• Q to all candidates: future of Debian finances

    From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to Andreas Tille on Thu Apr 3 13:20:01 2025
    Hi,

    Quoting Andreas' reply in an earlier thread:

    On 18/03/25 at 16:14 +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
    Understanding Debian's financial situation is essential for the DPL, as
    one of the DPL's responsibilities is making decisions on funding
    requests. However, it is important to emphasize that the actual
    financial management-including tracking income, expenses, and
    reporting-is handled by the treasurers. Their work ensures that Debian's finances are well managed and accounted for, and the DPL relies on their expertise to make informed decisions.

    For a long time, financial decision-making was relatively
    straightforward. In his Bits from the DPL talk, Neil once mentioned at DebConf15 that he approved every single funding request he received, and Debian's financial reserves still grew during his term. Unfortunately,
    these simpler times seem to be over, and the need for careful financial planning has increased. I'd love to be in Neil's shoes, and I hope that future DPLs will see those times return.


    Do you see this as a problem? What solutions do you envision, and what
    will be your strategy as DPL when dealing with finances? For example,
    identify where costs can be reduced? Instead, increase revenue (how?)?
    Both?

    Also, why do you think we aren't anymore in the comfortable situation we
    were in ten years ago?

    - Lucas

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Pierre-Elliott_B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Fri Apr 4 19:50:01 2025
    Lucas Nussbaum <[email protected]> wrote on 03/04/2025 at 13:17:48+0200:

    Hi,

    Quoting Andreas' reply in an earlier thread:

    On 18/03/25 at 16:14 +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
    Understanding Debian's financial situation is essential for the DPL, as
    one of the DPL's responsibilities is making decisions on funding
    requests. However, it is important to emphasize that the actual
    financial management-including tracking income, expenses, and
    reporting-is handled by the treasurers. Their work ensures that Debian's
    finances are well managed and accounted for, and the DPL relies on their
    expertise to make informed decisions.

    For a long time, financial decision-making was relatively
    straightforward. In his Bits from the DPL talk, Neil once mentioned at
    DebConf15 that he approved every single funding request he received, and
    Debian's financial reserves still grew during his term. Unfortunately,
    these simpler times seem to be over, and the need for careful financial
    planning has increased. I'd love to be in Neil's shoes, and I hope that
    future DPLs will see those times return.


    Do you see this as a problem? What solutions do you envision, and what
    will be your strategy as DPL when dealing with finances? For example, identify where costs can be reduced? Instead, increase revenue (how?)?
    Both?

    Also, why do you think we aren't anymore in the comfortable situation we
    were in ten years ago?

    At some point we will need to communicate a bit more on the matter.

    This is a public list, and as a TO administrator, I have part of the
    answers, but it's not my place to disclose the full situation publicly.

    I'd say that essentially our funds ~halved since 2019/2020. While we are
    not close to be broke, this could go fast if we are not vigilant.

    We didn't receive enough sponsorship for the recent Debian events (both DebConf23 and 24 made a significant dent in our funds), and we needed to
    buy hardware (the time where some companies gave it to us seems far
    away).

    The main issue, sponsors, might be something that can be solved easily,
    if potential sponsors realize that their help is still needed.

    Debian is Free, but Debian has costs to run. Without our sponsors and
    donors, at some point we will hit a wall.

    --
    PEB

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  • From Julian Andres Klode@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Fri Apr 4 23:20:01 2025
    On Thu, Apr 03, 2025 at 01:17:48PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    Hi,

    Quoting Andreas' reply in an earlier thread:

    On 18/03/25 at 16:14 +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
    Understanding Debian's financial situation is essential for the DPL, as
    one of the DPL's responsibilities is making decisions on funding
    requests. However, it is important to emphasize that the actual
    financial management-including tracking income, expenses, and
    reporting-is handled by the treasurers. Their work ensures that Debian's finances are well managed and accounted for, and the DPL relies on their expertise to make informed decisions.

    For a long time, financial decision-making was relatively
    straightforward. In his Bits from the DPL talk, Neil once mentioned at DebConf15 that he approved every single funding request he received, and Debian's financial reserves still grew during his term. Unfortunately, these simpler times seem to be over, and the need for careful financial planning has increased. I'd love to be in Neil's shoes, and I hope that future DPLs will see those times return.


    Do you see this as a problem? What solutions do you envision, and what
    will be your strategy as DPL when dealing with finances? For example, identify where costs can be reduced? Instead, increase revenue (how?)?
    Both?

    Also, why do you think we aren't anymore in the comfortable situation we
    were in ten years ago?

    It seems we're spending a significant amount more than we have donations
    on a yearly basis, leading at least the SPI assets to shrink by almost
    100k per year and hence running dry in 2-3 years if it continues (
    especially if we had 430k at the end of 2024, and now 300k as previously reported; and we had 700k a couple years ago).

    I think this was because there was a larger donation year a couple
    years ago; rather than just low spending, but I don't quite recall
    the details.

    I think it would be optimal if we had a buffer that accounts for
    2 years of expenses, and have expenses that match the regular
    donations.

    A large part of that would be to have regular donors, I suppose,
    rather than one-off donors.
    --
    debian developer - deb.li/jak | jak-linux.org - free software dev
    ubuntu core developer i speak de, en

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  • From Nilesh Patra@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 6 00:10:02 2025
    Hi PEB,

    On 04/04/25 11:18 pm, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
    This is a public list, and as a TO administrator, I have part of the
    answers, but it's not my place to disclose the full situation publicly.

    I'd say that essentially our funds ~halved since 2019/2020. While we are
    not close to be broke, this could go fast if we are not vigilant.

    We didn't receive enough sponsorship for the recent Debian events (both DebConf23 and 24 made a significant dent in our funds), and we needed to
    buy hardware (the time where some companies gave it to us seems far
    away).

    The main issue, sponsors, might be something that can be solved easily,
    if potential sponsors realize that their help is still needed.

    I am only asking this because I am curious about it.

    I remember hearing a pointer from a few folks that one of the reasons for higher cost of debconf 23 and 24 was it due to being in Asia while most of
    the DDs live in Europe.
    As a result, the travel costs bumped up the overall conference expense.
    This year DC is happening in France, but based on the IRC discussions
    it still seems that the budget is a bit tight - so what would be an ideal geographic location just in terms of costs involved?

    Also, was there a reduction in sponsorship costs in DC23,24 as compared to
    the Debconfs before 2022? Is there a reason?

    PS: Now that the campaign period is over, I hope it is fine to discuss this. Feel
    free to move it to a more suitable ML if needed.

    Best,
    Nilesh

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  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 5 23:30:01 2025
    Hi Lucas,

    Am Thu, Apr 03, 2025 at 01:17:48PM +0200 schrieb Lucas Nussbaum:
    For a long time, financial decision-making was relatively
    straightforward. In his Bits from the DPL talk, Neil once mentioned at DebConf15 that he approved every single funding request he received, and Debian's financial reserves still grew during his term. Unfortunately, these simpler times seem to be over, and the need for careful financial planning has increased. I'd love to be in Neil's shoes, and I hope that future DPLs will see those times return.

    Do you see this as a problem?

    Yes.

    What solutions do you envision, and what
    will be your strategy as DPL when dealing with finances?

    Just a few quick ideas:

    1. Coordinate with the Partners team to explore new sponsorship
    opportunities and strengthen relationships with both existing and
    potential partners.

    2. Trust the DebConf team to continue looking into ways to increase
    sponsorship for the conference.

    I admit that fundraising isn't my strongest skill - but I'm very open to suggestions and happy to support others who are better at it.

    For example,
    identify where costs can be reduced?

    I must admit that finding sensible places to cut the budget is something
    I personally find difficult.

    Instead, increase revenue (how?)?

    I'm definitely in favor of increasing revenue - but I have to admit I
    don't have better answers than the ones I already mentioned above.

    Both?

    Also, why do you think we aren't anymore in the comfortable situation we
    were in ten years ago?

    See PEBs answer about two expensive DebConfs in a row (for different
    reasons).

    Kind regards
    Andreas.

    --
    https://fam-tille.de

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  • From Daniel Lange@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 6 13:00:01 2025
    Hi Nilesh,

    I remember hearing a pointer from a few folks that one of the reasons for higher cost of debconf 23 and 24 was it due to being in Asia while most of the DDs live in Europe.
    As a result, the travel costs bumped up the overall conference expense.

    That is true, but the biggest groups we typically fly is Indian DDs. So
    - by logic - it should have been the cheapest DebConf, it was the most expensive one.
    But then it was the first in a five star hotel. And we still had to pay
    a venue for lecture halls.

    The biggest cost factor for DebConfs is whether we can get a good venue (lecture halls, hackspace, accommodation) for free, strongly discounted
    or pay some common market prices.

    E.g. the team at DebConf22 got us the ITZ Prizen very cheap, they
    essentially sponsored as Platinum sponsors. The total additional income
    there still was ~200k USD due to a very active fundraising team. That
    DebConf made a small net profit like so many before it.

    The ones following were all net loss, mostly due to much higher expenses.

    This year DC is happening in France, but based on the IRC discussions
    it still seems that the budget is a bit tight - so what would be an ideal geographic location just in terms of costs involved?

    The Brest venue / accommodation are very expensive, so is the food.
    These are the cost drivers this year. The travel cost ("travel
    bursaries") budgeted is similar to the previous years at this point in
    time. This was important to the current DPL and the teams involved from DebConf. The income total (comparable to the below figures) currently
    stands at
    DC25 ~133k USD.

    We are - of course - trying our best to raise more funds.

    Also, was there a reduction in sponsorship costs in DC23,24 as compared to the Debconfs before 2022? Is there a reason?

    I guess you mean sponsorship income?

    DC22 ~210k USD

    DC23 ~175k USD

    DC24 ~194k USD

    There's additional income from professional and corporate registrations, self-payers and sometimes local income which cannot be freely used (e.g. government sponsorships bound to certain expense items). So the numbers
    above are rough direct sponsor income or in-kind for venues only and
    thus somewhat comparable.
    The DebConf finances are public, people can read the ledgers in the team
    repos. Understanding them ... is a different thing. But the DebConf
    treasurer for each year is surely willing to answer questions from any
    project member.

    Kind regards,

    Daniel

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  • From Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 6 16:10:01 2025
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  • From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 9 09:50:01 2025
    Hi,

    On 04/04/25 at 19:48 +0200, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:
    We didn't receive enough sponsorship for the recent Debian events (both DebConf23 and 24 made a significant dent in our funds), and we needed to
    buy hardware (the time where some companies gave it to us seems far
    away).

    The main issue, sponsors, might be something that can be solved easily,
    if potential sponsors realize that their help is still needed.

    I've been wondering for a long time if our fundraising strategy is
    optimal.

    We are mainly fundraising in the context of DebConf. It is useful when fundraising to be explicit about a specific goal (organizing a
    conference), but it also means that the convincing work needs to be done
    every year.

    Maybe we should also have a plan to raise funds directly for Debian (not specifically for DebConf). It might provide a path to convince
    organizations to allocate a yearly budget to Debian, and turn an opt-in
    scheme (per-DebConf sponsoring) to an opt-out scheme (annual Debian contribution, that continues by default every year). In large
    organizations, it might be easier to do the convincing work once and
    then get that sponsorship written in recurring yearly expenses.

    Benefits of sponsoring Debian could include "be mentioned as a Debian
    sponsor at official Debian events, next to event-specific sponsors".

    An important challenge with such a setup would be to build a team
    responsible for organizing that fundraising. It looks like, currently,
    we push that responsibility to the DebConf team (with the
    motivation/hammer that if they don't do well at fundraising, it directly
    limits their ability to organize a nice DebConf).

    Lucas

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Pierre-Elliott_B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Wed Apr 9 23:10:01 2025
    Hello,

    Lucas Nussbaum <[email protected]> wrote on 09/04/2025 at 08:59:22+0200:

    Hi,

    On 04/04/25 at 19:48 +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
    We didn't receive enough sponsorship for the recent Debian events (both
    DebConf23 and 24 made a significant dent in our funds), and we needed to
    buy hardware (the time where some companies gave it to us seems far
    away).

    The main issue, sponsors, might be something that can be solved easily,
    if potential sponsors realize that their help is still needed.

    I've been wondering for a long time if our fundraising strategy is
    optimal.

    We are mainly fundraising in the context of DebConf. It is useful when fundraising to be explicit about a specific goal (organizing a
    conference), but it also means that the convincing work needs to be done every year.

    Yes and no.

    Most sponsors just need a mail to accept to continue, but some don't
    (change in management, budget constraints, us coming too late to ask).

    Some even contact us before we contact them.

    But true, if some sponsors were to just support us periodically on their
    own, it'd reduce the burden.

    Maybe we should also have a plan to raise funds directly for Debian (not specifically for DebConf). It might provide a path to convince
    organizations to allocate a yearly budget to Debian, and turn an opt-in scheme (per-DebConf sponsoring) to an opt-out scheme (annual Debian contribution, that continues by default every year). In large
    organizations, it might be easier to do the convincing work once and
    then get that sponsorship written in recurring yearly expenses.

    Always wanted to learn how to do SEPA Direct Debit :D

    (don't hit me, that's a joke)

    Benefits of sponsoring Debian could include "be mentioned as a Debian
    sponsor at official Debian events, next to event-specific sponsors".

    Yes, but I guess some companies are better off asking for a budget for a specific thing.

    Others, though, might be fairly interested as they heavily rely on
    Debian. But if we don't tell them that money might be an issue, they
    can't guess (I don't espect Debian sponsors or companies relying on the
    project to read -vote).

    An important challenge with such a setup would be to build a team
    responsible for organizing that fundraising. It looks like, currently,
    we push that responsibility to the DebConf team (with the
    motivation/hammer that if they don't do well at fundraising, it directly limits their ability to organize a nice DebConf).

    Whatever happens, as usual, Debian France will happily try and help.

    Bests,
    --
    PEB

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  • From Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 10 14:10:02 2025
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  • From Bill Allombert@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 10 21:20:01 2025
    Le Sun, Apr 06, 2025 at 11:08:35AM -0300, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana a �crit :
    Hi,

    This is not related to the election, but I would like to propose to the next DPL we organize a "call for donations".

    First, we need to organize a "call for people interesting to organize a call for donations" to gather volunteers to discuss ideas for the campaign.

    Debian not asking users for money, and more generally, Debian operating
    with very little cash flow is a major reason I contribute to it.

    If Debconf is not sustainable with our current level of funding then we
    should spend less money on Debconf and Debconf could look other source
    of funding.

    Actively asking 'regular people' (as mentionned in your subsequent email) to donate is crossing a line that should not be crossed. Debconf is not
    worth it.

    Cheers,
    --
    Bill. <[email protected]>

    Imagine a large red swirl here.

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  • From =?utf-8?Q?Pierre-Elliott_B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Bill Allombert on Fri Apr 11 12:20:01 2025
    Bill Allombert <[email protected]> wrote on 10/04/2025 at 21:14:16+0200:

    Le Sun, Apr 06, 2025 at 11:08:35AM -0300, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana a écrit :
    Hi,

    This is not related to the election, but I would like to propose to the next >> DPL we organize a "call for donations".

    First, we need to organize a "call for people interesting to organize a call >> for donations" to gather volunteers to discuss ideas for the campaign.

    Debian not asking users for money, and more generally, Debian operating
    with very little cash flow is a major reason I contribute to it.

    If Debconf is not sustainable with our current level of funding then we should spend less money on Debconf and Debconf could look other source
    of funding.

    Actively asking 'regular people' (as mentionned in your subsequent email) to donate is crossing a line that should not be crossed. Debconf is not
    worth it.

    DebConf is litterally one of the things keeping many of us together and
    giving dynamics to the project.

    Its current cost is less than 1k per attendee for 15 days.

    --
    PEB

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