• Bug#253098: fix to jadetex based on tetex changes

    From Adam Di Carlo@1:229/2 to Jay Berkenbilt on Wed Aug 11 07:00:11 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    Jay Berkenbilt <[email protected]> writes:

    The patch fixes this problem by changing jadetex to work properly with
    .efmt files rather than the .fmt files it is now expecting.

    Is it really ok to switch from using tex to using etex?

    Why is this necessary?

    In what exactly version of tetex was this change made?

    It also makes jadetex a link to etex and pdfjadetex a link to
    pdfetex. I have prepared the patch to NMU jadetex, but presumably
    the jadetex maintainer will accept the patch and make it a regular
    upload instead. (I've just gotten into the habit of preparing my
    patches to create NMUs, since if the package does get an NMU, it
    takes less effort!)

    Sorry I didn't see this bug report.

    If someone else wants to take over jadetex maintenance, I'm happy to
    wash my hands of it. Frankly, I'm quite annoyed by the way tetex is maintained, specifically, the way they make changes in tetex without
    notifying other packages maintainers that they are about to break
    things. This has happened several times in the past.

    Obviously, the way this NMU was handled was incorrect, since it's
    raised another grave but in its place.

    --
    .....Adam Di [email protected].....<URL:http://www.debian.org/>



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  • From Hilmar Preusse@1:229/2 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 11 11:00:13 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    On 11.08.04 Adam Di Carlo ([email protected]) wrote:
    Jay Berkenbilt <[email protected]> writes:

    Hi,

    The patch fixes this problem by changing jadetex to work properly with .efmt files rather than the .fmt files it is now expecting.

    Is it really ok to switch from using tex to using etex?

    Not really necessary, but strongly recommended: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.latex.latex3/330

    Why is this necessary?

    Well, I've seen already LaTeX code in the net, which runs through
    etex, but not Knuth tex. The next TeX Live and the next teTeX will
    not have the Knuth compiler at all.

    In what exactly version of tetex was this change made?

    -16 -> -17

    tetex-bin (2.0.2-17) unstable; urgency=high

    * We now use e-TeX (and pdfe-TeX) as our basic engines for
    (pdf)LaTeX. See REAMDE.Debian for details. Many thanks to Hilmar
    for this. [frank]

    -- Frank Küster <[email protected]> Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:34:23 +0200

    It also makes jadetex a link to etex and pdfjadetex a link to
    pdfetex. I have prepared the patch to NMU jadetex, but presumably
    the jadetex maintainer will accept the patch and make it a regular
    upload instead. (I've just gotten into the habit of preparing my
    patches to create NMUs, since if the package does get an NMU, it
    takes less effort!)

    Sorry I didn't see this bug report.

    If someone else wants to take over jadetex maintenance, I'm happy
    to wash my hands of it. Frankly, I'm quite annoyed by the way
    tetex is maintained, specifically, the way they make changes in
    tetex without notifying other packages maintainers that they are
    about to break things. This has happened several times in the
    past.

    Sorry for that! We didn't notice, that jadetex explicitly checks for
    the existence of special formats in post* ....

    H.
    --
    Any time things appear to be going better, you have overlooked something.
    http://hilmarpreusse.forum-rheinland.de/


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  • From Hilmar Preusse@1:229/2 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 11 11:00:15 2004
    From: [email protected]

    On 08.08.04 Jay Berkenbilt ([email protected]) wrote:

    Hi all,

    The patch fixes this problem by changing jadetex to work properly with
    .efmt files rather than the .fmt files it is now expecting. It also
    makes jadetex a link to etex and pdfjadetex a link to pdfetex. I
    have prepared the patch to NMU jadetex, but presumably the jadetex
    maintainer will accept the patch and make it a regular upload
    instead. (I've just gotten into the habit of preparing my patches
    to create NMUs, since if the package does get an NMU, it takes less
    effort!)

    After rebuilding the package with this patch applied, I can now
    install jadetex in a pbuilder environment and then run both jadetex
    and pdfjadetex on a suitable file and see the output as expected.

    --- debian/fmtutil.cnf.qdist 2004-08-07 22:45:05.000000000 -0400
    +++ debian/fmtutil.cnf 2004-08-07 22:46:36.000000000 -0400
    @@ -2,6 +2,6 @@
    # invoke with 'fmtutil --cnffile <file>'
    #
    # format engine pattern-file arguments
    -jadetex tex language.dat &latex jadetex.ini -pdfjadetex pdftex language.dat &pdflatex pdfjadetex.ini
    +jadetex etex language.dat &latex jadetex.ini +pdfjadetex pdfetex language.dat &pdflatex pdfjadetex.ini

    Is guess that file is installed as /etc/texmf/fmt.d/xxjadetex.cnf and
    then (hopefully) update-fmtutil is called. Perhaps it is a good idea
    to write *jadetex.ini instead of jadetex.ini.

    H., will have a look at the other grave bug.
    --
    sigmentation fault


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  • From Adam Di Carlo@1:229/2 to Hilmar Preusse on Wed Aug 11 11:10:11 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    Hilmar Preusse <[email protected]> writes:

    Well, I've seen already LaTeX code in the net, which runs through
    etex, but not Knuth tex.

    I don't think that's relevant for me. All jadetex is produced by
    OpenJade or Jade.

    The next TeX Live and the next teTeX will not have the Knuth
    compiler at all.

    Well, rather than calling it 'etex', at that point, it would just be
    the 'tex' command, right?

    I don't know that I wanna switch everything to use etex/pdfetex now
    and then have to switch back later.

    Sorry for that! We didn't notice, that jadetex explicitly checks for
    the existence of special formats in post* ....

    Special formats? I simply check that the memory dumps are generated,
    and that memory dumps for any required packages are present.
    In a nutshell:

    kpsewhich latex.fmt
    kpsewhich pdftex.fmt
    kpsewhich pdflatex.fmt

    Is there anything wrong or buggy in doing this?

    Unless the tetex maintainers tell me I really ought to change from tex
    to etex at this point in the freeze, I'd rather leave it as it is.

    --
    .....Adam Di [email protected].....<URL:http://www.debian.org/>



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  • From Hilmar Preusse@1:229/2 to [email protected] on Wed Aug 11 12:40:11 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    On 11.08.04 Adam Di Carlo ([email protected]) wrote:
    Hilmar Preusse <[email protected]> writes:

    Hi,

    The next TeX Live and the next teTeX will not have the Knuth
    compiler at all.

    Well, rather than calling it 'etex', at that point, it would just be
    the 'tex' command, right?

    Yes. At this time all formats will be build by pdfetex except plain
    TeX. So all formats will be eformats, except tex.fmt. The statement
    above "will not have the Knuth compiler at all" is not true for
    TeX Live beta. Sorry! Dunno about final, as it's not released.

    Sorry for that! We didn't notice, that jadetex explicitly checks
    for the existence of special formats in post* ....

    Special formats? I simply check that the memory dumps are generated,
    and that memory dumps for any required packages are present.
    In a nutshell:

    kpsewhich latex.fmt
    kpsewhich pdftex.fmt
    kpsewhich pdflatex.fmt

    Is there anything wrong or buggy in doing this?

    I have no clue, why you do that at all. AFAICS jadetex depends on
    tetex-bin. It won't configure until tetex-bin has the state ii. If
    this is the case you have a working teTeX system^1 and all formats to
    run TeX, LaTeX etc. do exist. Independent of if they are called
    latex.fmt or latex.efmt.
    What am I missing? Do you really need latex.fmt? I think, we'll
    create it again in next release (I'm afraid that won't happen before
    next week).

    Unless the tetex maintainers tell me I really ought to change from
    tex to etex at this point in the freeze, I'd rather leave it as it
    is.

    OK, your decision. I can can only give you the advise to do so.

    H.

    ^1 If fmtutil --all fails tetex-bin won't configure
    --
    Nothing will dispel enthusiasm like a small admission fee.
    -- Kim Hubbard
    http://hilmarpreusse.forum-rheinland.de/


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  • From Adam Di Carlo@1:229/2 to Hilmar Preusse on Wed Aug 11 18:50:09 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    Hilmar Preusse <[email protected]> writes:

    I have no clue, why you do that at all. AFAICS jadetex depends on
    tetex-bin. It won't configure until tetex-bin has the state ii. If
    this is the case you have a working teTeX system^1 and all formats to
    run TeX, LaTeX etc. do exist. Independent of if they are called
    latex.fmt or latex.efmt.

    Erm, I wish that were true. The fact is, I've seen plenty of cases
    where tetex-bin is fully installed but the format files are not there.
    Suppose the user breaks configuration and then run fmtutil --all? See
    the jadetex changelog and the archived bugs if you don't believe me.

    --
    .....Adam Di [email protected].....<URL:http://www.debian.org/>



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  • From Jay Berkenbilt@1:229/2 to All on Wed Aug 11 23:10:08 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    To all --

    I apologize for stirring up this problem with my patches to jadetex.
    The only thing I'm not sorry about is getting this conversation
    started, since the problem clearly needs to be resolved. :-)

    One mistake I definitely made was to not read the bug report carefully
    enough. In the fervor of trying to clear up issues that were
    impacting the tiff transition, I fell into the dangerous trap of
    moving too quickly. Luckily, there are enough checks and balances in
    place that someone else could quickly correct my mistake. Adam,
    thanks for doing that!

    That aside, there's been a lot of discussion, but I'm not sure there's
    a resolution. Here's my understanding of the points:

    * The decision to switch LaTeX to use etex instead of tex was made
    deliberately.

    * Not everyone agrees about whether this fix was appropriate so close
    to the release.

    * The tetex maintainers acknowledge that this fix caused an
    incompatibility that broke other packages. This must be addressed
    in some way regardless of whether the other packages are behaving
    in the way the tetex maintainers would like them to.

    It also seems clear to me that there is a discussion going on between
    tetex and jadetex maintainers that should hopefully converge on some
    solution that means jadetex and tetex installs and upgrades all
    succeed.

    As the pot stirrer, I don't think I have a further role in this except
    that I will post a separate RC bug documenting the pbuilder
    installation failure (as requested by Adam). Unless I hear otherwise,
    I'll back out, having confidence that the right thing will happen with
    a proper bug report and the knowledge that these RC bugs must be
    cleared for the packages to move into sarge.

    Thanks again, and sorry for creating any unnecessary confusion by
    making incorrect fixes or posting things to the wrong place.

    --
    Jay Berkenbilt <[email protected]>
    http://www.ql.org/q/


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  • From Hilmar Preusse@1:229/2 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 13 23:50:08 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    On 11.08.04 Adam Di Carlo ([email protected]) wrote:
    Hilmar Preusse <[email protected]> writes:

    Hi *,

    I have no clue, why you do that at all. AFAICS jadetex depends on tetex-bin. It won't configure until tetex-bin has the state ii. If
    this is the case you have a working teTeX system^1 and all formats to
    run TeX, LaTeX etc. do exist. Independent of if they are called
    latex.fmt or latex.efmt.

    Erm, I wish that were true.

    Me too. Yes I have the feeling too, that the whole tetex packaging is
    rather fragile...

    The fact is, I've seen plenty of cases where tetex-bin is fully
    installed but the format files are not there. Suppose the user
    breaks configuration and then run fmtutil --all?

    IIRC fmtutil --all doesn't remove formats, which existed earlier.

    See the jadetex changelog and the archived bugs if you don't
    believe me.

    Yes, I believe you. See above. Must have forgotten the smiley.

    H.
    --
    <Crow-> who gives a shit about US law
    <jim> anyone living in the US.
    http://hilmarpreusse.forum-rheinland.de/


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  • From Hilmar Preusse@1:229/2 to [email protected] on Fri Aug 13 23:40:09 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    On 11.08.04 Jay Berkenbilt ([email protected]) wrote:

    Hi *,

    That aside, there's been a lot of discussion, but I'm not sure
    there's a resolution. Here's my understanding of the points:

    * The decision to switch LaTeX to use etex instead of tex was made
    deliberately.

    Yes.

    * Not everyone agrees about whether this fix was appropriate so close
    to the release.

    I discussed that on debian-tetex-maint, and got only one answer. He
    agreed. Yes, sorry the whole story came to my attention quite late.

    It also seems clear to me that there is a discussion going on between
    tetex and jadetex maintainers that should hopefully converge on some
    solution that means jadetex and tetex installs and upgrades all
    succeed.

    Fixed.

    H., don't read my sig!
    --
    You should go home.
    http://hilmarpreusse.forum-rheinland.de/


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  • From =?iso-8859-1?q?Frank_K=FCster?=@1:229/2 to Adam Di Carlo on Mon Aug 16 10:40:09 2004
    XPost: linux.debian.maint.tetex
    From: [email protected]

    Adam Di Carlo <[email protected]> wrote:

    Erm, I wish that were true. The fact is, I've seen plenty of cases
    where tetex-bin is fully installed but the format files are not there.

    This should have been reported (or reassigned, duplicated, whatever) as
    tetex bugs, I think.

    Suppose the user breaks configuration and then run fmtutil --all? See
    the jadetex changelog and the archived bugs if you don't believe me.

    What do you mean, specifically? I found:

    ,----
    | closes: #183285, #196151, #196027
    |
    | NB: last two bugs filed against tetex-bin; 'grr' to the tetex
    | maintainers for making this change without giving me any heads up
    `----

    (don't know whether you Cc-ed this to our list; I had read #183285
    before, but not the others).

    - I think we need a clear policy for the teTeX packages and depending
    packages. This is an (the) important issue post-sarge. We'd better
    discuss and finish it before we start working on the other big tetex
    issue, the package splitting.

    - Please don't hesitate to send us copies of your discussions in bug
    reports to [email protected]. We have a hell lot of work yet,
    and I think nobody of us has the time to follow debian-bugs-dist or
    subscribe to the package tracking systems of packages depending on
    ours. In fact I must confess that I don't even have a list of all
    packages depending on tetex, and which of them just use it, or which
    create own formats, have own input files, etc.

    Regards, Frank

    --
    Frank K�ster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel
    Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie

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