• Contacting Java packaging team

    From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 12 17:30:01 2024
    Hi,

    I'd like to officially contact all our teams to learn about potential
    issues that might affect your work. I would love to learn how you
    organise / share your workload. If you do some regular meetings - be it
    on IRC, video conference or whatever I'm interested in joining one of
    your next meetings.

    Like previous DPLs, I'm open to any inquiries or requests for
    assistance. I personally prefer public discussion whenever possible, as
    they can benefit a wider audience. You can find a list of contact
    options at the bottom of my page on people.d.o[1].

    I prefer being offline when I'm away from my keyboard, so I don't carry
    a phone. In urgent situations, I can provide the number of my dumb
    phone, though it may not always be within reach. Feel free to ping me
    via email if I don't respond promptly to ensure I address your concerns.

    Please let me know whether I can do something for you. I'm fine joining
    your IRC channel if needed but please invite me in case I should be
    informed about some urgent discussion there since I normally do not lurk
    on this channel.

    I'd also like to inform you that I've registered a BoF for DebConf24 in
    Busan with the following description:

    This BoF is an attempt to gather as much as possible teams inside
    Debian to exchange experiences, discuss workflows inside teams, share
    their ways to attract newcomers etc.

    Each participant team should prepare a short description of their work
    and what team roles (“openings”) they have for new contributors. Even
    for delegated teams (membership is less fluid), it would be good to
    present the team, explain what it takes to be a team member, and what
    steps people usually go to end up being invited to participate. Some
    other teams can easily absorb contributions from salsa MRs, and at some
    point people get commit access. Anyway, the point is that we work on the
    idea that the pathway to become a team member becomes more clear from an
    outsider point-of-view.

    I'm sure not everybody will be able to travel this distance but it would
    be great if you would at least consider joining that BoF remotely. I'll
    care for a somehow TimeZone aware scheduling - if needed we'll organise
    two BoFs to match all time zones. I'm also aware that we have pretty
    different teams and it might make sense to do some infrastructure
    related BoF with your team and other teams that are caring for Debian infrastructure.

    I have some specific questions to the Java packaging team.

    - Do you feel good when doing your work in Java packaging team?
    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?
    - Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?
    - Can you give some individual estimation how many hours per week you
    are working on your tasks in youre team? Does this fit the amount of
    time you can really afford for this task?
    - In my packaging work I frequently contacted Java packaging team and
    usually got help very quickly - thanks a lot for this. The only
    thing I was not happy about is the fact that the team decided to make
    the usage of Salsa CI extra hard. I've contacted the Salsa CI team
    before and explicitly asked about this policy. They do not understand
    and recommend to run Salsa CI as default but by no means even hide
    the button to switch it on. Would you mind changing your policy about
    this?
    - Can I do anything for you?


    Kind regards and thanks a lot for your work
    Andreas.


    [1] https://people.debian.org/~tille/
    [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-java/2021/04/msg00025.html

    --
    https://fam-tille.de

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  • From Emmanuel Bourg@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 16 22:50:02 2024
    Hi Andreas,

    Le 12/06/2024 à 17:27, Andreas Tille a écrit :

    I'd like to officially contact all our teams to learn about potential
    issues that might affect your work. I would love to learn how you
    organise / share your workload. If you do some regular meetings - be it
    on IRC, video conference or whatever I'm interested in joining one of
    your next meetings.

    That's a good idea, thank you.

    I have some specific questions to the Java packaging team.

    - Do you feel good when doing your work in Java packaging team?

    Absolutely

    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?

    No but that's not an issue, everyone scratches the itches he wants.

    - Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?

    Not really.

    - In my packaging work I frequently contacted Java packaging team and
    usually got help very quickly - thanks a lot for this. The only
    thing I was not happy about is the fact that the team decided to make
    the usage of Salsa CI extra hard. I've contacted the Salsa CI team
    before and explicitly asked about this policy. They do not understand
    and recommend to run Salsa CI as default but by no means even hide
    the button to switch it on. Would you mind changing your policy about
    this?

    There is no policy regarding Salsa CI in the Java Team, anyone who
    wishes to use it is free to do so. Personally, I do not because it
    doesn't add value to my workflow. I'm also not a fan of the IRC spam
    induced, and in times of energy sobriety I feel that's a non-essential
    tool we can do without.

    - Can I do anything for you?

    Just keep the good work :)


    Emmanuel Bourg

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  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 17 08:20:01 2024
    Hi Emmanuel,

    Am Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 10:40:02PM +0200 schrieb Emmanuel Bourg:
    That's a good idea, thank you.

    You (all in the Java team) are welcome. I frequently profited from
    your help.

    I have some specific questions to the Java packaging team.

    - Do you feel good when doing your work in Java packaging team?

    Absolutely

    That's always good to know.

    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?

    No but that's not an issue, everyone scratches the itches he wants.

    From my experience in other teams I'd recommend to reach out to team
    members a bit more. I consider the coordintion inside the Perl team a
    good example. Also the Python team does yearly meetings at DebConf.
    This common team feeling might increase the productivity of the team.
    Inside the Debian Med team besides yearly sprints we have quite good
    experience with what we call "advent bug squashing party". In this
    effort team members are try to close bugs in packages of other
    Uploaders. This contributes to some interchange of packaging knowledge
    and some common team feeling.

    - Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?

    Not really.

    I'd recommend to actively think about this. While its a time consuming
    task to seek for new contributors it might have a nice return of
    investment. I'd specifically try to involve upstream into packaging
    efforts. Usually upstreams are happy if their code is packaged for
    Debian (not sure if this is true in the Java world). Providing them
    with some packaging knowledge might be a shortcut to packages that
    receive good testing by people who perfectly know the functionality.

    The problems Pierre described with upgrading Gradle might be some
    indication that some more skilled packagers could help.

    - In my packaging work I frequently contacted Java packaging team and
    usually got help very quickly - thanks a lot for this. The only
    thing I was not happy about is the fact that the team decided to make
    the usage of Salsa CI extra hard. I've contacted the Salsa CI team
    before and explicitly asked about this policy. They do not understand
    and recommend to run Salsa CI as default but by no means even hide
    the button to switch it on. Would you mind changing your policy about
    this?

    There is no policy regarding Salsa CI in the Java Team, anyone who wishes to use it is free to do so.

    I intentionally linked to some response I once received[2] which says: "java-team have pipelines disabled by default". I consider this a
    really unfortunate blocker to simply switch on Salsa CI. If there is no
    policy to use Salsa CI or not please make sure developers will not need
    extra hurdles to switch it on.

    Personally, I do not because it doesn't add value
    to my workflow. I'm also not a fan of the IRC spam induced, and in times of energy sobriety I feel that's a non-essential tool we can do without.

    Regarding the "IRC spam": IMHO this is not a Salsa CI feature but
    rather the KGB bot you can switch of. For me as someone who barely
    speaks any Java and just crossing fingers that the upstream build system
    works flawlessly it helps a lot to have some build log available online
    very easily which I can link to in some mail to the Debian Java list to
    get further help. This might be true for potential newcomers as well.

    - Can I do anything for you?

    Just keep the good work :)

    Thank you
    Andreas.

    [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-java/2021/04/msg00025.html

    --
    https://fam-tille.de

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  • From Emmanuel Bourg@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 25 23:10:01 2024
    Le 17/06/2024 à 08:16, Andreas Tille a écrit :

    The problems Pierre described with upgrading Gradle might be some
    indication that some more skilled packagers could help.

    We would need a core Gradle and/or Kotlin developer to tackle this
    issue, but I don't think they are interested in spending days or weeks
    figuring out an upgrade path for old versions of Gradle.


    I intentionally linked to some response I once received[2] which says: "java-team have pipelines disabled by default". I consider this a
    really unfortunate blocker to simply switch on Salsa CI. If there is no policy to use Salsa CI or not please make sure developers will not need
    extra hurdles to switch it on.

    If I remember well, the repository creation script [1] for the Java team disables the CI feature, because at the time it was written the Salsa CI
    wasn't implemented yet.


    Regarding the "IRC spam": IMHO this is not a Salsa CI feature but
    rather the KGB bot you can switch of.

    I'd like KGB to report commits but not CI builds, if that's possible.


    For me as someone who barely
    speaks any Java and just crossing fingers that the upstream build system works flawlessly it helps a lot to have some build log available online
    very easily which I can link to in some mail to the Debian Java list to
    get further help. This might be true for potential newcomers as well.

    That's indeed a convenience, but with an energy cost and a CO2 impact on
    the planet.

    Emmanuel Bourg

    [1] https://salsa.debian.org/java-team/pkg-java-scripts/-/blob/master/setup-salsa-repository

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  • From gregor herrmann@21:1/5 to Emmanuel Bourg on Tue Jun 25 23:40:02 2024
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 23:06:59 +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:

    Regarding the "IRC spam": IMHO this is not a Salsa CI feature but
    rather the KGB bot you can switch of.
    I'd like KGB to report commits but not CI builds, if that's possible.

    In the Perl team we're using https://kgb.debian.net/webhook/?channel=debian-perl-changes&pipeline_only_status=success&pipeline_only_status=failed
    AFAIK this doesn't eliminate Ssalsa CI message but limits them to one
    line with the final result (I was also annoyed by the Salsa CI
    message flood). (And it's a separe channel (for KGB with both commits
    and Salsa messages, separate from the discussion channel.)


    Cheers,
    greggor

    --
    .''`. https://info.comodo.priv.at -- Debian Developer https://www.debian.org
    : :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D 85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06
    `. `' Member VIBE!AT & SPI Inc. -- Supporter Free Software Foundation Europe
    `-

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  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 26 11:00:01 2024
    Hi Emmanuel,

    Am Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 11:06:59PM +0200 schrieb Emmanuel Bourg:
    The problems Pierre described with upgrading Gradle might be some indication that some more skilled packagers could help.

    We would need a core Gradle and/or Kotlin developer to tackle this issue,
    but I don't think they are interested in spending days or weeks figuring out an upgrade path for old versions of Gradle.

    I don't have the slightest idea about the technical details but I've
    seen good cooperation for instance to get bazel packaged and other
    fruitful cooperations with upstream. Finally I do not think it is good
    if Debian is lagging behind gradle upstream more and more and we somehow
    need to catch up. IMHO at least we should try and if I can help out
    to establish this contact as DPL I'd happily help here.

    I intentionally linked to some response I once received[2] which says: "java-team have pipelines disabled by default". I consider this a
    really unfortunate blocker to simply switch on Salsa CI. If there is no policy to use Salsa CI or not please make sure developers will not need extra hurdles to switch it on.

    If I remember well, the repository creation script [1] for the Java team disables the CI feature, because at the time it was written the Salsa CI wasn't implemented yet.

    I can only say that java-team is the only team space I know with this
    extra hard setting to switch on Salsa-CI. If you are willing to change
    this but have no idea how this can be done I'd volunteer to find out the
    needed information.

    Regarding the "IRC spam": IMHO this is not a Salsa CI feature but
    rather the KGB bot you can switch of.

    I'd like KGB to report commits but not CI builds, if that's possible.

    Usually these things are configurable. I have no idea how but if this
    is your main reason to not enable Salsa CI I would also try to find this information.

    For me as someone who barely
    speaks any Java and just crossing fingers that the upstream build system works flawlessly it helps a lot to have some build log available online very easily which I can link to in some mail to the Debian Java list to
    get further help. This might be true for potential newcomers as well.

    That's indeed a convenience, but with an energy cost and a CO2 impact on the planet.

    I've heard that CO2 saving argument in connection with Salsa CI. As you
    might have read in my platform I personally care for the environment.
    In this regard its really hard to draw a line. You could argue that we
    should not support old, power hungry architectures, stop this or that
    service etc. I do not consider the discussion on that level as fruitful.

    Kind regards
    Andreas.

    [1] https://salsa.debian.org/java-team/pkg-java-scripts/-/blob/master/setup-salsa-repository

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