Hi all,

With the enthusiasm of package submitters/maintainers and the increased support of Debian Maintainers and Debian Developers, the number of packages on Mentors is at a manageable level. For this I thank everyone involved and I hope we can get better in the future.

I propose now we add a new test to the tests currently run against packages.

ratt:

* https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/ratt
* https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/ratt/ratt.1.en.html

ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of a just-
built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds them with the .debs from the .changes file.

The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a Go library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these it will be a 'N/A' result.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Phil

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Copy: [email protected]

Hello,

let me start thanking you for your work weeding the RFS bugs, it has been really really useful.

I've become a DD in the end of 2023 so it's still fresh in my mind the frustration of getting something sponsored :D

The description of ratt only mentions go, does it work/is it useful for other languages as well?

And can your infrastructure support it?

In the python team it has happened to me that an upload breaks other stuff, and then I have to find out after the fact what got broken and also fix the other things. In general breaking other stuff isn't an argument against uploading per se, but indicates that more uploads become needed, so while a good test in general, I think there might be exceptions to the rule.

--
Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Le 2025-01-22 21:15, Phil Wyett a écrit :

ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of
a just-
built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds
them with
the .debs from the .changes file.

The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a
Go
library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these
it will
be a 'N/A' result.

Java libraries are architecture:all, and some updates are breaking
builds (typical causes are that some artifact got renamed, that a
deprecated API got finally removed, or sometimes plain old API/ABI incompatibilities). Why should they not need this?

The issue I have with that new test (and also with autopkgtests to some
extent) is that the so-called "regressions" are automatically attributed
to the updated package. This is fair as long as the update is expected
not to break things, and while some upstream projects are reasonably conservative in their attempts to keep things compatible, for some
others it's clearly not among their priorities.

Also some packages may have many reverse dependencies, and some that are
fairly heavy to build and test. Expect a few cases to need several hours
to complete the rebuilds on a dedicated system.

But I think it's a good thing to know in advance which packages (if any)
are going to be broken by an update, and to notify their maintainers as
a courtesy, eventually telling them what they are expected to update.

Cheers,

--
Julien Plissonneau Duquène

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 00:41 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Hello,

let me start thanking you for your work weeding the RFS bugs, it has been really really useful.

I've become a DD in the end of 2023 so it's still fresh in my mind the frustration of getting something sponsored :D

The description of ratt only mentions go, does it work/is it useful for other languages as well?

And can your infrastructure support it?

In the python team it has happened to me that an upload breaks other stuff, and
then I have to find out after the fact what got broken and also fix the other things. In general breaking other stuff isn't an argument against uploading per
se, but indicates that more uploads become needed, so while a good test in general, I think there might be exceptions to the rule.

Hi Salvo,

Many thanks for your kind words. I do my little bit like yourself and others for the better Debian we strive to deliver to users.

Yes, the description is a bit Go centric, but it is useful for other arch dependant packages. A little more information is available in the 'README.md' in its Salsa repo, see link below.

https://salsa.debian.org/go-team/packages/ratt

I hope having this test leads to feedback to the 'ratt' package and improve it for all. I think the use of 'licenserecon - lrc' has led to increased user usage and useful feedback to that package and I hope the same for 'ratt'.

My infrastructure is primarily two laptops.

* Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
* RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB
Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

Regards

Phil

--

Donations...

Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

--

"I play the game for the game’s own sake"

Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

--

Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas

Website: https://kathenas.org

Instagram: https://instagram.com/kathenasorg

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:

The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

I’m very sorry to hear that, but I am glad you are doing positive things with your time even
though you have to deal with significant pain.

As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good
bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

I applaud your efforts.

--
Soren Stoutner
[email protected]

--nextPart2382556.n0HT0TaD9V
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and</p>
<

Hello,

* Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
* RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB
Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

That is certainly more than what I have at home. I hope it can handle it. Otherwise you are completely free to revert of course.

The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the
base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my
pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

I'm really sorry to hear this.

I'm disabled myself, though of course completely different circumstances and situation than you.

As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

It seems I have no objections then.

--
Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 08:15:43PM +0000, Phil Wyett wrote:

ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of a just-
built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds them with
the .debs from the .changes file.

The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a Go library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these it will
be a 'N/A' result.

Why?

Your thoughts?

It's nice to do, but it can take arbitratily long time because some
packages have lots of revdeps.


--
WBR, wRAR

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 19:27 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Hello,

* Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
* RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB   Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

That is certainly more than what I have at home. I hope it can handle it. Otherwise you are completely free to revert of course.

The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

I'm really sorry to hear this.

I'm disabled myself, though of course completely different circumstances and situation than you.

As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

It seems I have no objections then.

Hi Salvo,

You have difficulties also and I commend you for your work here in Mentors and elsewhere in Debian.

Cool. I am not going to going mad with the ratt testing. Hopefully it can assist on occasion only.

Regards

Phil

--

Donations...

Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

--

"I play the game for the game’s own sake"

Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

--

Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas

Website: https://kathenas.org

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On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 11:02 -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:

On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:

The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base
and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

I’m very sorry to hear that, but I am glad you are doing positive things with
your time even though you have to deal with significant pain.
 

As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good
bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

I applaud your efforts.

--
Soren Stoutner
[email protected]

Hi Soren,

Debian is a great place to give time. Debian offers fun, thinking, learning, community and diversity that is good for any person; and you get a great OS as pert of the deal.

Many thanks Soren.

Regards

Phil

--

Donations...

Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

--

"I play the game for the game’s own sake"

Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

--

Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas

Website: https://kathenas.org

Instagram: https://instagram.com/kathenasorg

Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kathenasorg

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On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 09:25:12 +0100, Julien Plissonneau Duqu�ne wrote:

Le 2025-01-22 21:15, Phil Wyett a �crit�:

ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these
it will
be a 'N/A' result.

Java libraries are architecture:all, and some updates are breaking builds (typical causes are that some artifact got renamed, that a deprecated API
got finally removed, or sometimes plain old API/ABI incompatibilities). Why should they not need this?

Same for perl arch:all packages.


Cheers,
gregor

--
.''`. https://info.comodo.priv.at -- Debian Developer https://www.debian.org
: :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D 85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06
`. `' Member VIBE!AT & SPI Inc. -- Supporter Free Software Foundation Europe
`-

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