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  • Re: [RFCv3] Counter-Proposal -- Interpretation of DFSG on Artificial In

    From Thorsten Glaser@21:1/5 to Aigars Mahinovs on Sun May 11 01:00:01 2025
    On Sat, 10 May 2025, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:

    An algorithm that only stores and produces an *average* value across a
    wide set of inputs can not be any kind of compression.

    It’s not “just” an average: as has been shown, substantial amounts of substantially unmodified “training data” can be extracted.

    It is data mining.

    The copyright exception for text and data mining is only valid for
    uses that extract trends and things like that, not for generative
    use (and not for content with explicit opt-out, which those scrapers
    ignored).

    then go up. If I run "wc" on a copyrighted work, the number of words
    in the document is *not* a derived work from the original document.

    If you JPEG-compress a photo of the original document then uncompress
    it, it *is*.

    And, again, this has been shown to be substantially significantly for
    these models to be possible, therefore we need to act as if the output
    of such generation is derived from its inputs in the general case.
    There will always be outputs which aren’t, and inputs which don’t
    influence a subset of particular outputs, but the sum of its outputs
    is mechanicall derived from (most of) the sum of its inputs.

    bye,
    //mirabilos
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  • From Thorsten Glaser@21:1/5 to Aigars Mahinovs on Sun May 11 22:20:01 2025
    On Sun, 11 May 2025, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:

    If you JPEG-compress a photo of the original document then uncompress
    it, it *is*.

    Please, restore a document from the output of "wc". Or from the output

    Can you even read?

    EOT,
    //mirabilos
    --
    22:20⎜<asarch> The crazy that persists in his craziness becomes a master 22:21⎜<asarch> And the distance between the craziness and geniality is
    only measured by the success 18:35⎜<asarch> "Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent

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  • From Thorsten Glaser@21:1/5 to Aigars Mahinovs on Mon May 12 00:10:01 2025
    On Sun, 11 May 2025, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:

    Just because *one* software process produces a loosely compression,
    does not mean that ALL software processes are just lossy compression.

    Just because *one* doesn’t doesn’t mean none does either *sigh…*

    Please, just, go away. I don’t have the spoons to “discuss” with
    a Google and AI fanboy.

    Thanks,
    //mirabilos
    --
    15:41⎜<Lo-lan-do:#fusionforge> Somebody write a testsuite for helloworld :-)

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  • From Matthias Urlichs@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 12 08:40:01 2025
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  • From Simon Josefsson@21:1/5 to Thorsten Glaser on Mon May 12 09:00:01 2025
    Thorsten Glaser <[email protected]> writes:

    Counter-Proposal -- Interpretation of DFSG on (AI) Models (v3) =========================================================

    I don't know if further seconds are needed for each new version of a
    proposal, but for clarity I'll second this version too.

    I realized that I have one additional generic concern: You claim that >>models are a derivate work of their training input.

    Yes. This is easily shown, for example by looking at how they work, https://explainextended.com/2023/12/31/happy-new-year-15/ explained
    this well, and in papers like “Extracting Training Data from ChatGPT”.
    It is a sort of lossy compression that has shown to be sufficiently
    un-lossy enough (urgs, forgive my lack of English) that recognisable “training data” can be recalled, and the operators’ “fix” was to add
    filters to the prompts, not to make it impossible, because they cannot.

    I don't think this question is legally established or socially agreed
    on, and I think it will be an area of conflict for many years. I also
    don't mind this text in your proposal because I happen to agree with it.
    But I think it would be possible to disagree on that (and many people
    do) and still agree with the rest of your proposal about what Debian
    should do in this situation.

    /Simon

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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 12 10:04:29 2025
    On Saturday, May 10, 2025 11:03:31 AM Mountain Standard Time Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
    If your entire proposal is based on this assumption about how
    copyright and copyright law works, I would expect something more
    substantial, like court decisions supporting this radical new
    interpretation. And overturning things like Article 4 of EU Directive 2019/790 granting near complete copyright exception to text and data
    mining. This was explicitly referred to in EU AI Directive in context
    of the use of training data. And overturning of a *ton* of already
    decided "fair use" cases in USA.

    I know this isn’t a ton of already decided fair use cases, but I saw the following link this morning.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-copyright-office-thoughts-ai-235936541.html

    Two quotes from the US Copyright Office.

    “Although it is not possible to prejudge the result in any particular case, precedent supports the following general observations,” the office said. “Various uses of copyrighted works in AI training are likely to be transformative. The extent to which they are fair, however, will depend on what works were used, from what source, for what purpose, and with what controls on the outputs — all of which can affect the market.”

    “When a model is deployed for purposes such as analysis or research — the types of uses that are critical to international competitiveness — the outputs
    are unlikely to substitute for expressive works used in training,” the office
    said. “But making commercial use of vast troves of copyrighted works to produce expressive content that competes with them in existing markets, especially where this is accomplished through illegal access, goes beyond established fair use boundaries.”


    As has already been said a number of times in these threads, it isn’t a settled issue whether copyrighted words can be used to train an AI model without the permission of the copyright holder. The answer to that question probably depends on if such training ends up being considered fair use. The above quotes indicate that, according to the US Copyright Office, whether it is fair use could depend on how the AI is used *after it is trained*.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    [email protected]
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