Hi there!

The fruit package [1] comes with a binary file named `book_small.bin'. This binary file does not have a source code.

Reading the documentation and checking the source code of the package, the binary file appears to contain chess openings, and I believe it is used by default by the program.

Should this binary file be removed from this package?

[1] https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/fruit


Best Regards,
mt




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Marcos Talau writes:

The fruit package [1] comes with a binary file named `book_small.bin'. This binary file does not have a source code.

Reading the documentation and checking the source code of the package, the binary file appears to contain chess openings, and I believe it is used by default by the program.

How was book_small.bin generated? More concretely, if I wanted to add
chess openings, would I start from book_small.bin? Or is there some
other file that I would modify and then generate book_small.bin?

Cheers,
Walter Landry

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On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 12:06:33PM -0700, Walter Landry wrote:
[...]

How was book_small.bin generated? More concretely, if I wanted to add
chess openings, would I start from book_small.bin? Or is there some
other file that I would modify and then generate book_small.bin?

After reading the file `readme.txt' of fruit package I checked that the binary file is generated by another package called "polyglot". To generate the binary file, polyglot needs a PGN file as source. The PGN file does not come with fruit package.


Cheers,
mt

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Dear Marcos,

After reading the file `readme.txt' of fruit package I checked that the binary
file is generated by another package called "polyglot". To generate the binary
file, polyglot needs a PGN file as source. The PGN file does not come with fruit package.

These binary opening books contain extra data not included in PGN files - for instance, the relative competitive chess ratings of the players. As such, I don't think the book_small.bin book would have been generated from PGN files alone.

In general, data isn't protected by 'IP', but collections of data certainly can be! The README of fruit would suggest that book_small.bin was copied over from polyglot, the author's previous work: I would imagine that the author intended the book to be licensed under the GPL as with the fruit package more generally.

Have you considered contacting the upstream author? He's still active in the chess computation space, it seems.

Best wishes,

Sebastian

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Is it really an executabe binary, i.e. a computer program for any real
or virtual programming or machine language?

I don't think that (non-executable) binary data is a problem. If the
data is produced/generated with some tools, the “source” would be nice
to have though, because it helps to make modifications.
For example, a program might contain a picture, but not the project
files from the image editor that created it.

Regards

On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 15:22 -0300, Marcos Talau wrote:

Hi there!

The fruit package [1] comes with a binary file named
`book_small.bin'. This
binary file does not have a source code.

Reading the documentation and checking the source code of the
package, the
binary file appears to contain chess openings, and I believe it is
used by
default by the program.

Should this binary file be removed from this package?

[1] https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/fruit

Best Regards,
mt

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On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 04:22:19AM +0000, Stephan Verbücheln wrote:

Is it really an executabe binary, i.e. a computer program for any real
or virtual programming or machine language?

I don't think that (non-executable) binary data is a problem. If the
data is produced/generated with some tools, the “source” would be nice
to have though, because it helps to make modifications.

No, that is not how it works. It is not only nice to have.
We want the "preferred form of modification" in the package and a binary
blob is often not.

For example, a program might contain a picture, but not the project
files from the image editor that created it.

Actually, if we have that infortmation, We'd ask for the project file
to be included.

Regards

On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 15:22 -0300, Marcos Talau wrote:

Hi there!

The fruit package [1] comes with a binary file named
`book_small.bin'. This
binary file does not have a source code.

Reading the documentation and checking the source code of the
package, the
binary file appears to contain chess openings, and I believe it is
used by
default by the program.

Should this binary file be removed from this package?

[1] https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/fruit

Best Regards,
mt

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Dear Tobias,

No, that is not how it works. It is not only nice to have.
We want the "preferred form of modification" in the package and a binary
blob is often not.

What would you say the preferred form of modification should be for
chess opening books?

a: the collection of millions of recorded chess games, usually in the
form of gigabytes of PGN files (which are somewhat human readable, but
usually produced and edited with GUIs)

b: that collection plus a number of filtering rules for reducing that
down to a smaller number of games (for instance, only games with
players of a certain skill level)

c: the reduced collection of thousands of recorded chess games,
produced from applying the rules to the large collection

d: the binary format, 'polyglot bin file', produced from the reduced
collection and directly used by chess engines such as fruit

As you can see, there are many different stages involved in producing
the opening book, and those with different intentions may find one to
be a 'preferred form of modification' more than others.

If the modification is just to add my favourite line to an existing
opening, I might want just option 'd', and I can edit it with my chess
program. However, if I want to create the optimal opening book for
playing against grandmasters, I might want to start with option 'a'
instead to get more control.

Finally, is the free licensing of the book file itself disputed? If
so, there will be other book files with known provenance and free
licensing that we could use instead.

Best wishes,

Sebastian

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"Sebastian" == Sebastian Crane <[email protected]> writes:

Sebastian> Dear Tobias,
>> No, that is not how it works. It is not only nice to have. We
>> want the "preferred form of modification" in the package and a
>> binary blob is often not.

Sebastian> What would you say the preferred form of modification
Sebastian> should be for chess opening books?

I'd say that the DD sending a package through new needs to answer that
question based on the best interests of our users and the free software community.
In different circumstances each of the answers you propose could be
correct.
Major factors in making that decision include what data is actually
available to the upstream author as well as how upstream has generally
chosen to make modifications.
If data is available to upstream but not to Debian that's a good sign
that we have a DFSG problem we cannot resolve.

As you point out, the question can sometimes be complicated.
In such complicated situations I'd expect the DD who is initially
sending a package through new to carefully consider and to explain the preferred form for modification.

In the above I say DD rather than maintainer, because looking at these
sort of things is why initial uploads cannot be done by a DM.

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On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 at 13:23:41 +0100, Sebastian Crane wrote:

What would you say the preferred form of modification should be for
chess opening books?

I think talking about "the" preferred form for modification is often an oversimplification when discussing content that is not executable code,
and thinking about it in terms of "a" preferred form for modification
sometimes leads to more reasonable results.

smcv

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On Mon, 2022-06-27 at 07:27 +0200, Tobias Frost wrote:

No, that is not how it works. It is not only nice to have.
We want the "preferred form of modification" in the package and a
binary
blob is often not.

For example, a program might contain a picture, but not the project
files from the image editor that created it.

Actually, if we have that infortmation, We'd ask for the project file
to be included.

I agree that this is absolutely desirable to have those files included,
not only for computer programs. However, has there ever been a case
where software was excluded (or patched) because it did not include the “project files” for its data files?

Regards

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On Mon, 2022-06-27 at 08:32 -0600, Sam Hartman wrote:

Major factors in making that decision include what data is actually
available to the upstream author as well as how upstream has generally
chosen to make modifications.
If data is available to upstream but not to Debian that's a good sign
that we have a DFSG problem we cannot resolve.

Indeed, since the FSD/OSD/DFSG are primarily about providing equality
of access to a work between upstream and everyone who receives a work.

Adding gigabytes of PGN files to Debian probably wouldn't be accepted
by ftp-master, so I think we can rule out including that. I think that
a link to a publicly available archive of the full set of game records
should replace the large set of PGN files for Debian and everything
else should be included in Debian. So add the filter rules, the reduced
set of recorded chess games and the tools for converting PGN files to
polyglot bin files to Debian. Since the polyglot bin file would be able
to be generated solely from source and binary packages available in
Debian, it should not be present in any source package and should
always be generated at build time, so that Debian can prove that it can
still generate the file using a rebuild. End users who want to modify
it using their chess programs can use the file in the binary package.

This approach would deliver the maximum possible freedom for everyone.
The only people inconvenienced are folks who want to choose a different
set of games; they are only inconvenienced due to the storage usage
being prohibitively large for Debian. If they have enough storage they
can still download the full game archive themselves and filter it too.
If they don't then maybe they can send their new filter rules to the
game archive and have the archive apply them and return a new game set.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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