Hi,

I was stumbled on Söhne font collection, primarily due to ChatGPT
uses it for its web interface. I'd like to also use it for hypothetical
web app (let's name it foodb) to be packaged in Debian (due to design constraints). However, in order to acquire the font, I have to buy it [1]
(buy its license). Can the font be included in Debian package of foodb
(or as separate package), or is it non-free?

Thanks.

[1]: https://klim.co.nz/buy/soehne/

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

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On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 01:19:48PM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

Hi,

I was stumbled on S�hne font collection, primarily due to ChatGPT
uses it for its web interface. I'd like to also use it for hypothetical
web app (let's name it foodb) to be packaged in Debian (due to design constraints). However, in order to acquire the font, I have to buy it [1] (buy its license). Can the font be included in Debian package of foodb
(or as separate package), or is it non-free?

This would be permanently non-free because it couldn't be distributed
without individuals purchasing the fonts. Please consider using free
fonts that already exist within Debian / could be freely packaged and distributed.

Andy Cater

Thanks.

[1]: https://klim.co.nz/buy/soehne/

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

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On 6/11/23 16:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 01:19:48PM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

Hi,

I was stumbled on Söhne font collection, primarily due to ChatGPT
uses it for its web interface. I'd like to also use it for hypothetical
web app (let's name it foodb) to be packaged in Debian (due to design
constraints). However, in order to acquire the font, I have to buy it [1]
(buy its license). Can the font be included in Debian package of foodb
(or as separate package), or is it non-free?

This would be permanently non-free because it couldn't be distributed
without individuals purchasing the fonts. Please consider using free
fonts that already exist within Debian / could be freely packaged and distributed.

Hi Andy, thanks for the answer.

Several questions remain:

* The foodb upstream has already bought the font license (in case
of Söhne, he bought desktop and web license). If I as Debian packager
wants to also distribute Söhne for the sake of foodb (under license
in the name of Debian), at least both licenses and OEM license must
also be purchased, IMO. Is both all licenses acceptable?

* With Debian distributing this commercial font, there is a "pirating"
loophole that someone else can extract the font files and distributing
them freely on various sites (including torrent and shady ones) with
Debian licensee attached. What do you think?

* Supposed that the foodb upstream refuses to change the font choice
(and insists on Söhne) due to his preference when I request the
change after reading this fact. What can I do about it?

Thanks.

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

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Hi Bagas

On 2023/06/11 12:22, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

Several questions remain:

* The foodb upstream has already bought the font license (in case
of Söhne, he bought desktop and web license). If I as Debian packager
wants to also distribute Söhne for the sake of foodb (under license
in the name of Debian), at least both licenses and OEM license must
also be purchased, IMO. Is both all licenses acceptable?

You haven't actually shared the license text in question, so very
specific answers isn't possible.

* With Debian distributing this commercial font, there is a "pirating"
loophole that someone else can extract the font files and distributing
them freely on various sites (including torrent and shady ones) with
Debian licensee attached. What do you think?

To be included in Debian, it has to conform with the Debian Free
Software Guidelines:
https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

Licensing conditions like you describe above would be against DFSG#8.

* Supposed that the foodb upstream refuses to change the font choice
(and insists on Söhne) due to his preference when I request the
change after reading this fact. What can I do about it?

Your top options are probably:

* You can choose not to package it,
* Supply a patch in the packaging that makes it
use another font or
* Host it in an external archive outside of Debian.

-Jonathan

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On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 05:22:17PM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

On 6/11/23 16:37, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 01:19:48PM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

Hi,

I was stumbled on S�hne font collection, primarily due to ChatGPT
uses it for its web interface. I'd like to also use it for hypothetical
web app (let's name it foodb) to be packaged in Debian (due to design
constraints). However, in order to acquire the font, I have to buy it [1] >> (buy its license). Can the font be included in Debian package of foodb
(or as separate package), or is it non-free?

This would be permanently non-free because it couldn't be distributed without individuals purchasing the fonts. Please consider using free
fonts that already exist within Debian / could be freely packaged and distributed.

Hi Andy, thanks for the answer.

Several questions remain:

* The foodb upstream has already bought the font license (in case
of S�hne, he bought desktop and web license). If I as Debian packager
wants to also distribute S�hne for the sake of foodb (under license
in the name of Debian), at least both licenses and OEM license must
also be purchased, IMO. Is both all licenses acceptable?

That's a licence personal to him: you can't rely on it. The best thing to
do is to patch foodb and substitute a free font.

* With Debian distributing this commercial font, there is a "pirating"
loophole that someone else can extract the font files and distributing
them freely on various sites (including torrent and shady ones) with
Debian licensee attached. What do you think?

This is *precisely* why the Debian Free Software Guidelines exist https://wiki.debian.org/DebianFreeSoftwareGuidelines

* Supposed that the foodb upstream refuses to change the font choice
(and insists on S�hne) due to his preference when I request the
change after reading this fact. What can I do about it?

He doesn't have to change his preferences: if his code is free and you
are free to modify it for your preferences, *you* modify it.

Thanks.

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater

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Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Carter said:

* The foodb upstream has already bought the font license (in case
of Söhne, he bought desktop and web license). If I as Debian packager
wants to also distribute Söhne for the sake of foodb (under license
in the name of Debian), at least both licenses and OEM license must
also be purchased, IMO. Is both all licenses acceptable?

You haven't actually shared the license text in question, so very specific answers isn't possible.

You haven't tried buying the font from the link at the start of this thread (and I'm not, either, because I don't have required bucks).

* With Debian distributing this commercial font, there is a "pirating"
loophole that someone else can extract the font files and distributing
them freely on various sites (including torrent and shady ones) with
Debian licensee attached. What do you think?

To be included in Debian, it has to conform with the Debian Free Software Guidelines:

https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

Licensing conditions like you describe above would be against DFSG#8.

OK, thanks for the explanation (albeit a rather confusing to me).

For the background: The foodb upstream uses non-free (commercial) Söhne font, for which the upstream has bought and acquired appropriate licenses for
the package purpose, and I was about to package it for Debian including
the font. He probably chooses Söhne because there is no suitable free fonts that provide the same or similar typographical features as Söhne do (and partly due to ChatGPT influence). Hence, I was asked if the font can be distributed in Debian, since I had not found similar thread in debian-legal list.

* Supposed that the foodb upstream refuses to change the font choice
(and insists on Söhne) due to his preference when I request the
change after reading this fact. What can I do about it?

<snipped>...
* Host it in an external archive outside of Debian.

If I prefer to have foodb Debian package keep using non-DFSG-free Söhne,
do you mean I have to host the font on my server (and with my license)?

Thanks.

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

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On 2023/06/11 15:37, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

If I prefer to have foodb Debian package keep using non-DFSG-free Söhne,
do you mean I have to host the font on my server (and with my license)?

I meant that you won't be able to include it in Debian at all using the non-free font. If you want to include the non-free font, or download it
at runtime, then you can still host the package on your own
infrastructure outside of Debian, if the font license permits that kind
of redistribution.

-Jonathan

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On 6/11/23 21:13, Jonathan Carter wrote:

On 2023/06/11 15:37, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

If I prefer to have foodb Debian package keep using non-DFSG-free Söhne,
do you mean I have to host the font on my server (and with my license)?

I meant that you won't be able to include it in Debian at all using the non-free font. If you want to include the non-free font, or download it at runtime, then you can still host the package on your own infrastructure outside of Debian, if the font

license permits that kind of redistribution.


OK, thanks!

--
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

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Dear Bagas,

I thought Klim Type Foundry had really lost it until I realised that an error in
their website made my browser replace all their 'Helvetica-inspired' fonts with Bitstream Vera Serif!

On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 08:37:06PM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:

For the background: The foodb upstream uses non-free (commercial) S�hne font, for which the upstream has bought and acquired appropriate licenses for the package purpose, and I was about to package it for Debian including the
font. He probably chooses S�hne because there is no suitable free fonts that provide the same or similar typographical features as S�hne do (and partly due
to ChatGPT influence). Hence, I was asked if the font can be distributed in Debian, since I had not found similar thread in debian-legal list.

I've had a look at the S�hne specimens to see if I can find a free typeface with
similar features. S�hne is definitely unique; I think the closest I've found is Nimbus Sans L Regular. It looks pretty similar to S�hne's lower weights, including the distinctive right-facing terminal of the 'a'. However, it's not such a good match at heavier weights, where I would say S�hne looks more 'friendly'.

Hope this helps!

Best wishes,

Sebastian

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