XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

Package: installation-reports

Debian-installer-version: 06-Aug-2004 23:18 http://cdimage.debian.org/pub/cdimage-testing/sarge_d-i/i386/rc1/sarge-i386-netinst.iso
uname -a: Linux 2.4.26-1-386 (plus other stuff)
Date: Aug 11, 2004, 9pm
Method: Booted from CD

Machine: Toshiba Sattellite 1130
Processor: Celeron 2.2 GHz
Memory: 256 MB
Root Device: /dev/hda3
Root Size/partition table:
Output of lspci:

Base System Installation Checklist:

Initial boot worked: [x]
Configure network HW: [x]
Config network: [x]
Detect CD: [x]
Load installer modules: [x]
Detect hard drives: [x]
Partition hard drives: [E]
Create file systems: [ ]
Mount partitions: [ ]
Install base system: [ ]
Install boot loader: [ ]
Reboot: [ ]
[O] = OK, [E] = Error (please elaborate below), [ ] = didn't try it

Comments/Problems:

I was curious to see if I could resize a vfat windows partition using the partitioning tool on the sarge RC1 installation CD. I have 1 vfat
partition already set up.

In the "Partition Disks" menu, I saw the sentence: "Select a partition to modify its settings (file system, mount point, etc.)". But unfortunately
the word "resize" was nowhere to be found. So I selected the vfat
partition and hit enter, thinking one setting (ie. that these "etc"
settings might include) will be "resize partition" if I'm lucky.

The next screen, also called "Partition Disks", and under "Partition
Settings", Size is shown to be 6.1 GB. The word "resize" did not appear anywhere on this screen either!! So I was about to give up that it was
even possible to resize the partition, but in a giddy moment of reckless abandon, I hit enter on the line that I assumed merely reported the size
of the partition. Then the screen went all blue and my disk LED started thrashing madly! I was freaked out: was it erasing my Windows partition?
WTF? There was no informational message like "scanning the partition,
please wait". There needs to be an informational message during that
minute where it paused to scan the vfat partition!

After about a minute of nervous disk thrashing, then I was offered a
screen saying "Before resize operation takes place, the changes have to be written to disk. You cannot undo this operation. Write the changes to
disk and resize the partition?"

So all of a sudden I'm about to do a partition resizing! I was relieved
(that no harm was done), excited (that resizing is possible) and annoyed
(that resizing wasn't mentioned at all up until that point), all at the
same time.

Partition resizing during installation is a HUGE feature, as it opens up
the path for Windows users to add Linux to their systems without losing
their current Windows install.

So please mention any partition resizing capabilities prominently in the partitioning utility if it's possible whatsoever! A menu option called something like "resize this partition" or "partition resizing
possibilities" is very important! Or even the word "resizable" printed
beside potentially resizable partitions (when all partitions are shown in
a chart) would be helpful.

Also, the installation documentation here: http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#id2514217
which talks about partitioning never mentions the word "resize". I expect
this documentation to at least mention which types of partition are in
fact resizable: vfat? (apparently yes, I didn't actually perform it)
ntfs? (I hope yes!) ext2? ext3? resierfs?

This additional information may be pivotal in people deciding to install
Debian whatsoever, as many people aren't ready to risk losing their
current Windows install, and don't have access to commercial software like Partition Magic. Even mentioning the resizing capabilites possible with "qtparted", seen here:
http://qtparted.sourceforge.net/features.en.html
...which is included on the bootable Linux utility CD "System Rescue CD", available here:
http://www.sysresccd.org/
...may lead to tons more Debian deployments. I know of one friend who
would install Sarge right now if he knew that the Sarge installation CD
could resize an NTFS partition during installation (or knew of a utility
that could in a proven fashion).

Having said this, I have not attempted to resize an NTFS partition with
the latest version of qtparted (which is 0.4.4). Has anyone else?
Reliably? Unreliably? After applying Windows XP service pack 2? ;)

Dustin Harriman

Root Shell Computer Support
http://rootshell.ca

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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

I agree with this. I found the partitioning to be a
bit confusing. Fortunately I did not have a Windoze
partition to wory about and I had backed up my /home.


--- Dustin Harriman <[email protected]> wrote:

Package: installation-reports

Debian-installer-version: 06-Aug-2004 23:18

http://cdimage.debian.org/pub/cdimage-testing/sarge_d-i/i386/rc1/sarge-i386-netinst.iso

uname -a: Linux 2.4.26-1-386 (plus other stuff)
Date: Aug 11, 2004, 9pm
Method: Booted from CD

Machine: Toshiba Sattellite 1130
Processor: Celeron 2.2 GHz
Memory: 256 MB
Root Device: /dev/hda3
Root Size/partition table:
Output of lspci:

Base System Installation Checklist:

Initial boot worked: [x]
Configure network HW: [x]
Config network: [x]
Detect CD: [x]
Load installer modules: [x]
Detect hard drives: [x]
Partition hard drives: [E]
Create file systems: [ ]
Mount partitions: [ ]
Install base system: [ ]
Install boot loader: [ ]
Reboot: [ ]
[O] = OK, [E] = Error (please elaborate below), [ ]
= didn't try it

Comments/Problems:

I was cur

XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

Paul Harper wrote:

I agree with this. I found the partitioning to be a
bit confusing. Fortunately I did not have a Windoze
partition to wory about and I had backed up my /home.

In contrast, I installed SuSE the other day, intending to trash my
Windows98. However, the installer explicitly offered to resize the
partition and gave me a (GUI) knob to drag along a slider to choose the
size I wanted.

It was clear that I could do it, easy to do when I chose the option.





--

Cheers
John

-- spambait
[email protected] [email protected]
Tourist pics http://portgeographe.environmentaldisasters.cds.merseine.nu/



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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

reassign 265194 partman-partitioning
thanks

On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:04:41PM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

So I was about to give up that it was
even possible to resize the partition, but in a giddy moment of reckless abandon, I hit enter on the line that I assumed merely reported the size
of the partition. Then the screen went all blue and my disk LED started thrashing madly! I was freaked out: was it erasing my Windows partition? WTF? There was no informational message like "scanning the partition,
please wait". There needs to be an informational message during that
minute where it paused to scan the vfat partition!

I can not remember such a long pause here and I don't know which part of resizing script is causing it.

Also, the installation documentation here: http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#id2514217
which talks about partitioning never mentions the word "resize". I expect this documentation to at least mention which types of partition are in
fact resizable: vfat? (apparently yes, I didn't actually perform it)

Yes.

ntfs? (I hope yes!)

No. ntfs is completely unsupported by d-i although so many file systems
are supported.

ext2? ext3?

Yes.

reiserfs?

I don't know. Depends on whether libreiserfs is installed in the
installer or not.

If the user tries to resize a partition with unsupported file system the following happens:

1. If the partition doesn't exist on the disk (because it is new) then
it is immediately resized

2. If the partition exists on the disk then
a. the user sees a confirmation dialog
b. the changes are written to the disk
c. partman attemts to resize (it simply uses the capability of
parted)
d. parted fails but partman doesn't care about this
e. the user is returned to the main partitioning screen where the
partition has its old size

Having said this, I have not attempted to resize an NTFS partition with
the latest version of qtparted (which is 0.4.4). Has anyone else?
Reliably? Unreliably? After applying Windows XP service pack 2? ;)

I know nothing about ntfs. :(

Anton Zinoviev



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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 10:04:41PM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

Also, the installation documentation here:
http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#id2514217
which talks about partitioning never mentions the word "resize".

Showing this diagram (with better formatting) in the docs (above) would go
a long way:

File system detect create resize copy check
ext2 * * *1 *2 *3
ext3 * *1 *2 *3
fat16 * * *4 *5 *
fat32 * * * * *
linux-swap * * * * *
HFS *
JFS *
NTFS *
ReiserFS * *6 *1, 6 *6 *6
UFS *
XFS *
Supported operations

Notes:

1. For ext2, ext3 and reiserfs: the start of the partition must stay
fixed.
2. For ext2, ext3: the partition you copy to must be bigger or exactly
the same size as the partition you copy from.
3. For ext2 and ext3: the checking is limited to ensuring the resize
and copy commands will be ok.
4. For fat: the size of the new partition after resizing or copying is restricted by the cluster size. Parted can shrink the cluster size, so
you can always shrink your partition. However, if you can't use FAT32
for some reason, you may not be able to grow your partition.
5. Parted supports both FAT16 and FAT32. Parted can convert file
systems between FAT16 and FAT32, if necessary.
6. Reiserfs support is enabled if you install libreiserfs, available at http://reiserfs.osdn.org.ua. (It is likely to be availabe soon from http://www.namesys.com)

This diagram came straight from:
http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/parted.html

I
expect
this documentation to at least mention which types of partition are in
fact resizable:
ntfs? (I hope yes!)

No. ntfs is completely unsupported by d-i although so many file systems
are supported.

Ouch. Of all filesystem types to be able to resize, this one is the most sorely missed by a long shot, IMHO. This is because most PC's out there
have one big NTFS partition on them (as shipped by virtually all PC
vendors, having Windows XP pre-installed). IMHO, Therefore a huge
majority of "Windows refugees" would want this feature.

This additional information may be pivotal in people deciding to install
Debian whatsoever, as many people aren't ready to risk losing their
current Windows install, and don't have access to commercial software
likePartition Magic. Even mentioning the resizing capabilites possible
with "qtparted", seen here:
http://qtparted.sourceforge.net/features.en.html
...which is included on the bootable Linux utility CD "System Rescue CD",
available here:
http://www.sysresccd.org/
...may lead to tons more Debian deployments. I know of one friend who
would install Sarge right now if he knew that the Sarge installation CD
could resize an NTFS partition during installation (or knew of a utility
that could in a proven fashion).

Upon further investigation, "qtparted" is just a fancy gui that makes
calls to command line utilities. To resize NTFS partitions, it calls the "ntfsresize" command, which comes in the Debian package "ntfstools". The version of ntfstools in sarge and sid is version 1.9.0-1, however the
newest version is 1.9.2, available in a statically linked format here:

http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html#static

Due to it being statically linked, how realistic would it be to include it
in d-i, and have it be usable by the partitioning utility alongside GNU
parted? Is there some political reason that GNU parted must be the only utility allowing the resizing of partitions?

In other words, are there any non-obvious barriers to adding NTFS resizing
in d-i, granted the ntfsresize utility is sitting there begging to be used
for this purpose?

Anton Zinoviev

Thanks for your explanations of how the partitioning utility in d-i works, Anton. It helped clear up alot of confusion.

Dustin Harriman

Root Shell Computer Support
http://rootshell.ca

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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 09:48:28AM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

Showing this diagram (with better formatting) in the docs (above) would go
a long way:

partman can create file systems that parted cannot. But you are right
that the installation manual lacks an information about resizing and
copying abilities.

1. For ext2, ext3 and reiserfs: the start of the partition must stay fixed.

In the present implementation in partman the start of the partition
stays fixed also for fat16 and fat32.

2. For ext2, ext3: the partition you copy to must be bigger or exactly
the same size as the partition you copy from.

Ok.

3. For ext2 and ext3: the checking is limited to ensuring the resize
and copy commands will be ok.

Partman doesn't check the file system visibly so there is no need to
mention this in the manual.

4. For fat: the size of the new partition after resizing or copying is restricted by the cluster size. Parted can shrink the cluster size, so
you can always shrink your partition. However, if you can't use FAT32
for some reason, you may not be able to grow your partition.
5. Parted supports both FAT16 and FAT32. Parted can convert file
systems between FAT16 and FAT32, if necessary.

Ok.

6. Reiserfs support is enabled if you install libreiserfs, available at http://reiserfs.osdn.org.ua. (It is likely to be availabe soon from http://www.namesys.com)

I haven't checked whether libreiserfs is packaged as udeb.

IMHO, Therefore a huge majority of "Windows refugees" would want this feature.

I agree.

Upon further investigation, "qtparted" is just a fancy gui that makes
calls to command line utilities. To resize NTFS partitions, it calls the "ntfsresize" command, which comes in the Debian package "ntfstools".

Partman doesn't use parted as a command line utility but in principe it
is possible to invoke ntfsresize.

Is there some political reason that GNU parted must be the only
utility allowing the resizing of partitions?

One reason that there is no enough time before the release of sarge (but
who knows). Another reason is that ntfstools are not yet packaged as
udeb.

In other words, are there any non-obvious barriers to adding NTFS resizing
in d-i, granted the ntfsresize utility is sitting there begging to be used for this purpose?

No. However I think there are some efforts to add to parted support to
resize ntfs by external library (as this is done with reiserfs).

Anton Zinoviev




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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

No. However I think there are some efforts to add to parted support to resize ntfs by external library (as this is done with reiserfs).

It seems quite unlikely that ntfs resizing will get into GNU parted
anytime soon. The GNU parted mailing list shows very little actvity in
this regard over the last year or even years. So "ntfstools" (the command
line programs) and "libntfs5" (the library) seem much more
realistic/quicker routes to get NTFS resizing into d-i.

A few interesting points I thought I'd share after some investigation:

I also see that d-i includes many .deb files that are not in .udeb format.
In the interests of expediating a "killer feature" (IMHO) into Debian
Sarge, is it feasible the just include a "non-udeb" ntfstools package in
d-i, and make simple system calls to ntfsresize from partman?

I've inspected the changelogs for ntfsresize (to see if anything important
has changed since 1.9.0 (version in sarge, sid) and 1.9.2 (latest
version), and there is one possibly important, functional improvement, introduced in 1.9.1: "NTFS without a volume label can be resized now
also". Ummm, I guess that sounds important.

Perhaps I should submit this as a wishlist bug against partman...

Dustin Harriman

Root Shell Computer Support
http://rootshell.ca

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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:05:15PM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

No. However I think there are some efforts to add to parted support to resize ntfs by external library (as this is done with reiserfs).

It seems quite unlikely that ntfs resizing will get into GNU parted
anytime soon. The GNU parted mailing list shows very little actvity in
this regard over the last year or even years. So "ntfstools" (the command line programs) and "libntfs5" (the library) seem much more
realistic/quicker routes to get NTFS resizing into d-i.

But only because nobody got ahead and implemented it. Ideally both the ext2/3 and ntfs support should be modified in libparted to use the corresponding libraries.

A few interesting points I thought I'd share after some investigation:

I also see that d-i includes many .deb files that are not in .udeb format.
In the interests of expediating a "killer feature" (IMHO) into Debian
Sarge, is it feasible the just include a "non-udeb" ntfstools package in
d-i, and make simple system calls to ntfsresize from partman?

Nope, since those .deb are only installed once you have finished partitioning.

Friendly,

Sven Luther


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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:59:01PM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

Then apparently cfdisk can delete and recreate the partition around the smaller NTFS data, but I don't know the args.

Me too.

Anton Zinoviev




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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 03:05:15PM -0700, Dustin Harriman wrote:

So "ntfstools" (the command
line programs) and "libntfs5" (the library) seem much more
realistic/quicker routes to get NTFS resizing into d-i.

Ok.

I also see that d-i includes many .deb files that are not in .udeb format.
In the interests of expediating a "killer feature" (IMHO) into Debian
Sarge, is it feasible the just include a "non-udeb" ntfstools package in
d-i, and make simple system calls to ntfsresize from partman?

Feel free to file a wishlist bug report against ntfsresize for making an
udeb. If we have such a package in 20 days and there are no too much
unknown bugs in partman there will be chances to make the necessary
changes in partman before rc3 (provided that there will be rc3 at all).

Anton Zinoviev




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XPost: linux.debian.maint.boot
From: [email protected]

Feel free to file a wishlist bug report against ntfsresize for making an udeb.

Anton Zinoviev

OK, I've opened a new bug against linux-ntfs: 265617 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=265617

Thanks everyone for the info as I learn "the Debian way" (of development) :)


Dustin Harriman

Root Shell Computer Support
http://rootshell.ca

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