• reviewing our separately-packaged core libraries

    From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 26 07:30:02 2025
    Hello,

    As Emacs 30.1 is now heading for trixie, we face once more this issue
    described in dh-elpa's documentation:

    [Distinguish] packages that are maintained outside of the elpa-*
    namespace in Debian, plus Emacs itself.

    Also remove built-in packages, except those built-in packages
    that are also packaged separately in Debian.

    These are packaged separately for two reasons:

    - it allows us to provide newer versions than those in Emacs core

    - it permits use of addons with older versions of Emacs, for
    which the dependency is not yet a built-in package.

    A shortcoming is that for built-in packages, the Lisp in our elpa-*
    packages always takes precedence, such that if we upload a new release
    of Emacs with a version of one of these packages that's newer than the
    one we have separately packaged, the older code will be loaded,
    leading to hard-to-diagnose incompatibilities.

    For the time being the upshot is that after uploading a new Emacs
    release to sid, we also need to ensure everything listed here is
    up-to-date with upstream in sid, too.

    I am going to add something src:emacs's README.source to look at these
    each release; this e-mail is to start us looking at them for this
    release.

    I think we should review what we actually want to keep and consider
    removing them, based on how stable the package is now, how stable is
    seems likely to remain.

    let-alist
    =========

    Received substantive new functionality as recently as September 2024,
    which addon packages may want to start depending on, so we should
    probably keep it separately packaged.

    Needs an update to a snapshot version, else installing elpa-let-alist constitutes a downgrade of functionality as compared with base Emacs.

    Rémi, can you take a look?

    transient
    =========

    We definitely want to keep this for newer versions of Magit.

    I think it's already up-to-date.

    seq
    ===

    There was a decision from the two Stefans:

    ;; Note regarding the `seq' package on GNU ELPA:
    ;;
    ;; It was decided not to bother upgrading seq beyond 2.24 on GNU ELPA.
    ;; The main purpose of the GNU ELPA package was to encourage adoption
    ;; and accommodate changes more easily, but it's mature enough that
    ;; changes are fairly slow. Thus, we can now rely on "the usual"
    ;; solutions to deal with compatibility issues. (Bug#60990)

    I think this creates an expectation that packages should rely on the
    version of seq.el in the user's version of Emacs and raise their base
    Emacs dependency if they can't do without more.

    Therefore, we should remove this.

    We'll need to clear all the rdeps first.

    Xiyue and Aymeric, this might be a useful learning experience, would one
    or both of you like to handle both clearing the rdeps and filing the RM
    bug? You can just get started preparing the uploads, no need to wait
    for each other. And then once it's done, an RM bug.

    xref & project
    ==============

    I originally packaged these because both were getting a revamp and I
    thought they should be in Debian sooner.

    They're now much more stable, and their development is entangled with
    changes in core Emacs. I think it would be reasonable to expect users
    to have to wait for a newer Emacs in order to get newer features in
    these two libraries. GNU ELPA is already behind what's in Emacs 30.1 so
    we'd be required to package a snapshot.

    I'll file RC bugs to kick them out of testing and ask for objections to
    filing RM bugs.

    Org-mode
    ========

    I assume we still want a separate package for this because it's such a
    large thing of its own.

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Xiyue Deng on Fri Feb 28 04:00:01 2025
    Hello,

    On Thu 27 Feb 2025 at 04:10pm -08, Xiyue Deng wrote:

    I have a quick and dirty script (attached) trying to find all packages
    that may have a corresponding builtin package (it may have missed a few though), and the result is the following:

    ,----
    | elpa-xref
    | elpa-which-key
    | elpa-use-package
    | elpa-transient
    | elpa-seq
    | elpa-project
    | elpa-org
    | elpa-let-alist
    | elpa-faceup
    | elpa-eglot
    | elpa-editorconfig
    | elpa-compat
    | elpa-bind-key
    `----

    Removing what Sean already mentioned, adding elpa-peg which is currently
    in the NEW queue, we have the following (sorted):

    ,----
    | elpa-bind-key
    | elpa-compat
    | elpa-editorconfig
    | elpa-eglot
    | elpa-faceup
    | elpa-peg
    | elpa-use-package
    | elpa-which-key
    `----

    According to etc/NEWS, editorconfig, which-key, peg, and compat are
    newly added in 30.1. Of those 8, editorconfig, which-key, eglot,
    bind-key, faceup, and use-package has no reverse dependency. elpa-peg
    was introduced for emacs-pg-el with the new upstream, and I guess
    elpa-compat will still be regularly updated. Maybe the 6 packages
    without rdepends can also be candidates to be kept from Trixie (or even
    RM)?

    Thanks. Well, it's case-by-case. It depends on how much development
    they are seeing, I think.

    compat-el we probably want to keep. Its purpose is to allow other
    addons to use features that are newer than the major version of Emacs we
    have. It's useless when its major version is in sync with Emacs's, but
    that's not always going to be the case.

    elpa-bind-key and elpa-use-package go together.
    Might people would want newer features? Are they getting new features?

    eglot, editorconfig, peg, faceup, IHNI.

    What we want to imagine is the situation where a new version of Emacs
    comes out during our freeze, so Debian is either one or two major
    releases behind for at least two years. What might we want to ensure we
    can ship newer version of, in that case?

    Really we want to be aiming to RM or keep in trixie. My "keep out of
    trixie" bugs are meant to be a step towards removal.
    It's not good for packages to disappear in one stable release and then
    reappear in the next.

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Lev Lamberov@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 28 08:20:02 2025
    Hi,

    Пт 28 фев 2025 @ 10:54 Sean Whitton <[email protected]>:

    elpa-bind-key and elpa-use-package go together.
    Might people would want newer features? Are they getting new features?

    The latest release of use-package is dated 2024-08-20 (and it is shipped
    in GNU Emacs 30.1). As I can see it's GitHub repository is not
    up-to-date (the latest commit here is 2 years old now), newer versions
    are pubished at GNU ELPA. The package in Debian needs either updating (I personally don't have enough time to deal with it at the moment), or
    probably removed from Debian (since it it included in GNU Emacs itself).
    I'm not quite sure about it's future. Well, there are two newer version published at GNU ELPA, 2.4.5 dated 2024-03-31 and 2.4.6 dated
    2024-08-20, but before them there were not updates since 2022-11-14.
    Probably, there will be newer versions and someone™ (not me) might want
    them to be packaged for backports.

    When it comes to bind-key, it was removed from the Debian archive in
    2019, since it was integrated into use-package. The version of
    use-package currently in Debian ships bind-key, but the latest version
    of use-package does not ship it while it depends on bind-key. As I
    understand, it is supposed to load bind-key as shipped in GNU Emacs.

    Cheers!
    Lev

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  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Xiyue Deng on Fri Feb 28 09:30:01 2025
    Hello,

    On Thu 27 Feb 2025 at 11:58pm -08, Xiyue Deng wrote:

    Sean Whitton <[email protected]> writes:

    [...]

    eglot, editorconfig, peg, faceup, IHNI.

    Forgot to mention: I packaged peg just for emacs-pg-el without knowing
    that it'll ship with Emacs 30.1. I think it's fine to keep it out of
    Trixie in case it leaves the NEW queue before freeze (I'll make sure to
    file the RC bug).

    Shouldn't I just reject it from NEW?

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Aymeric Agon-Rambosson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 28 21:50:01 2025
    Hello everyone,

    (Sorry Sean for the multiple receptions)

    Le mercredi 26 février 2025 à 14:23, Sean Whitton
    <[email protected]> a écrit :

    seq
    ===

    There was a decision from the two Stefans:

    ;; Note regarding the `seq' package on GNU ELPA:
    ;;
    ;; It was decided not to bother upgrading seq beyond 2.24 on GNU
    ELPA.
    ;; The main purpose of the GNU ELPA package was to encourage
    adoption
    ;; and accommodate changes more easily, but it's mature enough
    that
    ;; changes are fairly slow. Thus, we can now rely on "the
    usual"
    ;; solutions to deal with compatibility issues. (Bug#60990)

    I think this creates an expectation that packages should rely on
    the
    version of seq.el in the user's version of Emacs and raise their
    base
    Emacs dependency if they can't do without more.

    Therefore, we should remove this.

    We'll need to clear all the rdeps first.

    Xiyue and Aymeric, this might be a useful learning experience,
    would one
    or both of you like to handle both clearing the rdeps and filing
    the RM
    bug? You can just get started preparing the uploads, no need to
    wait
    for each other. And then once it's done, an RM bug.

    Regarding the rdeps of seq, I did a little bit of digging. For all
    the rdepends on elpa-seq I could find (using apt-cache on debian
    stable), we have the following :

    No explicit dependency on elpa-seq :

    compat-el
    eglot
    magit-forge-el
    transient
    elisp-bug-hunter
    org-d20
    fountain-mode
    ido-ubiquitous

    In those packages, the dependency on elpa-seq was added by
    dh-elpa, so a simple rebuild without any change should drop those dependencies, since Sean updated dh-elpa already. Sean, I assume
    you still have the script you used to trigger mass rebuilds
    against a newer version of dh-elpa you used last summer.

    Explicit build dependency on elpa-seq :

    - magit build depends on seq (>= 2.24), can be replaced by a build
    dependency on emacs-common (>= 1:29.2) (lowest emacs-common
    version providing seq (>= 2.24))

    - flycheck build depends on seq (no version), can be replaced by a
    build dependency on emacs-common (no version), or even nothing
    at all

    - m-buffer-el build depends on seq (no version), (despite the
    source file asking for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a
    build dependency on emacs-common (no version) (all emacs-common
    versions from buster provide seq (>= 2.14))

    - org-drill build depends on seq (no version), (despite the source
    file asking for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a build
    dependency on emacs-common (no version) (all emacs-common
    versions from buster provide seq (>= 2.14))

    Unless you have objections with the proposed changes, I can go
    ahead with them. I will only be able to upload magit, though. I'll
    wait a couple of days.

    Best,

    Aymeric

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  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Aymeric Agon-Rambosson on Sun Mar 2 08:30:01 2025
    Hello,

    On Fri 28 Feb 2025 at 09:42pm +01, Aymeric Agon-Rambosson wrote:

    Regarding the rdeps of seq, I did a little bit of digging. For all the rdepends on elpa-seq I could find (using apt-cache on debian stable), we have the following :

    No explicit dependency on elpa-seq :

    compat-el
    eglot
    magit-forge-el
    transient
    elisp-bug-hunter
    org-d20
    fountain-mode
    ido-ubiquitous

    In those packages, the dependency on elpa-seq was added by dh-elpa, so a simple rebuild without any change should drop those dependencies, since Sean updated dh-elpa already.

    Thanks for doing the research here.

    Sean, I assume you still have the script you used to trigger mass
    rebuilds against a newer version of dh-elpa you used last summer.

    Skipped eglot because it's due to be RM'd, these are done.

    Explicit build dependency on elpa-seq :

    magit build depends on seq (>= 2.24), can be replaced by a build dependency on
    emacs-common (>= 1:29.2) (lowest emacs-common version providing seq (>= 2.24))
    flycheck build depends on seq (no version), can be replaced by a build dependency on emacs-common (no version), or even nothing at all
    m-buffer-el build depends on seq (no version), (despite the source file asking
    for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a build dependency on emacs-common (no version) (all emacs-common versions from buster provide seq (>= 2.14)) org-drill build depends on seq (no version), (despite the source file asking for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a build dependency on emacs-common (no version) (all emacs-common versions from buster provide seq (>= 2.14))

    They only need a build-dep on emacs/emacs-common if they require seq
    from Emacs >=30.1. Otherwise, just remove the seq-el dep, and don't add anything.

    --
    Sean Whitton

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  • From Aymeric Agon-Rambosson@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 5 08:30:01 2025
    Hello,

    Le dimanche 2 mars 2025 à 15:20, Sean Whitton
    <[email protected]> a écrit :

    magit build depends on seq (>= 2.24), can be replaced by a
    build dependency on
    emacs-common (>= 1:29.2) (lowest emacs-common version providing
    seq (>= 2.24))
    flycheck build depends on seq (no version), can be replaced by
    a build
    dependency on emacs-common (no version), or even nothing at all
    m-buffer-el build depends on seq (no version), (despite the
    source file asking
    for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a build dependency on
    emacs-common (no
    version) (all emacs-common versions from buster provide seq (>=
    2.14))
    org-drill build depends on seq (no version), (despite the
    source file asking
    for seq (>= 2.14)), can be replaced by a build dependency on
    emacs-common (no
    version) (all emacs-common versions from buster provide seq (>=
    2.14))

    They only need a build-dep on emacs/emacs-common if they require
    seq
    from Emacs >=30.1. Otherwise, just remove the seq-el dep, and
    don't add
    anything.

    Done, removed all explicit elpa-seq build dependencies from the
    aforementioned packages, pushed the corresponding commits.

    I did not make any uploads.

    Best,

    Aymeric

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  • From Aymeric Agon-Rambosson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 7 14:20:01 2025
    Hi,

    Le mercredi 5 mars 2025 à 22:50, Xiyue Deng <[email protected]> a
    écrit :

    Thanks for working on this! Can you also list the packages that
    you
    worked on and need an upload?

    Well, this is the same list of "aforementioned" packages I
    mentioned, so :
    - magit
    - flycheck
    - m-buffer-el
    - org-drill

    Best,

    Aymeric

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