money on a house, which is $LARGESUM. Spend
the comparatively small amount of extra money on some form of
wiring before you move in, so you don't end up frustrated for
two years before doing it anyway and also having to move
furniture, listen to concrete drilling, and so forth.
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <[email protected]> wrote:
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it >> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
directly connected to the source router, I should think.
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 08:15:36AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
You're spending the money on a house, which is $LARGESUM. Spend
the comparatively small amount of extra money on some form of
wiring before you move in, so you don't end up frustrated for
two years before doing it anyway and also having to move
furniture, listen to concrete drilling, and so forth.
I wonder if I can get an electrical company to put in cat 5? Might be worth it. The prospect of getting up in the attic and running cat 5 myself just doesn't appeal to me.
On Tue, 28 May 2024 11:31:29 +0100
"mick.crane" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello mick.crane,
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or
did I misunderstand it.
Yes, there is. I believe you're thinking of powerline adaptors. They
do require everything be on the same circuit, however.
The way electrical wiring is done in the UK often means separate
floors are on different circuits, and in larger properties, each
floor might be on two (or more) circuits, making it difficult, at
best, to get the whole building networked this way. And that's
assuming ring circuits, if everything is on a radial, you're stymied.
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
phase.
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, [email protected]
wrote:
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
the same phase.
In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet. It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a different part of the house. I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not. I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs. The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe! I'd be interested to know!
Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
ground.
Brad Rogers <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2024 11:31:29 +0100 "mick.crane" wrote:
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or
did I misunderstand it.
Yes, there is. I believe you're thinking of powerline adaptors. They
do require everything be on the same circuit, however.
I have a powerline adapter (Devolo units). There's no such restriction,
as far as I know. My powerline transmitter and receiver are certainly
on different circuits.
The way electrical wiring is done in the UK often means separate
floors are on different circuits, and in larger properties, each
floor might be on two (or more) circuits, making it difficult, at
best, to get the whole building networked this way. And that's
assuming ring circuits, if everything is on a radial, you're stymied.
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same
phase.
We're moving across the state, and from what I've seen, providers there
will do something similar-- provide a router and/or modem which has wired
and wireless capabilities. However, because the house is not prewired for internet, we must solve the problem of getting internet to the computers
and devices in the house. I'm not a fan of wifi, versus hard-wired
internet. It's not as reliable, and it's slower. Thus, I want cat 5/6 to my devices. I could possibly wire the house with cat 5/6 through the attic,
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up
the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, [email protected] wrote:
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just fine.
If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to spread the signal
better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then you
may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on the same phase.
In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet. It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a different part of the house. I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not. I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs. The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe! I'd be interested to know!
Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
ground.
Michael Grant <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, [email protected]
wrote:
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
the same phase.
In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet. It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a different part of the house. I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not. I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs. The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe! I'd be interested to know!
Similarrly, over 3-phase, I would suspect the same is true, 3
different legs around the property with a common neutral and common
ground.
Yes, I was talking specifically about the UK in response to Brad, who
you elided. Powerline works between 'live' and 'neutral'. Earth is
strictly a safety earth, not involved in any circuitry. The distribution
of phases in a 3-phase installation varies quite a lot depending on the peculiarities of the particular site. The main concern is to make it impossible to easily mix phases (i.e. don't have sockets on one phase
near sockets on another phase). I gather the rules are somewhat
different in the US with split phase systems.
On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <[email protected]> wrote:
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
directly connected to the source router, I should think.
I was under the impression that 3-phase to a private residence
contravenes building regulations, as that would make 440V available
for you to electrocute yourself.
I can't help thinking that you can "plant a device" on each computer
that doesn't have wifi by buying dongles. That is, unless you have
more than one computer in a room and they must be wire-interconnected.
I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 03:13:26PM -0000, Curt wrote:
On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <[email protected]> wrote:
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it >>> seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up >>> the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
directly connected to the source router, I should think.
I don't know that it would be more *reliable*, but I have a number of
devices which don't have wifi capability, like my desktop computer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul M Foster" <[email protected]>
I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
The answers were distributed between "impossible"
and "prohibitively expensive".
On Tuesday 28 May 2024 01:49:52 pm Paul M Foster wrote:entrance. Running 3-phase power requires *three* transformers up on the pole, much more in the way of expense if you want that for some reason, and I don't know of anybody that does that. Even those who are into having some nontrivial machinery
I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
though.
Residential installations (talking in the US here) typically involve *one* transformer tapping a single phase out of the three that are up there on the pole. The secondary is center-tapped, and it's that point which is grounded at the service
I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul M Foster" <[email protected]>
I've never see a 3 phase in a house.
Quite some years ago my father inquired about getting
3 phase power to his house to power a rather husky lathe.
The answers were distributed between "impossible"
and "prohibitively expensive".
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live in the hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The overhead line
to my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I lost
equipment.
On 5/28/24 15:29, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
On Tuesday 28 May 2024 01:49:52 pm Paul M Foster wrote:
I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,Residential installations (talking in the US here) typically involve
though.
*one* transformer tapping a single phase out of the three that are up
there on the pole. The secondary is center-tapped, and it's that
point which is grounded at the service entrance. Running 3-phase
power requires *three* transformers up on the pole, much more in the
way of expense if you want that for some reason, and I don't know of
anybody that does that. Even those who are into having some
nontrivial machinery around seem these days to use a VFD to give them
multiple phases at the machine, rather than going through the expense
of having it run in from the pole...
And here you have it from another CET.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
AIUI in the USA for residential 120/240V single-phase three-wire service drops, electrical utilities either run all three phases along the distribution line or they run two phases. Running one phase and a neutral instead of two phases would reduce the power by the square root of 3
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:37:35PM +0100, [email protected] wrote:
Michael Grant <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, [email protected] wrote:
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
the same phase.
In the U.S. (as mentioned before), the voltage between "hots" is 240V, and between "hot" and "neutral" on any phase is 120V. I'm not sure why our systems were designed this way.
But I do know that it is possible to have
circuits on both phases share a neutral. Thus, if the load on each phase is the same, the neutral will carry no current.
In any given room in a house,
it is entirely possible to have to receptacles which are on different
phases, and possibly sharing a neutral (though this isn't required).
In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet. It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a different part of the house. I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not. I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs. The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe! I'd be interested to know!
David writes:
AIUI in the USA for residential 120/240V single-phase three-wire service
drops, electrical utilities either run all three phases along the
distribution line or they run two phases. Running one phase and a neutral >> instead of two phases would reduce the power by the square root of 3
Here in rural Wisconsin the 7200V distribution line leaves the
substation as three phases and a grounded neutral. This eventually
branches out into three single phase lines consisting of a phase and a grounded neutral. The pole pigs are connected phase to neutral.
I was under the impression that 3-phase to a private residence
contravenes building regulations, as that would make 440V available
for you to electrocute yourself.
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not wired
for internet
From experience, if your house was framed with metal studs, whole housewifi will be annoying. You'll likely need multiple access points and some ethernet runs anyway. :(
On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live in the
hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The overhead line to >> my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I lost equipment.
How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to the Cat 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?
On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 17:09 Paul M Foster
<[1][email protected]> wrote:
Folks:
At some point this year, I'm moving into a new house, and it is not
wired
for internet
From experience, if your house was framed with metal studs, whole house
wifi will be annoying. You'll likely need multiple access points and
some ethernet runs anyway. :(
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 03:13:26PM -0000, Curt wrote:
On 2024-05-28, Paul M Foster <[email protected]> wrote:
but I'd rather not. Since the wifi signal will permeate the whole house, it
seemed more reasonable to plant a device in each room which could pick up >> > the wifi, and provide wired internet to that room.
I don't see why that would be more reliable than just using the wifi
signal without any intermediary. It's only better wired when you're
directly connected to the source router, I should think.
I don't know that it would be more *reliable*, but I have a number of
devices which don't have wifi capability, like my desktop computer.
Paul
On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:54:36 (-0400), Paul M Foster wrote:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:37:35PM +0100, [email protected] wrote: >>> Michael Grant <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 06:11:48PM +0100, [email protected]
wrote:
Most houses in the UK are wired to a single phase, so everything is
connected together at the consumer unit and powerline works just
fine. If you have a specific problem, then there are DIN rail
powerline units designed specifically to be mounted in the CU to
spread the signal better over ALL the circuits.
If your house has 3-phase wiring, which is unusual in the UK, then
you may have a problem because powerline signals do need to be on
the same phase.
Most houses in the UK are on one phase. When there's a failure on only
one or two phases, you can walk down the street and work out which
houses could be on which by whose lights are still on.
I think that with solar generation and battery charging, that may be changing. (I don't know as I don't live there.) But I think that
building regulations will still prevent you from having different
phases in different rooms. (Think of the problems when using
extension cables.)
Note that here I'm meaning true three-phase power, with each phase
at 120° to the others.
In the U.S. (as mentioned before), the voltage between "hots" is 240V, and >> between "hot" and "neutral" on any phase is 120V. I'm not sure why our
systems were designed this way.
You get supplied with a single phase (in the 120° sense above) split
into two. The split power is still on one phase, so the two hots are
at 180° to each other. This means you can run devices require 240V
between one hot and the other: they're easily recognised by their
huge outlets with wacky pin layouts when they're discrete devices, but usually they're plumbed in. AC, (electric) water heaters and dryers,
ranges, etc.
But I do know that it is possible to have
circuits on both phases share a neutral. Thus, if the load on each phase is >> the same, the neutral will carry no current.
If you're using both splits for 240V, then the neutral should be
irrelevant. AIUI a current flowing through the neutral is what makes
the old-fashioned 3-pin devices potentially dangerous: with poor
earthing, the frame can become partially live (sometimes detectable
by passing the back of your hand over the metalwork).
In any given room in a house,
it is entirely possible to have to receptacles which are on different
phases, and possibly sharing a neutral (though this isn't required).
Confusing terms, aren't they: they're a single-phase split, often
called legs, as below, to avoid that ambiguity.
On Tue 28 May 2024 at 13:20:19 (-0400), Michael Grant wrote:
In the US, most houses are wired with 240V split-phase giving 120V to
a mains outlet. It's a 50/50 crapshot if you are on the same leg in a
different part of the house. I don't know if some electricians like
to put all the mains outlets on the same leg or not. I don't know if
these ethernet over power things will work over different legs. The
legs share a neutral and ground, so maybe! I'd be interested to know!
With Powerlines, I see no systematic difference in connection speed
between same leg and opposite legs. However, you do get some outlets
worse than the rest, but I can only surmise that the cause is noise,
possibly from computers etc, or perhaps the individual circuit
breakers. I've never tried to track it down, but it's something to
look out for.
I only ever expect to get 500Mbps because of having two different
generations of Powerline devices.
Cheers,
David.
.
I've never see a 3 phase in a house. Common in commercial/industrial,
though.
On Tue, 28 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live in
the hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The overhead
line to my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I
lost equipment.
How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to the
Cat 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?
Electrical power to my computers comes through 30mA differential circuit breakers to Eaton Ellipse 1600 UPS units. I had no such protection for
the telephone signal, and I saw flashes at the telephone junction box.
So I summise that the Cat5 wiring did the damage.
Roger
Andy Smith <[email protected]> writes:
On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 11:31:29AM +0100, mick.crane wrote:
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring or did I >> misunderstand it.
It works extremely poorly, if at all.
Do you mean homeplugs? I found they worked well. I can't see the post
you are replying to.
Is there not some system that runs ethernet over the mains wiring
On 5/29/24 03:36, Roger Price wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live in the >>>> hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The overhead line to >>>> my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5 conductivity I lost equipment. >>How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to the Cat >>> 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?
Electrical power to my computers comes through 30mA differential circuit
breakers to Eaton Ellipse 1600 UPS units. I had no such protection for the >> telephone signal, and I saw flashes at the telephone junction box. So I
summise that the Cat5 wiring did the damage.
Those UPS's should be able to protect telephone and Ethernet, in addition to electrical power. Have you applied the UPS's to the former two?
https://www.eaton.com/sg/en-us/catalog/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/eaton-ellipse-pro-ups.html
On Wed, 29 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/29/24 03:36, Roger Price wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live
in the hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The
overhead line to my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5
conductivity I lost equipment.
How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to
the Cat 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?
Electrical power to my computers comes through 30mA differential
circuit breakers to Eaton Ellipse 1600 UPS units. I had no such
protection for the telephone signal, and I saw flashes at the
telephone junction box. So I summise that the Cat5 wiring did the
damage.
Those UPS's should be able to protect telephone and Ethernet, in
addition to electrical power. Have you applied the UPS's to the
former two?
The UPS's stand next to the workstations and well away from the place
where the telephone line arrives, so I didn't use the UPS's to protect
the telephone line. My fault. Later I added a surge protector to the
copper telephone line. I am now in the process of migrating from copper
to fiber so I will need an extra UPS next the fiber terminator.
Roger
===============================================================================
https://www.eaton.com/sg/en-us/catalog/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/eaton-ellipse-pro-ups.html
PS: I once had a lightning strike direct to the house. Frightening. Although every differential circuit breaker in the house tripped, the
circuit board in the UPS melted. But even when melting, it protected
the Dell T7500. No damage to the T7500, no data lost. I took a photo of
the melt, sent it to Eaton, and they replaced the UPS.
On Wed, 29 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/29/24 03:36, Roger Price wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2024, David Christensen wrote:
On 5/28/24 00:28, Roger Price wrote:
I wired my place Cat5. A lot of work, and I regretted it. I live
in the hills behind Nice, an area with a lot of lightning. The
overhead line to my place took a hit and thanks to the Cat5
conductivity I lost equipment.
How do you know that the damage your equipment suffered was due to
the Cat 5e wiring and not due to the electrical power conductors?
Electrical power to my computers comes through 30mA differential
circuit breakers to Eaton Ellipse 1600 UPS units. I had no such
protection for the telephone signal, and I saw flashes at the
telephone junction box. So I summise that the Cat5 wiring did the
damage.
Those UPS's should be able to protect telephone and Ethernet, in
addition to electrical power. Have you applied the UPS's to the
former two?
The UPS's stand next to the workstations and well away from the place
where the telephone line arrives, so I didn't use the UPS's to protect
the telephone line. My fault. Later I added a surge protector to the
copper telephone line. I am now in the process of migrating from copper
to fiber so I will need an extra UPS next the fiber terminator.
Roger
===============================================================================
https://www.eaton.com/sg/en-us/catalog/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/eaton-ellipse-pro-ups.html
PS: I once had a lightning strike direct to the house. Frightening. Although every differential circuit breaker in the house tripped, the
circuit board in the UPS melted. But even when melting, it protected
the Dell T7500. No damage to the T7500, no data lost. I took a photo of
the melt, sent it to Eaton, and they replaced the UPS.
On 2024-05-29 16:08, gene heskett wrote:And here in the USA, the NEC demands two ground rods separated by enough distance it actually is two good grounds. I have had zero problems since
Except at the service. Properly wired, the neutral and static groundsAIUI the distribution neutral is hammered into the ground at the substation/generator.
are bonded ONLY in the service box. I am constantly amazed at the
people who call themselves electricians, who think the static ground
and the neutral are interchangeable just because they are bonded at
the service.
Some electricians say you don't need the earth, another explained it is necessary to locally drive a conductor into the ground and attach the
earth to that in case something happens to the distribution neutral the electric has somewhere to go to trip a relay in the house.
mick
.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 715 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 149:01:12 |
| Calls: | 12,091 |
| Calls today: | 4 |
| Files: | 15,000 |
| Messages: | 6,517,565 |