Dear candidates!

Firstly, thanks for stepping up for running for DPL.

Unfortunately, outside of maintaining my own packages I've had little
Debian time for the last few months, so I'm not as up to date with all
the Debian problems as I'd like to be.

But, lucky for you, there's enough difficult questions to go around!
(sorry, you're all experienced DD's, so no low-ball questions here, take
it as an opportunity!). Some of it is very specific and some more
open-ended, answer as little or much as you like.

1. Community Team

How do you feel about the Community Team?

Is there something you would change?

Do you have any ideas in how to support them so that they can help our community better?

2. VCS

Salsa has been stable for a number of years now, and git is clearly a
good choice of default VCS (even though not perfect or preferred for all).

How do you feel about VCS requirements in Debian? Should it be required
that Debian packages are maintained in Salsa? How do you feel about dgit
and tag2upload?

Do you have any ideas about VCS use in Debian that you would promote as DPL?

A while back someone told me that they want to NMU one of my packages.
It was maintained in /debian on salsa, so I reminded them that this is basically collab-maint these days and they did the right thing and just
did a team upload instead. Julian mentioned common package maintenance
in how it's done in Ubuntu. What do you think about the /debian team and
would you want to promote the use of that as DPL?

3. DebConf

DebConf is great. I hate the process of getting a visa to travel (often
at least a whole day's worth of admin), and I don't like airports or
travel by plane (which is usually at least two days in each direction).
And yet, I sacrifice about 1% of my year just to get to DebConf, because
it's worth it.

Often though, I feel like DebConf can be better. My biggest wish is to
have more core Debian people there. Often, sessions are planned to
discuss really important and crucial things, but then we don't have the
key people present to really dig into it and bring it forward. At some
point I've wondered if we should invite-by-default certain members of
certain teams. Make it clear that there will be travel and accommodation
and food for them if they want to come. It might not be enough to
convince people with children or other commitments at home, but perhaps
it could help a little.

I digress, this isn't about my gripes with DebConf, it's about yours.
What do you think are the biggest problems with DebConf, and if you had
a magic wish or two as DPL to change things, what would that be?

4. Installation media

It's amazing how much Linux distributions offer in the variations of installation media (like ISO images) they provide.

For example, Ubuntu differentiates between a Desktop and Server
installation image. OpenSUSE too and they also have LEAP (a rolling
release) and some distributions also offer immutable install options. In
Debian we offer the netinst iso as the default from our home page, with
a link that leads to larger installation images, live images and cloud
images.

Do you have any opinion on the selection of images that we provide? Is
it optimal? Can we do better? Are there features that you would consider missing?

Not an essential question for a DPL candidate, but it's interesting to
know your thoughts on this and get more insight on how you think about
Debian.

5. Favourite colour

Ok, I lied, here's an easy question for you, what's your favourite colour?

I haven't even read all your platforms yet, so I'll probably post some
more pesky questions later on.

I hope you have fun during the campaign period!

-Jonathan

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(apologies if there's typos and stuff, I got cut a bit short in time
and I haven't tested my draft folder yet - time for my dad's bday
dinner :D)

On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 03:01:38PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

Dear candidates!

Firstly, thanks for stepping up for running for DPL.

Unfortunately, outside of maintaining my own packages I've had little Debian time for the last few months, so I'm not as up to date with all the Debian problems as I'd like to be.

But, lucky for you, there's enough difficult questions to go around! (sorry, you're all experienced DD's, so no low-ball questions here, take it as an opportunity!). Some of it is very specific and some more open-ended, answer as little or much as you like.

1. Community Team

How do you feel about the Community Team?

Is there something you would change?

Do you have any ideas in how to support them so that they can help our community better?

I have conflicting feelings about the community team. I think they are
doing a very important job, but they must also be careful not to let
themselves get weaponised by targeted hate campaigns.

I had my own conflict there last May when I had a particular poor choice
of words in the KeePassXC bug tracker and then got chased by an angry
mob for the next days on multiple channels. Some people enjoy destroying another person's life.

What was upsetting there, was that while we resolved the technical
aspects the same day pretty much, it took the community team 16 days
to get involved and send me an email about receiving complaints just
as I was about to forget about it and get some closure. Can we do
something about that? I don't know. The complaints may have been
going on all those weeks, and how to get all the information to them
without asking the accused party?

But anyway, personal anecdote aside, I think the more challenging
aspect for the community team is emotional damage. I think this
incident was comparatively mild to what else they have to deal with;
and it makes me wonder how we can support them emotionally.

I wouldn't want to leave a community team member on their own with
emotional damage from that work, if they need some counciling and
therapy.

Depending on where they are, getting help is almost impossible
because it can take months and calling hundreds of therapists
to find someone and then you need to potentially travel
for hours to them because nobody closer is available.

On the other hand there are therapy service providers that maybe
we could contract to provide support to the people doing these
critical jobs.

But frankly this is a topic where I'd need a better understanding of the emotional challenges and also the financial aspects.

2. VCS

Salsa has been stable for a number of years now, and git is clearly a good choice of default VCS (even though not perfect or preferred for all).

How do you feel about VCS requirements in Debian? Should it be required that Debian packages are maintained in Salsa? How do you feel about dgit and tag2upload?

Do you have any ideas about VCS use in Debian that you would promote as DPL?

I disagree with some of the technical choices in dgit, that shouldn't be
a particular surprise, given I filed bugs about it.

I do believe that every package in Debian should be in a git repository, auto-imported if needed, and that should be on equal footings in our expectations for maintainers to accepting patches in the BTS -
maintainers should participate in merge proposal workflows for
their packages and merge patches submitted that way.

I mentioned this in another email recently, Ubuntu has automatic git
imports of most of its packages, and treats merge requests in those
git repositories as equal or more recommended than debdiffs; and I
think this has tremendously improved quality of life, both in submitting changes as well as reviewing changes.

A while back someone told me that they want to NMU one of my packages. It
was maintained in /debian on salsa, so I reminded them that this is
basically collab-maint these days and they did the right thing and just did
a team upload instead. Julian mentioned common package maintenance in how it's done in Ubuntu. What do you think about the /debian team and would you want to promote the use of that as DPL?

I think I famously had a disagreement there where I don't think that the
debian teams implies low NMU or a team maintenance; but I may be the odd
duck out in that I am strongly attached to my packages (which for apt
makes a whole lot more sense than for dh-autoreconf...).

In any case while general team maintenance of that sort provides
opportunities to get stuff done, it - some of us in Ubuntu had a bit
of a discussion about that just this year I believe - also presents
significant challenges in that there is no strong sense of ownership
and responsibility.

3. DebConf

DebConf is great. I hate the process of getting a visa to travel (often at least a whole day's worth of admin), and I don't like airports or travel by plane (which is usually at least two days in each direction). And yet, I sacrifice about 1% of my year just to get to DebConf, because it's worth it.

Often though, I feel like DebConf can be better. My biggest wish is to have more core Debian people there. Often, sessions are planned to discuss really important and crucial things, but then we don't have the key people present to really dig into it and bring it forward. At some point I've wondered if
we should invite-by-default certain members of certain teams. Make it clear that there will be travel and accommodation and food for them if they want
to come. It might not be enough to convince people with children or other commitments at home, but perhaps it could help a little.

It's an interesting thought and I always wonder how to get DonKult to
a DebConf again to have an APT hackathon :D

I think that may have been a bit of an extreme issue in the last two
years because we had been in Asian countries, and core team members are
usually somewhat American and Eurocentric.

So I think you can approach this by making core teams more regionally
diverse, such that you have someone in each time who doesn't need to
fly around half the globe and can represent their team at that DebConf.

I digress, this isn't about my gripes with DebConf, it's about yours. What
do you think are the biggest problems with DebConf, and if you had a magic wish or two as DPL to change things, what would that be?

I'd love to see more team workshops and sprints, talks are a way to talk
mostly about what you have done but not a good tool for planning things
or getting work done which is where in-person meetings really excel at.

One thing I find challenging of at DebConf, and skipped the past 2 years
is the conference dinner. The one-off catering choices always result in
no decent food for vegans, and it can be quite loud and I can't have a conversation because I don't understand people anymore.

4. Installation media

It's amazing how much Linux distributions offer in the variations of installation media (like ISO images) they provide.

For example, Ubuntu differentiates between a Desktop and Server installation image. OpenSUSE too and they also have LEAP (a rolling release) and some distributions also offer immutable install options. In Debian we offer the netinst iso as the default from our home page, with a link that leads to larger installation images, live images and cloud images.

Do you have any opinion on the selection of images that we provide? Is it optimal? Can we do better? Are there features that you would consider missing?

Not an essential question for a DPL candidate, but it's interesting to know your thoughts on this and get more insight on how you think about Debian.

I think having separate install media for separate use cases is good;
and I'm not a huge fan of the way we produce pool media that if you
apt-cdrom add them, there is no validation as they're not signed;
so my preference generally is install media for bootstrapping new
systems from fixed images or layers of images, rather than debs;
that also should be significantly faster.

I would _love_ to have an official Debian version with an immutable base
system and containerised apps. On that note, I'd also like to get the
hybrid approach SUSE takes where you install to btrfs and then you
upgrade the snapshots instead of the live system; this way you get all
the flexibility of individual packages but also the reliability of
image-based upgrades: if the upgrade fails half-way through, you just
discard the broken snapshot. If it fails to boot, just revert to the old
one, etc.

5. Favourite colour

Ok, I lied, here's an easy question for you, what's your favourite colour?

I feel like this is the second hardest question ofthe 5 :D

Back when I was a child I believed red was my favourite colour. These
days I am not sure I have one, to be honest.

Some things just have iconic colors. Like if I bought a Ferrari, it
would be red. If I bought a Bianchi bicycle, it would be Celeste. A
Pinarello, red. Crazy how this goes. I do quite like white bikes,
though.

My clothes are very muted in color choices. With the jeans comes a lot
of blue, and on practical terms while I like black it also looks bad
to soon.

But you know I also have very aggressive yellow colored t-shirts and
a lot of crazy neon cycling kit.

Sometimes in summer, I just like to break my norms and wear extremely
colorful things. Sometimes I wear pink armband to also break gender expectations lol.
--
debian developer - deb.li/jak | jak-linux.org - free software dev
ubuntu core developer i speak de, en

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Dear Jonathan,

I'm continuing with your next set of questions for the topic VCS.
You can find my answer about the Community team question here[1].

2. VCS

Salsa has been stable for a number of years now, and git is clearly a good choice of default VCS (even though not perfect or preferred for all).

How do you feel about VCS requirements in Debian? Should it be required that Debian packages are maintained in Salsa?

It should be required that Debian packages are maintained in VCS (which
these days is synonymous with Git) and hosted on a unified development platform. Currently, that platform is Salsa (formerly we had Alioth with
the restrictions that made us move away), and if someone develops an alternative that addresses the concerns raised about our GitLab
instance, I'd be open to considering it. But for now, our goal should be
to host all packages on Salsa since this has proven to be fine in
production.

If you ask whether this can realistically be accomplished within the
next DPL term, my answer is a clear no. I am well aware of the
discussions and the objections raised against this plan. However, I
believe the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. These include easier collaboration, especially for newcomers, better tooling for large-scale
package changes, greater consistency across Debian packaging, and CI
testing.

For now, I will focus on migrating packages that remain outside Salsa
_for_ _no_ _good_ _reason_-for instance, cases where the maintainer is inactive, and nobody truly cares. Last year I used some UDD query[2]

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT count(*) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and vcs_url not like '%salsa%' ;
2368


At that time, I stated that I would like to reduce the latter number
below 2000. As of today, it stands at 1653. However, it was later
discussed [3] that the old query was incorrect. I have proposed a new
query [4] that should accurately identify all affected packages:


udd=> SELECT COUNT(DISTINCT source) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' AND
(vcs_url IS NULL OR vcs_url like '%alioth.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%git.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%svn.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%anonscm.debian.org%') ;
count
-------
2509

At the time of writing this query to the list 2025-01-08 this number
was 2930. So something happened in the last 2.5 months and I intend
to continue with this.

I want to repeat what I stated very clearly last year: If you do not
believe that all Debian packages should be maintained on a common
Git-based platform, then you should not vote for me. I will not achieve
this transition within a single year, but I am committed to paving the
way toward it.

How do you feel about dgit

As long as dgit is seen as just another interface (like gbp), I'm
perfectly fine with it. Ultimately, the choice depends on your workflow.
While I personally use gbp, I've seen dgit in action with Salsa, and if
it fits the needs of others, that's great.

and tag2upload?

From my perspective, tag2upload offers a modern alternative to the over-30-year-old method we currently use to upload packages. While my

current workflow doesn't present any issues that tag2upload might
address-and thus I haven't felt a need to use it myself-I see it as a
positive step towards modernization. I consider tag2upload part of
Debian's ongoing efforts to enhance our processes, and I'm interested to
see where it takes us. Finally, it may serve as a stepping stone on the
path I intend to pave towards unified Git-based workflows across Debian.

Do you have any ideas about VCS use in Debian that you would promote as DPL?

I basically answered this question above, but to reiterate: My strategy
as DPL is to join forces with other DDs to move packages to Salsa that
have been somehow "forgotten." Many packages that do not have their Vcs
fields set to Salsa are even hosted there, but they have not been
uploaded by the team maintaining them with updated Vcs fields. I believe
this is an easily solvable problem within one additional year. During
the Bug of the Day effort, I encountered many cases where not being
maintained on Salsa was a minor issue compared to other QA problems. In
the responses I received from the maintainers of these packages, the
vast majority were positive.

A while back someone told me that they want to NMU one of my packages. It
was maintained in /debian on salsa, so I reminded them that this is
basically collab-maint these days and they did the right thing and just did
a team upload instead. Julian mentioned common package maintenance in how it's done in Ubuntu. What do you think about the /debian team and would you want to promote the use of that as DPL?

I think the /debian team is a great idea, and I actively use it. As DPL,
I fully promote its use. Thank you for pointing this out.

Kind regards
Andreas.


[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2025/03/msg00047.html
[2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2024/03/msg00057.html
[3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/01/msg00078.html
[4] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2025/01/msg00128.html

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Dear Jonathan,

Am Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 03:01:38PM +0200 schrieb Jonathan Carter:

Firstly, thanks for stepping up for running for DPL.

Says someone who's been serving for four terms in a row. ;-)
(And I'd like to take this chance to thank you for that as well.)

Thank you for your many questions. I believe they can be better
addressed in separate threads, so I’ve split my responses accordingly by adding the topic to the subject line.

I hope this works for you.

1. Community Team

How do you feel about the Community Team?

We have agreed on a Code of Conduct, which, in my opinion, is essential
for large communities. It defines rules, and whenever rules exist,
someone must ensure they are upheld. This is similar to referees in a
soccer game. Like referees, our Community Team members are human and
therefore not perfect. However, I am absolutely convinced that things
will not work unless players are reminded of the rules.

From my past experience as a DD and DPL, I consider the Community Team

to be a highly valuable part of Debian. As our community grows, it
becomes essential to ensure that members remain aligned with our shared
values, and the Community Team plays a crucial role in this. I highly appreciate their work and dedication. If I knew of a better solution, I
would certainly share it, but for now, I believe the Community Team's
approach is vital for our continued success.

Is there something you would change?

Do you have any ideas in how to support them so that they can help our community better?

I'd like to address both questions together, as I see them as closely
related. As with any volunteer, community members in Debian often face real-life constraints that can interfere with their volunteer work. Additionally, many of them may encounter challenges they didn't expect
when they first joined Debian. This can lead to burnout, especially for
those in the Community Team, who are giving their time selflessly.

We must not take our volunteers for granted. They might face challenges
that can lead to burnout. It is essential that we offer them the support
and appreciation they need to continue their valuable work for our
project without sacrificing their well-being.

As I mentioned in my email about Debian funds[1], I'm deeply convinced
that we should reach out to non-IT professionals who might bring their
specific skills to Debian in ways that we might not have considered. In
the specific case of the Community Team, this could help provide a
fresh, IT-neutral perspective. So, if you ask me what I would like to
change: consider involving non-uploading DDs with specific roles in the Community Team, to help address the challenges I mentioned above.

I hope you have fun during the campaign period!

Looks like fun thanks to your questions. ;-)

Kind regards
Andreas.


[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2025/03/msg00042.html

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https://fam-tille.de

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Dear Jonathan,

Am Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 03:01:38PM +0200 schrieb Jonathan Carter:

3. DebConf

DebConf is great. I hate the process of getting a visa to travel (often at least a whole day's worth of admin), and I don't like airports or travel by plane (which is usually at least two days in each direction). And yet, I sacrifice about 1% of my year just to get to DebConf, because it's worth it.

Thanks you for putting it in these words which I can't do better.

Often though, I feel like DebConf can be better. My biggest wish is to have more core Debian people there. Often, sessions are planned to discuss really important and crucial things, but then we don't have the key people present to really dig into it and bring it forward. At some point I've wondered if
we should invite-by-default certain members of certain teams. Make it clear that there will be travel and accommodation and food for them if they want
to come. It might not be enough to convince people with children or other commitments at home, but perhaps it could help a little.

I completely understand what you mean. In an ideal world, we could bring
all relevant people together in one room, make decisions, and implement
them seamlessly. If you're asking whether I have an idea on how to get
closer to that ideal within a volunteer project-honestly, I don't.
However, I'm very open to discussing potential approaches.

I digress, this isn't about my gripes with DebConf, it's about yours. What
do you think are the biggest problems with DebConf, and if you had a magic wish or two as DPL to change things, what would that be?

If I had a magic wish, I'd use it to bring all the key people into one room-ideally without internet distractions-to focus on urgent issues.
But since I don't believe in magic, I know this isn't realistic.

To focus on realistic goals: I'd love for more sponsors to recognize the
value of our yearly conference and local MiniDebConfs, enabling us to
reach more underrepresented groups in Debian. We could likely improve in finding additional support. Ideally, I'd like to lower the threshold for accepting promising contributors, rather than being constrained by
financial limitations.

See you at DebConf
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Dear Jonathan,

this is my last chunk of answers where I'm basically bundling question
topic 4. and 5.

Am Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 03:01:38PM +0200 schrieb Jonathan Carter:

4. Installation media

It's amazing how much Linux distributions offer in the variations of installation media (like ISO images) they provide.

For example, Ubuntu differentiates between a Desktop and Server installation image. OpenSUSE too and they also have LEAP (a rolling release) and some distributions also offer immutable install options. In Debian we offer the netinst iso as the default from our home page, with a link that leads to larger installation images, live images and cloud images.

Do you have any opinion on the selection of images that we provide? Is it optimal? Can we do better?

I admit I don't have a strong opinion on this. What matters most is that
our images work flawlessly and are easy to use. I often point to my own experience: I once installed Debian in a language I don't understand (Vietnamese) and succeeded without issues-this is my usual response to
those who claim Debian is hard to install. In short, I trust the experts
who have consistently done a great job.

Are there features that you would consider
missing?

I've been wishing for the ability to install and advertise Blends for
the last 25 years. It looks like with Trixi, this will finally happen,
and that's great news for me! It's another example of how "good things
come to those who wait."

That said, while I'm really happy with the progress, this has nothing to
do at all with my current DPL position. As always, it takes a dedicated volunteer to implement such feature.

5. Favourite colour

Ok, I lied, here's an easy question for you, what's your favourite colour?

Well, that's not an easy question at all, especially after watching this
video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0jXfwPQW9k

My answer is probably: It's a colour I have no name for and thus can't
truly see. I would have loved to share a similar video in English or
find a sensible translation. It's one of the most mind-boggling videos
I've ever watched.

I haven't even read all your platforms yet, so I'll probably post some more pesky questions later on.

Happy to answer more questions.

I hope you have fun during the campaign period!

Thank you, your questions were part of the fun.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Andreas Tille writes ("VCS (Was: Questions for all candidates)"):

Dear Jonathan,

How do you feel about dgit

As long as dgit is seen as just another interface (like gbp), I'm
perfectly fine with it. Ultimately, the choice depends on your workflow. While I personally use gbp, I've seen dgit in action with Salsa, and if
it fits the needs of others, that's great.

I just wanted to address a confusion evident in Andreas's reply.

Adopting dgit doesn't change the way a maintainer edits their package.

dgit is in no way an *alternative* to gbp. gbp users can use dgit
and will probably find it improves their lives.

If you're using gbp, uploading with dgit is an improvement and
simplification *of the upload step*. You start directly from the gbp
main branch, say `dgit push-source --gbp`, and poof! it's done.
You can forget whatever upload runes you have in your shell history.

On this "plug" topic, just earlier today, a happy user wrote to us:

| Btw, I wish I had looked at dgit earlier,

Ian.

--
Ian Jackson <[email protected]> These opinions are my own.

Pronouns: they/he. If I emailed you from @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk,
that is a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hello, again

How do you feel about VCS requirements in Debian? Should it be required
that Debian packages are maintained in Salsa? How do you feel about dgit
and tag2upload?

when I speak about my love for git, I forget everything else (also typos, please excuse them)

I think, all the packages without a git repo, should have some automatic import of the git somewhere

(e.g. git import-dscs taking data from snapshots).

Even if people don't want to use git, having a browseable automatic git repo is useful for other people.

G.

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Gianfranco Costamagna dijo [Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 08:24:02AM +0000]:

(...)

3. DebConf
(...)
I digress, this isn't about my gripes with DebConf, it's about yours.
What do you think are the biggest problems with DebConf, and if you had
a magic wish or two as DPL to change things, what would that be?

I support this idea, for reasons I couldn't attend any DebConf yet, but I plan to
start attending them in the future.
One idea (probably bad I know), might be to consider shifting the time of the DebConf
by some days every year, to allow people have higher chances to attend if they >coudln't have vacation period in august.

Not sure if this is a good idea or not, but might be worth a discussion

As a long-time DebConf organizer and current member of the DebConf Committee: The reason DebConf usually takes place in July/August is that it's the spot our local organizers can usually find availability in the venues that host us (that are often universities, so it makes sense to be there while they are on vacation).

Of course, we have had conferences a bit later in the year (Kochi, India, for DC23, was in September due to weather concerns, and if the Japanese team presents their bid for DC27, it's very likely it will be in September as well for the same reason). But this is more due to what the localteam suggests as viable than to something we global organizers push for centrally.

Anyway, I hope for the opportunity to meet you in person at a future DebConf! 🙂

– Gunnar.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hello,

As a long-time DebConf organizer and current member of the DebConf Committee: >The reason DebConf usually takes place in July/August is that it's the spot our
local organizers can usually find availability in the venues that host us (that
are often universities, so it makes sense to be there while they are on >vacation).

indeed, I was fearing something related to availability of spaces, thanks for confirming.

maybe also December can be a good month for this, w.r.t. universities, but I'm pretty sure
you already considered all the possibilities.

That said, thanks a lot for the detailed answer, I'm sure other people will also appreciate it,
and I really look forward to meet you all! :)

Gianfranco

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Matthias Urlichs dijo [Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 05:28:39PM +0100]:

On 21.03.25 16:32, Gianfranco Costamagna wrote:

maybe also December can be a good month for this

The problem with December is that lots of people have to contend with
some version of end-of-year craze at their workplace (*) *and*
preparing for their version of Winter Solstice Festivities (aka >"christmas"), both of which often preclude taking two weeks off for
Debconf at that time.

Some of us are even used to having December happen concurrent with our Summer solstices. Heck, I know I'm not even the only DD with this worldview — It's been
several years I haven't had a Winter solstice; December is usually my *second* Summer solstice of the year 😉

(but yes, I agree with you 😉 December would be a logistical mess to host a conference in, and many people would prefer to skip it and be with their families)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 05:28:39PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

The problem with December is that lots of people have to contend with
some version of end-of-year craze at their workplace (*) *and*
preparing for their version of Winter Solstice Festivities (aka
"christmas"), both of which often preclude taking two weeks off for
Debconf at that time.

And Europe is also preparing for Chaos Communication Congress, which is
about twenty times the size of a big Debconf.

Greetings
Marc

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Le Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 10:44:03AM +0100, Andreas Tille a �crit :

_for_ _no_ _good_ _reason_-for instance, cases where the maintainer is inactive, and nobody truly cares. Last year I used some UDD query[2]

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT count(*) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and vcs_url not like '%salsa%' ;
2368

At that time, I stated that I would like to reduce the latter number
below 2000. As of today, it stands at 1653. However, it was later
discussed [3] that the old query was incorrect. I have proposed a new
query [4] that should accurately identify all affected packages:

udd=> SELECT COUNT(DISTINCT source) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' AND
(vcs_url IS NULL OR vcs_url like '%alioth.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%git.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%svn.debian.org%' OR vcs_url like '%anonscm.debian.org%') ;
count
-------
2509

At the time of writing this query to the list 2025-01-08 this number
was 2930. So something happened in the last 2.5 months and I intend
to continue with this.

Note that this request does not check that the Salsa repository actually includes the version of the package that is in the archive, so it is
probably overcounting.

Cheers,
Bill.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 17543 March 1977, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

The problem with December is that lots of people have to contend
with some version of end-of-year craze at their workplace (*) *and*
preparing for their version of Winter Solstice Festivities (aka
"christmas"), both of which often preclude taking two weeks off for
Debconf at that time.

Some of us are even used to having December happen concurrent with
our Summer

solstices. Heck, I know I'm not even the only DD with this worldview — It's been

Just to ensure there is no confusion for the readers of this mail and especially our DPL candidates: You are not a DD.

--
bye, Joerg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 17547 March 1977, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

I see that my email client wrapped Gunnar's sentence to multiple
lines, and I inserted a ">" only at the beginning of the sentence, so
the lines after the first indeed appear unquoted. I would have thought
it was clear enough that those lines were the continuation of the
previous line (honestly, I didn't even think about that), but it seems
it wasn't. I'm sorry if that confused you.

The hard line break at that point and NOT continuing the > for the other
lines does make it easy to confuse, yes.

All good then.

--
bye, Joerg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 28/03/25 9:33 pm, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

I didn't realize it was a hard break. My fault.

In fact, thinking more about it, the hard break wasn't inserted by
Gmail, but by me copying and pasting from the web interface, because
I'm not suscribed to -vote and I read it there (that's also why I
can't set In-Reply-To correctly unless I'm actually replying to an
email that was sent to me, I've never found how to add it manually in
Gmail). When I reply to an actual email, my quoting style works
because there are no hard breaks within sentences. I didn't realize
that this case was different.

Just use a proper mail client where you can set that. It works reasonably
well with (neo)mutt.

You are pretty much breaking all the threads wherever you reply to.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Copy: [email protected] (Nilesh Patra)

On Saturday, March 29, 2025 2:34:35 AM Mountain Standard Time Nilesh
Patra wrote:

On 28/03/25 9:33 pm, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

I didn't realize it was a hard break. My fault.

In fact, thinking more about it, the hard break wasn't inserted by
Gmail, but by me copying and pasting from the web interface,
because I'm not suscribed to -vote and I read it there (that's
also why I can't set In-Reply-To correctly unless I'm actually
replying to an email that was sent to me, I've never found how to
add it manually in Gmail). When I reply to an actual email, my
quoting style works because there are no hard breaks within
sentences. I didn't realize that this case was different.

Just use a proper mail client where you can set that. It works
reasonably well with (neo)mutt.

You are pretty much breaking all the threads wherever you reply to.

Notice how beautifully this problem would be solved if we no longer
had hard breaks at 80 columns. ;)

Debian needs to live in a world where people are not reprimanded for
using common webmail clients.

--
Soren Stoutner
[email protected]
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 29/03/25 9:13 pm, Soren Stoutner wrote:

On Saturday, March 29, 2025 2:34:35 AM Mountain Standard Time Nilesh
Patra wrote:

On 28/03/25 9:33 pm, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

I didn't realize it was a hard break. My fault.

In fact, thinking more about it, the hard break wasn't inserted by
Gmail, but by me copying and pasting from the web interface,
because I'm not suscribed to -vote and I read it there (that's
also why I can't set In-Reply-To correctly unless I'm actually
replying to an email that was sent to me, I've never found how to
add it manually in Gmail). When I reply to an actual email, my
quoting style works because there are no hard breaks within
sentences. I didn't realize that this case was different.

Just use a proper mail client where you can set that. It works
reasonably well with (neo)mutt.

You are pretty much breaking all the threads wherever you reply to.

Notice how beautifully this problem would be solved if we no longer
had hard breaks at 80 columns. ;)

Please explain how?

I fail to see the relation between 80 line hard breaks and In-Reply-To mail header.

Debian needs to live in a world where people are not reprimanded for
using common webmail clients.

I am definitely not reprimanding anyone. Just suggesting a way to fixup headers since their webmail does not support it.

Or, simply subscribe to the mailing list for sometime. Use use something like GMANE.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Saturday, March 29, 2025 8:57:24 AM Mountain Standard Time Nilesh
Patra wrote:

On 29/03/25 9:13 pm, Soren Stoutner wrote:

On Saturday, March 29, 2025 2:34:35 AM Mountain Standard Time
Nilesh>
Patra wrote:

On 28/03/25 9:33 pm, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

I didn't realize it was a hard break. My fault.

In fact, thinking more about it, the hard break wasn't inserted
by
Gmail, but by me copying and pasting from the web interface,
because I'm not suscribed to -vote and I read it there (that's
also why I can't set In-Reply-To correctly unless I'm actually
replying to an email that was sent to me, I've never found how
to
add it manually in Gmail). When I reply to an actual email, my
quoting style works because there are no hard breaks within
sentences. I didn't realize that this case was different.

Just use a proper mail client where you can set that. It works
reasonably well with (neo)mutt.

You are pretty much breaking all the threads wherever you reply
to.

Notice how beautifully this problem would be solved if we no
longer
had hard breaks at 80 columns. ;)

Please explain how?

I apologize, I was not responding to the discussion about reply
headers, but to the discussion about how copying the hard line breaks
from the web interface to the email client caused it to mangle the
quoted text in such a way that it appeared that Gerardo had said
something he didn’t.

It is not uncommon for people to want to engage in discussions on
mailing lists that they are not subscribed to, the only way I can
think to do so being to respond to text from the web interface of the
mailing lists. Not hard wrapping that text makes this easier, as this
thread demonstrates.

To the specific question of the reply-to headers, Kmail is capable of correctly threading Gerardo’s messages even though the header is not
set. I haven’t looked into what information Kmail is using to do so,
but perhaps you might want to submit a feature request to (neo)mutt to implement similar logic.

--
Soren Stoutner
[email protected]
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