This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------RY0SoNxoWX3JuIf4Jr5MvLiE
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Hello,

I was wondering if the Apple Public Source License (version 2.0)
complies with the DFSG. The Free Software Foundation considers it to be
a free software license (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.en.html),
but I just wanted to make sure it's compatible with the DFSG. Below is
the full text of the license.

Thanks,
--
Ben Westover

APPLE PUBLIC SOURCE LICENSE
Version 2.0 - August 6, 2003

Please read this License carefully before downloading this software.
By downloading or using this software, you are agreeing to be bound by
the terms of this License. If you do not or cannot agree to the terms
of this License, please do not download or use the software.

1. General; Definitions. This License applies to any program or other
work which Apple Computer, Inc. ("Apple") makes publicly available and
which contains a notice placed by Apple identifying such program or
work as "Original Code" and stating that it is subject to the terms of
this Apple Public Source License version 2.0 ("License"). As used in
this License:

1.1 "Applicable Patent Rights" mean: (a) in the case where Apple is
the grantor of rights, (i) claims of patents that are now or hereafter acquired, owned by or assigned to Apple and (ii) that cover subject
matter contained in the Original Code, but only to the extent
necessary to use, reproduce and/or distribute the Original Code
without infringement; and (b) in the case where You are the grantor of
rights, (i) claims of patents that are now or hereafter acquired,
owned by or assigned to You and (ii) that cover subject matter in Your Modifications, taken alone or in combination with Original Code.

1.2 "Contributor" means any person or entity that creates or
contributes to the creation of Modifications.

1.3 "Covered Code" means the Original Code, Modifications, the
combination of Original Code and any Modifications, and/or any
respective portions thereof.

1.4 "Externally Deploy" means: (a) to sublicense, distribute or
otherwise make Covered Code available, directly or indirectly, to
anyone other than You; and/or (b) to use Covered Code, alone or as
part of a Larger Work, in any way to provide a service, including but
not limited to delivery of content, through electronic communication
with a client other than You.

1.5 "Larger Work" means a work which combines Covered Code or portions
thereof with code not governed by the terms of this License.

1.6 "Modifications" mean any addition to, deletion from, and/or change
to, the substance and/or structure of the Original Code, any previous Modifications, the combination of Original Code and any previous
Modifications, and/or any respective portions thereof. When code is
released as a series of files, a Modification is: (a) any addition to
or deletion from the contents of a file containing Covered Code;
and/or (b) any new file or other representation of computer program
statements that contains any part of Covered Code.

1.7 "Original Code" means (a) the Source Code of a program or other
work as originally made available by Apple under this License,
including the Source Code of any updates or upgrades to such programs
or works made available by Apple under this License, and that has been expressly identified by Apple as such in the header file(s) of such
work; and (b) the object code compiled from such Source Code and
originally made available by Apple under this License.

1.8 "Source Code" means the human readable form of a program or other
work that is suitable for making modifications to it, including all
modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files,
scripts used to control compilation and installation of an executable
(object code).

1.9 "You" or "Your" means an individual or a legal entity exercising
rights under this License. For legal entities, "You" or "Your"
includes any entity which controls, is controlled by, or is under
common control with, You, where "control" means (a) the power, direct
or indirect, to cause the direction or management of such entity,
whether by contract or otherwise, or (b) ownership of fifty percent
(50%) or more of the outstanding shares or beneficial ownership of
such entity.

2. Permitted Uses; Conditions & Restrictions. Subject to the terms
and conditions of this License, Apple hereby grants You, effective on
the date You accept this License and download the Original Code, a
world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license, to the extent of
Apple's Applicable Patent Rights and copyrights covering the Original
Code, to do the following:

2.1 Unmodified Code. You may use, reproduce, display, perform,
internally distribute within Your organization, and Externally Deploy
verbatim, unmodified copies of the Original Code, for commercial or non-commercial purposes, provided that in each instance:

(a) You must retain and reproduce in all copies of Original Code the
copyright and other proprietary notices and disclaimers of Apple as
they appear in the Original Code, and keep intact all notices in the
Original Code that refer to this License; and

(b) You must include a copy of this License with every copy of Source
Code of Covered Code and documentation You distribute or Externally
Deploy, and You may not offer or impose any terms on such Source Code
that alter or restrict this License or the recipients' rights
hereunder, except as permitted under Section 6.

2.2 Modified Code. You may modify Covered Code and use, reproduce,
display, perform, internally distribute within Your organization, and Externally Deploy Your Modifications and Covered Code, for commercial
or non-commercial purposes, provided that in each instance You also
meet all of these conditions:

(a) You must satisfy all the conditions of Section 2.1 with respect to
the Source Code of the Covered Code;

(b) You must duplicate, to the extent it does not already exist, the
notice in Exhibit A in each file of the Source Code of all Your
Modifications, and cause the modified files to carry prominent notices
stating that You changed the files and the date of any change; and

(c) If You Externally Deploy Your Modifications, You must make
Source Code of all Your Externally Deployed Modifications either
available to those to whom You have Externally Deployed Your
Modifications, or publicly available. Source Code of Your Externally
Deployed Modifications must be released under the terms set forth in
this License, including the license grants set forth in Section 3
below, for as long as you Externally Deploy the Covered Code or twelve
(12) months from the date of initial External Deployment, whichever is
longer. You should preferably distribute the Source Code of Your
Externally Deployed Modifications electronically (e.g. download from a
web site).

2.3 Distribution of Executable Versions. In addition, if You
Externally Deploy Covered Code (Original Code and/or Modifications) in
object code, executable form only, You must include a prominent
notice, in the code itself as well as in related documentation,
stating that Source Code of the Covered Code is available under the
terms of this License with information on how and where to obtain such
Source Code.

2.4 Third Party Rights. You expressly acknowledge and agree that
although Apple and each Contributor grants the licenses to their
respective portions of the Covered Code set forth herein, no
assurances are provided by Apple or any Contributor that the Covered
Code does not infringe the patent or other intellectual property
rights of any other entity. Apple and each Contributor disclaim any
liability to You for claims brought by any other entity based on
infringement of intellectual property rights or otherwise. As a
condition to exercising the rights and licenses granted hereunder, You
hereby assume sole responsibility to secure any other intellectual
property rights needed, if any. For example, if a third party patent
license is required to allow You to distribute the Covered Code, it is
Your responsibility to acquire that license before distributing the
Covered Code.

3. Your Grants. In consideration of, and as a condition to, the
licenses granted to You under this License, You hereby grant to any
person or entity receiving or distributing Covered Code under this
License a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable license,
under Your Applicable Patent Rights and other intellectual property
rights (other than patent) owned or controlled by You, to use,
reproduce, display, perform, modify, sublicense, distribute and
Externally Deploy Your Modifications of the same scope and extent as
Apple's licenses under Sections 2.1 and 2.2 above.

4. Larger Works. You may create a Larger Work by combining Covered
Code with other code not governed by the terms of this License and
distribute the Larger Work as a single product. In each such instance,
You must make sure the requirements of this License are fulfilled for
the Covered Code or any portion thereof.

5. Limitations on Patent License. Except as expressly stated in
Section 2, no other patent rights, express or implied, are granted by
Apple herein. Modifications and/or Larger Works may require additional
patent licenses from Apple which Apple may grant in its sole
discretion.

6. Additional Terms. You may choose to offer, and to charge a fee for, warranty, support, indemnity or liability obligations and/or other
rights consistent with the scope of the license granted herein
("Additional Terms") to one or more recipients of Covered Code.
However, You may do so only on Your own behalf and as Your sole
responsibility, and not on behalf of Apple or any Contributor. You
must obtain the recipient's agreement that any such Additional Terms
are offered by You alone, and You hereby agree to indemnify, defend
and hold Apple and every Contributor harmless for any liability
incurred by or claims asserted against Apple or such Contributor by
reason of any such Additional Terms.

7. Versions of the License. Apple may publish revised and/or new
versions of this License from time to time. Each version will be given
a distinguishing version number. Once Original Code has been published
under a particular version of this License, You may continue to use it
under the terms of that version. You may also choose to use such
Original Code under the terms of any subsequent version of this
License published by Apple. No one other than Apple has the right to
modify the terms applicable to Covered Code created under this
License.

8. NO WARRANTY OR SUPPORT. The Covered Code may contain in whole or in
part pre-release, untested, or not fully tested works. The Covered
Code may contain errors that could cause failures or loss of data, and
may be incomplete or contain inaccuracies. You expressly acknowledge
and agree that use of the Covered Code, or any portion thereof, is at
Your sole and entire risk. THE COVERED CODE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND
WITHOUT WARRANTY, UPGRADES OR SUPPORT OF ANY KIND AND APPLE AND
APPLE'S LICENSOR(S) (COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS "APPLE" FOR THE
PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 8 AND 9) AND ALL CONTRIBUTORS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM
ALL WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS OF
MERCHANTABILITY, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE, OF ACCURACY, OF QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD
PARTY RIGHTS. APPLE AND EACH CONTRIBUTOR DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE COVERED CODE, THAT THE
FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN THE COVERED CODE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS,
THAT THE OPERATION OF THE COVERED CODE WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR
ERROR-FREE, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE COVERED CODE WILL BE CORRECTED. NO
ORAL OR WRITTEN INFORMATION OR ADVICE GIVEN BY APPLE, AN APPLE
AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OR ANY CONTRIBUTOR SHALL CREATE A WARRANTY.
You acknowledge that the Covered Code is not intended for use in the
operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation, communication
systems, or air traffic control machines in which case the failure of
the Covered Code could lead to death, personal injury, or severe
physical or environmental damage.

9. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY LAW, IN NO
EVENT SHALL APPLE OR ANY CONTRIBUTOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY INCIDENTAL,
SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING
TO THIS LICENSE OR YOUR USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE COVERED CODE, OR
ANY PORTION THEREOF, WHETHER UNDER A THEORY OF CONTRACT, WARRANTY,
TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), PRODUCTS LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF
APPLE OR SUCH CONTRIBUTOR HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
DAMAGES AND NOTWITHSTANDING THE FAILURE OF ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OF ANY
REMEDY. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THIS LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY
TO YOU. In no event shall Apple's total liability to You for all
damages (other than as may be required by applicable law) under this
License exceed the amount of fifty dollars ($50.00).

10. Trademarks. This License does not grant any rights to use the
trademarks or trade names "Apple", "Apple Computer", "Mac", "Mac OS", "QuickTime", "QuickTime Streaming Server" or any other trademarks,
service marks, logos or trade names belonging to Apple (collectively
"Apple Marks") or to any trademark, service mark, logo or trade name
belonging to any Contributor. You agree not to use any Apple Marks in
or as part of the name of products derived from the Original Code or
to endorse or promote products derived from the Original Code other
than as expressly permitted by and in strict compliance at all times
with Apple's third party trademark usage guidelines which are posted
at http://www.apple.com/legal/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html.

11. Ownership. Subject to the licenses granted under this License,
each Contributor retains all rights, title and interest in and to any Modifications made by such Contributor. Apple retains all rights,
title and interest in and to the Original Code and any Modifications
made by or on behalf of Apple ("Apple Modifications"), and such Apple Modifications will not be automatically subject to this License. Apple
may, at its sole discretion, choose to license such Apple
Modifications under this License, or on different terms from those
contained in this License or may choose not to license them at all.

12. Termination.

12.1 Termination. This License and the rights granted hereunder will
terminate:

(a) automatically without notice from Apple if You fail to comply with
any term(s) of this License and fail to cure such breach within 30
days of becoming aware of such breach;

(b) immediately in the event of the circumstances described in Section
13.5(b); or

(c) automatically without notice from Apple if You, at any time during
the term of this License, commence an action for patent infringement
against Apple; provided that Apple did not first commence
an action for patent infringement against You in that instance.

12.2 Effect of Termination. Upon termination, You agree to immediately
stop any further use, reproduction, modification, sublicensing and
distribution of the Covered Code. All sublicenses to the Covered Code
which have been properly granted prior to termination shall survive
any termination of this License. Provisions which, by their nature,
should remain in effect beyond the termination of this License shall
survive, including but not limited to Sections 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11,
12.2 and 13. No party will be liable to any other for compensation,
indemnity or damages of any sort solely as a result of terminating
this License in accordance with its terms, and termination of this
License will be without prejudice to any other right or remedy of
any party.

13. Miscellaneous.

13.1 Government End Users. The Covered Code is a "commercial item" as
defined in FAR 2.101. Government software and technical data rights in
the Covered Code include only those rights customarily provided to the
public as defined in this License. This customary commercial license
in technical data and software is provided in accordance with FAR
12.211 (Technical Data) and 12.212 (Computer Software) and, for
Department of Defense purchases, DFAR 252.227-7015 (Technical Data -- Commercial Items) and 227.7202-3 (Rights in Commercial Computer
Software or Computer Software Documentation). Accordingly, all U.S.
Government End Users acquire Covered Code with only those rights set
forth herein.

13.2 Relationship of Parties. This License will not be construed as
creating an agency, partnership, joint venture or any other form of
legal association between or among You, Apple or any Contributor, and
You will not represent to the contrary, whether expressly, by
implication, appearance or otherwise.

13.3 Independent Development. Nothing in this License will impair
Apple's right to acquire, license, develop, have others develop for
it, market and/or distribute technology or products that perform the
same or similar functions as, or otherwise compete with,
Modifications, Larger Works, technology or products that You may
develop, produce, market or distribute.

13.4 Waiver; Construction. Failure by Apple or any Contributor to
enforce any provision of this License will not be deemed a waiver of
future enforcement of that or any other provision. Any law or
regulation which provides that the language of a contract shall be
construed against the drafter will not apply to this License.

13.5 Severability. (a) If for any reason a court of competent
jurisdiction finds any provision of this License, or portion thereof,
to be unenforceable, that provision of the License will be enforced to
the maximum extent permissible so as to effect the economic benefits
and intent of the parties, and the remainder of this License will
continue in full force and effect. (b) Notwithstanding the foregoing,
if applicable law prohibits or restricts You from fully and/or
specifically complying with Sections 2 and/or 3 or prevents the
enforceability of either of those Sections, this License will
immediately terminate and You must immediately discontinue any use of
the Covered Code and destroy all copies of it that are in your
possession or control.

13.6 Dispute Resolution. Any litigation or other dispute resolution
between You and Apple relating to this License shall take place in the
Northern District of California, and You and Apple hereby consent to
the personal jurisdiction of, and venue in, the state and federal
courts within that District with respect to this License. The
application of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the
International Sale of Goods is expressly excluded.

13.7 Entire Agreement; Governing Law. This License constitutes the
entire agreement between the parties with respect to the subject
matter hereof. This License shall be governed by the laws of the
United States and the State of California, except that body of
California law concerning conflicts of law.

Where You are located in the province of Quebec, Canada, the following
clause applies: The parties hereby confirm that they have requested
that this License and all related documents be drafted in English. Les
parties ont exige que le present contrat et tous les documents
connexes soient rediges en anglais.

EXHIBIT A.

"Portions Copyright (c) 1999-2003 Apple Computer, Inc. All Rights
Reserved.

This file contains Original Code and/or Modifications of Original Code
as defined in and that are subject to the Apple Public Source License
Version 2.0 (the 'License'). You may not use this file except in
compliance with the License. Please obtain a copy of the License at http://www.opensource.apple.com/apsl/ and read it before using this
file.

The Original Code and all software distributed under the License are distributed on an 'AS IS' basis, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND APPLE HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES,
INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUIET ENJOYMENT OR NON-INFRINGEMENT.
Please see the License for the specific language governing rights and limitations under the License."

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To: [email protected]

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* On 8/4/22 05:00, Ben Westover wrote:

I was wondering if the Apple Public Source License (version 2.0)
complies with the DFSG. The Free Software Foundation considers it to be
a free software license (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.en.html),
but I just wanted to make sure it's compatible with the DFSG.

According to https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#Apple_Public_Source_License_.28APSL.29 , which also lists discussions/reasoning for version 1.0 (which is considered non-free) and your desired version 2.0, it is considered free, but DFSG-incompatible.


Mihai

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On Wed, 2022-08-03 at 23:00 -0400, Ben Westover wrote:

I was wondering if the Apple Public Source License (version 2.0)
complies with the DFSG. The Free Software Foundation considers it to be
a free software license (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.en.html),
but I just wanted to make sure it's compatible with the DFSG. Below is
the full text of the license.

I don't know about that, but I note some things:

The wiki describes it as being non-free and cites two threads:

https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#Apple_Public_Source_License_.28APSL.29 https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/[email protected] https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/[email protected]

There are recent challenges to it being non-free in these threads:

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/[email protected]
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/[email protected]

There are copies of the license in Debian main:

https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=APPLE+PUBLIC+SOURCE+LICENSE&literal=1

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 19:15 -0400, Ben Westover wrote:

Interesting, the APSL 2.0 is seen in some relatively important
packages like Chromium and QtWebEngine.

I wouldn't put any weight on the presence of the APSL 2.0 license text
in the archive, probably it got into Debian in those packages due to
lack of copyright/license review rather than deliberate acceptance,
especially since it is in one of the many code copies in both of them.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 19:09 -0400, Ben Westover wrote:

Those are based on conversations that are almost a decade old, and some things have changed since then. I just wanted a re-review of the license
in 2022 to see if the complaints from before still hold up today.

What would have changed since the 2004 review of APSL 2.0?

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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To: [email protected]

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

On 8/4/22 8:30 PM, Paul Wise wrote:

What would have changed since the 2004 review of APSL 2.0?

Here's a quote from that 2020 challenge of the APSL-1.2 being considered non-free in 2001:

For the APSL-1.2, it seems that the only clause that makes the
license non-DFSG-compliant is this one:

(c) You must make Source Code of all Your Deployed Modifications
publicly available under the terms of this License, including
the license grants set forth in Section 3 below, for as long as
you Deploy the Covered Code or twelve (12) months from the date
of initial Deployment, whichever is longer. You should
preferably distribute the Source Code of Your Deployed
Modifications electronically (e.g. download from a web site);

It was claimed in [6] that this clause makes the APSL-1.2
non-DFSG-compliant as it's not possible for Debian to keep every
single modification around for at least 12 months.

This claim may have been valid in 2001, but I think it does not hold
up for 2020 since source code to packaging in Debian is usually
maintained in Salsa or Github and therefore keeping all modifications available for 12 months and longer, plus there is Debian Snapshots [7]
which keeps a older versions of a package around as well - including
source code.

Things like this make me question whether the 2004 decision to consider
the APSL 2.0 non-DFSG-compliant is still valid in 2022. In fact, after
reading through the thread [1] the wiki references making the APSL 2.0 incompatible with the DFSG, I'm not so sure it does that. IANAL, but
from what I could understand it seemed that there was a good argument
that the alleged non-DFSG clauses actually *did* comply with the DFSG,
and that argument wasn't fully refuted. The wiki references one other
thread, but that thread is specifically about the APSL 1.2, which the
APSL 2.0 fixes the issues of according to the FSF. That thread was
finished about two years before the APSL 2.0 came into existence.

I just want to reopen the issue of whether or not the APSL 2.0, not 1.2,
is DFSG-compliant, reviewing it fully instead of relying on a
questionable decision made in 2001/4.

Thanks,
--
Ben Westover

[1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/06/msg00573.html

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ben Westover writes:

On August 5, 2022 1:03:18 AM EDT, Walter Landry <[email protected]> wrote:

As someone who participated in that original exchange in 2004, APSL 2.0 >>still looks impossible to follow. If Debian suddenly goes off-line,
Debian is not in compliance with the license.

How exactly does Debian "go off-line", with so many mirrors and other
forms of redundancy?

The long arm of the law can make that happen. Whatever problems Debian
may have with the law, that does not excuse its obligations under the
license.

But that is just if Debian wanted to distribute the code in non-free.
For the main archive, the DFSG is a guarantee for the users. I know
that if I, as an individual, get code from main and distribute changes,
at most I will have to publish the corresponding source at the same
time. The APSL requires me, personally, to make the corresponding
source available for 12 months. I can not just take down my website and
work on a farm.

For all of the other
licenses, offering the source at the same time is sufficient. For APSL >>2.0, Debian has to keep the source archive up for at least 12 months
since it last published a modification.

Doesn't the GPL2 mandate three years of distribution for non-personal modifications?

No. If you distribute the corresponding source at the same time, that
is enough.

Cheers,
Walter Landry

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ben Westover writes:

Hello,

On 8/4/22 8:30 PM, Paul Wise wrote:

What would have changed since the 2004 review of APSL 2.0?

Here's a quote from that 2020 challenge of the APSL-1.2 being considered non-free in 2001:

For the APSL-1.2, it seems that the only clause that makes the
license non-DFSG-compliant is this one:

(c) You must make Source Code of all Your Deployed Modifications
publicly available under the terms of this License, including
the license grants set forth in Section 3 below, for as long as
you Deploy the Covered Code or twelve (12) months from the date
of initial Deployment, whichever is longer. You should
preferably distribute the Source Code of Your Deployed
Modifications electronically (e.g. download from a web site);

It was claimed in [6] that this clause makes the APSL-1.2
non-DFSG-compliant as it's not possible for Debian to keep every
single modification around for at least 12 months.

This claim may have been valid in 2001, but I think it does not hold
up for 2020 since source code to packaging in Debian is usually
maintained in Salsa or Github and therefore keeping all modifications
available for 12 months and longer, plus there is Debian Snapshots [7]
which keeps a older versions of a package around as well - including
source code.

Things like this make me question whether the 2004 decision to consider
the APSL 2.0 non-DFSG-compliant is still valid in 2022. In fact, after reading through the thread [1] the wiki references making the APSL 2.0 incompatible with the DFSG, I'm not so sure it does that. IANAL, but
from what I could understand it seemed that there was a good argument
that the alleged non-DFSG clauses actually *did* comply with the DFSG,
and that argument wasn't fully refuted. The wiki references one other
thread, but that thread is specifically about the APSL 1.2, which the
APSL 2.0 fixes the issues of according to the FSF. That thread was
finished about two years before the APSL 2.0 came into existence.

As someone who participated in that original exchange in 2004, APSL 2.0
still looks impossible to follow. If Debian suddenly goes off-line,
Debian is not in compliance with the license. For all of the other
licenses, offering the source at the same time is sufficient. For APSL
2.0, Debian has to keep the source archive up for at least 12 months
since it last published a modification.

Cheers,
Walter Landry

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Interesting, the APSL 2.0 is seen in some relatively important
packages like Chromium and QtWebEngine.

What code is exactly under that license? As far as I know, WebKit
itself (which Chromium is a fork of) is licensed under LGPL (KDE code)
and 2-clause BSD (Apple code).

In your example of Chromium, it appears to be “XNU” and “Cross-Platform Mach Interface Generator (mig)”.

https://sources.debian.org/src/chromium/103.0.5060.134-1/third_party/mig/README.chromium/

So for Debian GNU/Linux, it could be easily removed and ignored.
However, Debian GNU/Darwin might want to have those libraries.

Regards

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 2022-08-05 at 08:25 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:

I wouldn't put any weight on the presence of the APSL 2.0 license
text
in the archive, probably it got into Debian in those packages due to
lack of copyright/license review rather than deliberate acceptance, especially since it is in one of the many code copies in both of
them.

There could also be cases of dual-licensing.

Regards

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

To: [email protected]

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------bRkOpLRcDED5IP7pkg9jF0Ld
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

* On 8/5/22 01:09, Ben Westover wrote:

Those are based on conversations that are almost a decade old, and some things have changed since then. I just wanted a re-review of the license
in 2022 to see if the complaints from before still hold up today.

I can see how the outcome of, e.g., legal disputes can change the view on a license over time, especially since this would indicate practical application and interpretation of a license. Your request is understandable.

I am, as a layman, still having a hard time understanding why any version of the
APSL license would be considered free in the first place, since it certainly contains a discrimination clause in section 8:

You acknowledge that the Covered Code is not intended for use in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation, communication
systems, or air traffic control machines in which case the failure of
the Covered Code could lead to death, personal injury, or severe
physical or environmental damage.

This directly contradicts freedom 0 and has been part of any APSL version, only slightly modified in wording ("Covered Code" vs. "Original Code" in previous versions), from version 1.0 to 2.0.

Daniel Hakimi pointed out a way of interpretation for which this would not be problematic due to internal contradiction:

Perhaps the OSI and FSF interpret this as only relating to the warranty... But there is no warranty.

Another way of interpreting this is by taking the words "not intended for use in" literally and arguing that as long as the author of the software does not intend the software to be used in these fields, everything is fine. However, that falls short to the actual deployment, which is also covered by this license, and the term also applies to purely users/integrators. In such a case, you, as a user/integrator, could claim that the usage in these fields was *not intended*, but *accidentally occurred*.

Now, obviously, these arguments are not very convincing, but crucially, I have not found any statement from the FSF as to why they have deemed this subsection to be a non-problem. I might just go ahead and ask them directly.


In the thread started by John Paul Adrian Glaubitz in 2020 regarding the APSL 1.2, one issue I had with the license was the practical implications employed by
section 2.2 (c) (2.0 version):

(c) If You Externally Deploy Your Modifications, You must make
Source Code of all Your Externally Deployed Modifications either
available to those to whom You have Externally Deployed Your
Modifications, or publicly available. Source Code of Your Externally
Deployed Modifications must be released under the terms set forth in
this License, including the license grants set forth in Section 3
below, for as long as you Externally Deploy the Covered Code or twelve
(12) months from the date of initial External Deployment, whichever is longer. You should preferably distribute the Source Code of Your
Externally Deployed Modifications electronically (e.g. download from a
web site).

Compare this to the GPL 2:

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under
Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1
and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source
code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2
above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to
give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically
performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the
corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to
distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only
for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in
object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with
Subsection b above.)

The difference between having to make source code available unconditionally (to users or publicly, which thankfully is an or-condition) vs. upon request can be a huge one. Contrary to what I have written for APSL 1.2 in 2020, APSL 2.0's section is compatible with the DFSG as far as I can see, so this is not a concern, but practically, APSL 2.0 can be inconvenient. Imagine Debian was forced to stop distribution of source and binary forms. In such a case, to stay conformant with the license, it would need to find a way to continue distributing APSL-2.0-licensed source code publicly, for practical matters, to meet the twelve months requirement. For GPL-2-licensed software, it would be enough to have somebody available to handle requests for source code on a case-by-case basis.

Then again, maybe I am misinterpreting the ASPL 2.0, since it does not explicitly mention how to make source code available to those to whom the software was deployed to and case-by-case distribution upon request is likewise not explicitly mentioned or forbidden. If that is the case, then the only actual, practical, difference is the time period, which is more lenient for APSL
2.0.

Note that the common argument of "distributing source code along binary code", which would circumvent the requirement to make source code publicly or semi-publicly available, is good and true in its core, but not a practical one for software distributors that provide binary packages as the primary means of installation, since the binary packages are almost never accompanied by source code. Practically, Debian will always need to make source code available externally, unless we require bundling source code with APSL-2.0-licensed binary
works.

Again, these thoughts are merely ones pertaining to practicability, not DFSG compatibility. It is, however, not inconceivable that FTP Master would reject software based on practical reasons, even if the license itself is DFSG-compatible.


Lastly, and as a side note, I would like to point out that I do not have a personal agenda against Apple's or APSL-licensed software. I do find software such as hfsprogs useful and occasionally used them myself. As an example, hfsprogs has been packaged for a while now and is part of the non-free section, which is good to have.



Mihai

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Mihai wrote:

* On 8/5/22 01:09, Ben Westover wrote:

Those are based on conversations that are almost a decade old, and some
things have changed since then. I just wanted a re-review of the license
in 2022 to see if the complaints from before still hold up today.

I can see how the outcome of, e.g., legal disputes can change the view on a >license over time, especially since this would indicate practical application >and interpretation of a license. Your request is understandable.

I am, as a layman, still having a hard time understanding why any version of the
APSL license would be considered free in the first place, since it certainly >contains a discrimination clause in section 8:

You acknowledge that the Covered Code is not intended for use in the
operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation, communication
systems, or air traffic control machines in which case the failure of
the Covered Code could lead to death, personal injury, or severe
physical or environmental damage.

This directly contradicts freedom 0 and has been part of any APSL version, only
slightly modified in wording ("Covered Code" vs. "Original Code" in previous >versions), from version 1.0 to 2.0.

That's not a restriction, though. It's *not* saying "you may not use
this software for XXX", it's saying "this software is not intended for
XXX". There's quite a difference there IMHO.

Daniel Hakimi pointed out a way of interpretation for which this would not be >problematic due to internal contradiction:

Perhaps the OSI and FSF interpret this as only relating to the warranty... >> But there is no warranty.

Another way of interpreting this is by taking the words "not intended for use >in" literally and arguing that as long as the author of the software does not >intend the software to be used in these fields, everything is fine. However, >that falls short to the actual deployment, which is also covered by this >license, and the term also applies to purely users/integrators. In such a case,
you, as a user/integrator, could claim that the usage in these fields was *not >intended*, but *accidentally occurred*.

Now, obviously, these arguments are not very convincing, but crucially, I have >not found any statement from the FSF as to why they have deemed this subsection
to be a non-problem. I might just go ahead and ask them directly.

I think it's lawyer-speak CYA. There's nothing magic there.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. [email protected] "We're the technical experts. We were hired so that management could
ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs." -- Mike Andrews

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 2022-08-05 at 10:31 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:

That's not a restriction, though. It's *not* saying "you may not use
this software for XXX", it's saying "this software is not intended
for XXX". There's quite a difference there IMHO.

To me it sounds like a more explicit “No Warranty” clause for critical applications.

Regards

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, Aug 05, 2022 at 10:49:05AM +0000, Stephan Verbücheln wrote:

On Fri, 2022-08-05 at 10:31 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:

That's not a restriction, though. It's *not* saying "you may not use
this software for XXX", it's saying "this software is not intended
for XXX". There's quite a difference there IMHO.

To me it sounds like a more explicit “No Warranty” clause for critical >applications.

Yup, exactly.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. [email protected] Who needs computer imagery when you've got Brian Blessed?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 5 Aug 2022 10:32:06 +0200 Mihai Moldovan wrote:

[...]

In the thread started by John Paul Adrian Glaubitz in 2020 regarding the APSL 1.2, one issue I had with the license was the practical implications employed by
section 2.2 (c) (2.0 version):

(c) If You Externally Deploy Your Modifications, You must make
Source Code of all Your Externally Deployed Modifications either
available to those to whom You have Externally Deployed Your
Modifications, or publicly available. Source Code of Your Externally Deployed Modifications must be released under the terms set forth in
this License, including the license grants set forth in Section 3
below, for as long as you Externally Deploy the Covered Code or twelve
(12) months from the date of initial External Deployment, whichever is longer. You should preferably distribute the Source Code of Your
Externally Deployed Modifications electronically (e.g. download from a
web site).

Compare this to the GPL 2:

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under
Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1
and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source
code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2
above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to
give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically
performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the
corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections
1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to
distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only
for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in
object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with
Subsection b above.)

The difference between having to make source code available unconditionally (to
users or publicly, which thankfully is an or-condition) vs. upon request can be
a huge one. Contrary to what I have written for APSL 1.2 in 2020, APSL 2.0's section is compatible with the DFSG as far as I can see, so this is not a concern, but practically, APSL 2.0 can be inconvenient. Imagine Debian was forced to stop distribution of source and binary forms. In such a case, to stay
conformant with the license, it would need to find a way to continue distributing APSL-2.0-licensed source code publicly, for practical matters, to
meet the twelve months requirement. For GPL-2-licensed software, it would be enough to have somebody available to handle requests for source code on a case-by-case basis.

Please note that Debian satisfies section 3 of the GNU GPL v2 by
choosing subsection 3a, not 3b!

Debian is not making written offers to provide source.
Debian is making source available for download on the same archive (and mirrors) where the binary can be downloaded from.
The FSF has [clarified] that this suffices to satisfy subsection 3a.

[clarified]: <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#AnonFTPAndSendSources>

As a consequence, in your hypothetical scenario where Debian is forced
to stop distribution of software, Debian would have no further
obligations for GPLv2-licensed software.

On the other hand, Debian would be forced to still make source
available for at least 12 months from the date of the initial "External Deployment" of any APSL-v2.0-licensed software.

I think this is a huge difference: the GPLv2 allows you to follow a
strategy, where you have already satisfied all your obligations and
have no future requirements to worry about.
The APSL-v2.0 does not.

Then again, maybe I am misinterpreting the ASPL 2.0, since it does not explicitly mention how to make source code available to those to whom the software was deployed to and case-by-case distribution upon request is likewise
not explicitly mentioned or forbidden. If that is the case, then the only actual, practical, difference is the time period, which is more lenient for APSL 2.0.

As I have said above, I think the difference is definitely bigger.

Note that the common argument of "distributing source code along binary code",
which would circumvent the requirement to make source code publicly or semi-publicly available, is good and true in its core, but not a practical one
for software distributors that provide binary packages as the primary means of
installation, since the binary packages are almost never accompanied by source
code. Practically, Debian will always need to make source code available externally, unless we require bundling source code with APSL-2.0-licensed binary works.

[...]

Debian *is* offering source for download from the same archive/mirror infrastructure.
This is enough for the GNU GPL v2, without any other future obligations. Contrast this with the APSL v2.0, which imposes obligations for at least
12 months from the initial "External Deployment", even in the cases
where the source has been bundled with all binary distributions.



--
http://www.inventati.org/frx/
There's not a second to spare! To the laboratory! ..................................................... Francesco Poli .
GnuPG key fpr == CA01 1147 9CD2 EFDF FB82 3925 3E1C 27E1 1F69 BFFE

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