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  • When will KDE work properly again?

    From Gary Dale@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 28 17:00:01 2024
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 system. I recently did a fresh
    install of Bookworm followed by a full-upgrade to Trixie, and it didn't
    fix anything. BTW: this is with a fresh user home as well.

    I've been trying both X and Wayland and they both show similar failings:

    1. despite having the desktop set to restore the session on last
    logout, it doesn't. Indeed, right now that only app that seems to
    open is GKrellM
    2. When I try to shut down or start my computer, I don't get the panel
    that gives me options. Instead the computer becomes non-responsive
    for 30 seconds before doing what I asked on the menu (same if I hit
    ctrl-alt-del).
    3. When I open a window, it doesn't restore to the previous size or
    position.

    I'm using Wayland right now, and it's not really living up to its hype
    as being faster than X. When I try to log back in after the screen
    locks, I have to wait until the screen actually wakes up before I can
    enter my password.

    While neither window system is working well right now, Wayland is by far
    the more problematic. I end up having to close active applications after
    waking the screen back up just to be able to use them again (e.g.
    Scribus). After waiting for more than a decade, I have to question
    whether Wayland will ever be ready for Prime Time.


    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <p>I'm running Debian/Trixie on an AMD64 system. I recently did a
    fresh install of Bookworm followed by a full-upgrade to Trixie,
    and it didn't fix anything. BTW: this is with a fresh user home as
    well.</p>
    <p>I've been trying both X and Wayland and they both show similar
    failings:</p>
    <ol>
    <li>despite having the desktop set to restore the session on last
    logout, it doesn't. Indeed, right now that only app that seems
    to open is GKrellM</li>
    <li>When I try to shut down or start my computer, I don't get the
    panel that gives me options. Instead the computer becomes
    non-responsive for 30 seconds before doing what I asked on the
    menu (same if I hit ctrl-alt-del).</li>
    <li>When I open a window, it doesn't restore to the previous size
    or position.</li>
    </ol>
    <p>I'm using Wayland right now, and it's not really living up to its
    hype as being faster than X. When I try to log back in after the
    screen locks, I have to wait until the screen actually wakes up
    before I can enter my password. </p>
    <p>While neither window system is working well right now, Wayland is
    by far the more problematic. I end up having to close active
    applications after waking the screen back up just to be able to
    use them again (e.g. Scribus). After waiting for more than a
    decade, I have to question whether Wayland will ever be ready for
    Prime Time.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From Johannes Zarl-Zierl@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 28 21:30:01 2024
    Hi,

    Just to add some datapoints:

    I'm running sid on a AMD64/Ryzen 5 system with integrated graphics.

    Am Montag, 28. Oktober 2024, 16:50:55 CET schrieb Gary Dale:
    I've been trying both X and Wayland and they both show similar failings:

    1. despite having the desktop set to restore the session on last
    logout, it doesn't. Indeed, right now that only app that seems to
    open is GKrellM

    I experience this, too. There's a bug report for it: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1073293

    2. When I try to shut down or start my computer, I don't get the panel
    that gives me options. Instead the computer becomes non-responsive
    for 30 seconds before doing what I asked on the menu (same if I hit
    ctrl-alt-del).

    I can't say that I've seen this kind of behaviour on my specific system.

    3. When I open a window, it doesn't restore to the previous size or
    position.

    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.

    I'm using Wayland right now, and it's not really living up to its hype
    as being faster than X. When I try to log back in after the screen
    locks, I have to wait until the screen actually wakes up before I can
    enter my password.

    I've recently switched to Wayland because X11 was kind of broken on sid for a little time, IIRC. Entering my password before the display wakes up works fine here.

    Cheers,
    Johannes

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  • From M G Berberich@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 29 10:00:01 2024
    Hello,

    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:

    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.

    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.

    MfG
    bmg

    --
    „Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
    sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!“ | [email protected] (SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg) |

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  • From Johannes Zarl-Zierl@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 29 22:40:01 2024
    Hi bmg,

    Am Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024, 09:36:58 CET schrieb M G Berberich:
    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.

    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.

    Apart from the session management currently not working at all, that was not what I meant. The window manager *is* able to position windows anywhere on the screen, but the application itself can not say "I want to open myself at position X,Y" as it could on X11 (if my information is correct).

    Virtual desktops are totally unaffected by this anyways and have nothing to do with window position.

    Cheers,
    Johannes

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  • From Gary Dale@21:1/5 to Johannes Zarl-Zierl on Wed Oct 30 15:10:01 2024
    On 2024-10-29 17:12, Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote:
    Hi bmg,

    Am Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024, 09:36:58 CET schrieb M G Berberich:
    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm >>> mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.
    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.
    Apart from the session management currently not working at all, that was not what I meant. The window manager *is* able to position windows anywhere on the
    screen, but the application itself can not say "I want to open myself at position X,Y" as it could on X11 (if my information is correct).

    Virtual desktops are totally unaffected by this anyways and have nothing to do
    with window position.

    Cheers,
    Johannes

    I've switched back to X11 because Wayland is worse. I also like that it
    offers finer-grained control of display scaling.

    My graphics card is a decade-old ASUS HD-7850 which I see no need to
    update because I'm not a "gamer". It handles my 4k display nicely and
    with entirely adequate speed for desktop apps and video editing.

    Under X11, I am now getting the desktop apps from the first virtual
    desktop remembering their positions but apart from GKrellM, nothing
    restores on the other desktops. This includes KDE apps such as Konsole,
    Dolphin and Kontact.

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  • From M G Berberich@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 16:10:01 2024
    Hello,

    Am Mittwoch, den 30. Oktober schrieb Gary Dale:
    I've switched back to X11 because Wayland is worse. I also like that it offers finer-grained control of display scaling.

    I would like to do this too, but on the laptop (a ‘convertible’) I
    need a virtual keyboard and Plasma 6 seems not to offer one for
    X11. And – if I remember correctly – neither do the digitizer/pen nor the touchscreen show up in systemsettings, even they are functioning. On
    wayland there is the maliit-keyboard which kind of works – most time.

    There is definitely room for improvement. :)

    MfG
    bmg

    --
    „Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
    sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!“ | [email protected] (SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg) |

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  • From Martin Steigerwald@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 15:50:01 2024
    Hi Gary, hi.

    I am quite busy with stuff this might be my only post on the matter.

    Gary Dale - 30.10.24, 15:08:57 MEZ:
    I've switched back to X11 because Wayland is worse. I also like that it offers finer-grained control of display scaling.

    I am still (again) on X11 for my main machine as well. For several
    reasons.

    Under X11, I am now getting the desktop apps from the first virtual
    desktop remembering their positions but apart from GKrellM, nothing
    restores on the other desktops. This includes KDE apps such as Konsole, Dolphin and Kontact.

    Please review the following previous mailing list thread completely:

    Re: Save session is not working after lastest upgrade

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-kde/2024/06/msg00009.html

    Despite the subject line there has not just been an issue on Wayland, but
    also on X11.

    Plasma 6 on X11 has session and activity restore issues fixed for me. It is really nice to see Kate, Okular and others reopen in exactly the same
    state again.

    It should not be that long anymore, before upload to unstable, but it also depends on coordinating with the release team as it is quite massive and
    there is some potential for breakage.

    Also Debian testing/unstable is called that for a reason. It is
    unfortunate at times, even frustrating, and for sure it would have been
    nice if the session restore issues in later Plasma 5 would have been fixed
    in Debian testing/unstable, but the team is busy with making sure we all
    can enjoy a supported Plasma deskop with the next stable release. Which is
    a huge task as it means migration to Qt 6, KF 6, Plasma 6. Basically all needs to be updated. If you choose testing/unstable then make is a
    conscious decision. It is not Debian stable after all.

    The team also needs help with bug triaging for example. There are a lot of very old bug reports still open.

    Also I find it important to discern: Non working session restore does not
    mean that nothing is working anymore as the subject line you have chosen
    would suggest. You have people working in their free time so that you can
    use the software… I find it important to remember that when giving
    feedback. Gratitude will bring you further than pointing at others.

    Best,
    --
    Martin - please no carbon copy to me

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  • From M G Berberich@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 30 16:20:01 2024
    Hello,

    Am Dienstag, den 29. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    Am Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024, 09:36:58 CET schrieb M G Berberich:
    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.

    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.

    Apart from the session management currently not working at all, that
    was not what I meant.

    Than I missunderstood.

    The window manager *is* able to position
    windows anywhere on the
    screen, but the application itself can not
    say "I want to open myseflf at position X,Y" as it could on X11 (if
    my information is correct). Virtual desktops are totally unaffected
    by this anyways and have nothing to do with window position.

    I’m wondering how the windowmanager knowns how to restore a lot of firefox-windows on the correct desktops…

    MfG
    bmg

    --
    „Des is völlig wurscht, was heut beschlos- | M G Berberich
    sen wird: I bin sowieso dagegn!“ | [email protected] (SPD-Stadtrat Kurt Schindler; Regensburg) |

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  • From Gary Dale@21:1/5 to M G Berberich on Sun Nov 17 16:30:01 2024
    On 2024-10-30 10:58, M G Berberich wrote:
    Hello,

    Am Dienstag, den 29. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    Am Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024, 09:36:58 CET schrieb M G Berberich:
    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but maybe I'm >>>> mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.
    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.
    Apart from the session management currently not working at all, that
    was not what I meant.
    Than I missunderstood.

    The window manager *is* able to position
    windows anywhere on the
    screen, but the application itself can not
    say "I want to open myseflf at position X,Y" as it could on X11 (if
    my information is correct). Virtual desktops are totally unaffected
    by this anyways and have nothing to do with window position.
    I’m wondering how the windowmanager knowns how to restore a lot of firefox-windows on the correct desktops…

    MfG
    bmg

    Pleased to see the Shutdown options panel appear when I went to reboot
    my workstation after this morning's full-upgrade. I'm still not seeing applications being restored unless they are on the first virtual desktop however - with the exception of gkrellm which restored properly on
    desktop 2 and filezilla which restored, but to desktop 1

    I decided to give Wayland another go but note that Spectacle's recording feature still does not appear to be working. And simple screen recorder
    still doesn't work with Wayland. This leaves me without a screen recorder.

    Please note: theses are not complaints against the people trying to make
    things work. This is simply a status report on the current state of
    affairs on my workstation.

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  • From Gary Dale@21:1/5 to Gary Dale on Sat Dec 14 16:00:01 2024
    On 2024-11-17 09:43, Gary Dale wrote:
    On 2024-10-30 10:58, M G Berberich wrote:
    Hello,

    Am Dienstag, den 29. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    Am Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024, 09:36:58 CET schrieb M G Berberich:
    Am Montag, den 28. Oktober schrieb Johannes Zarl-Zierl:
    I *think* restoring the position can't be done on wayland, but
    maybe I'm
    mistaken about that.
    Restoring window size does work for me, though.
    If this is true, it is showstopper.
    I’m heavily using virtual desktops and session management.
    Having a session “restored” by cluttering several dozends windows
    from 8 virtual desktops on the first virtual desktop, makes the
    system totally unusable.
    Apart from the session management currently not working at all, that
    was not what I meant.
    Than I missunderstood.

    The window manager *is* able to position
    windows anywhere on the
    screen, but the application itself can not
    say "I want to open myseflf at position X,Y" as it could on X11 (if
    my information is correct).  Virtual desktops are totally unaffected
    by this anyways and have nothing to do with window position.
    I’m wondering how the windowmanager knowns how to restore a lot of
    firefox-windows on the correct desktops…

        MfG
        bmg

    Pleased to see the Shutdown options panel appear when I went to reboot
    my workstation after this morning's full-upgrade. I'm still not seeing applications being restored unless they are on the first virtual
    desktop however - with the exception of gkrellm which restored
    properly on desktop 2 and filezilla which restored, but to desktop 1

    I decided to give Wayland another go but note that Spectacle's
    recording feature still does not appear to be working. And simple
    screen recorder still doesn't work with Wayland. This leaves me
    without a screen recorder.

    Please note: theses are not complaints against the people trying to
    make things work. This is simply a status report on the current state
    of affairs on my workstation.

    Kudos to the Plasma team for getting the upgrade to 6 working. I note
    that applications are now being restored properly (at least using X -
    haven't tried Wayland recently since it seems to less capable than X for
    what I do).  Not sure I like the limited options on the confirmation
    screen for logouts/shutdowns.  Also, I note that gkrellm and FileZilla
    are being restored to desktop 1 instead of the ones they were open on.
    And FileZilla is being restored twice, so I have to close one instance.

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  • From =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_COUDERC?=@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 14 19:50:02 2024
    Le 14 décembre 2024 15:59:16 GMT+01:00, Gary Dale <[email protected]> a écrit :


    […]

    Also, I note that gkrellm and FileZilla are being restored to desktop 1 instead of the ones they were open on. And FileZilla is being restored twice, so I have to close one instance.

    This is <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336990>. It has a low priority now that the main target is Wayland.


    Happy hacking,
    --
    Aurélien

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  • From Gary Dale@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 21 16:30:02 2024
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 2024-12-14 13:30, Aurélien COUDERC wrote:

    Le 14 décembre 2024 15:59:16 GMT+01:00, Gary Dale<[email protected]> a écrit :
    […]

    Also, I note that gkrellm and FileZilla are being restored to desktop 1 instead of the ones they were open on. And FileZilla is being restored twice, so I have to close one instance.
    This is<https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336990>. It has a low priority now that the main target is Wayland.


    Happy hacking,
    --
    Aurélien

    Just restarted after this morning's updates. I decided to give Wayland a
    try again after noting that xwayland was one of the upgraded packages.

    Good news:

    1. all my programs came up
    2. pleased to see that the screen scaling goes in 5% increments - much
    better than the 25% increments the last time I tried it. And 140%
    seems easier to read than the 143% I used on X11.

    Bad news:

    1. all my programs came up on virtual desktop 1 and were  in the centre
    of the screen (except for gkrellm - correct position but wrong
    desktop - and Firefox & Thunderbird which were off-centre toward the
    position they were at when I rebooted). Not sure if this is because
    my last session was X11 and/or the different screen scaling (came up
    at 175% for some reason).
    2. the KDE wallet password dialogue wasn't at the front like it is in X11.
    3. still had 2 copies of Filezilla opening - both on desktop 1
    4. Spectacle screen recording still doesn't work.

    I'm not sure if I'll stay with Wayland or not. There's some muscle
    memory to adjust in the file open/save dialogues thanks to the
    re-positioned buttons, which I suppose I'll have to get used to. But the absence of a working screen recorder is a big negative for me.

    Still, quite happy with the progress being made.

    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-12-14 13:30, Aurélien COUDERC
    wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
    cite="mid:[email protected]">
    <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">

    Le 14 décembre 2024 15:59:16 GMT+01:00, Gary Dale <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]">&lt;[email protected]&gt;</a> a écrit :
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
    </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
    […]

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">Also, I note that gkrellm and FileZilla are being restored to desktop 1 instead of the ones they were open on. And FileZilla is being restored twice, so I have to close one instance.
    </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">
    This is <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336990">&lt;https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336990&gt;</a>. It has a low priority now that the main target is Wayland.


    Happy hacking,
    --
    Aurélien
    </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Just restarted after this morning's updates. I decided to give
    Wayland a try again after noting that xwayland was one of the
    upgraded packages. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Good news:</p>
    <ol>
    <li>all my programs came up</li>
    <li>pleased to see that the screen scaling goes in 5% increments -
    much better than the 25% increments the last time I tried it. 
    And 140% seems easier to read than the 143% I used on X11.</li>
    </ol>
    <p>Bad news:</p>
    <ol>
    <li>all my programs came up on virtual desktop 1 and were  in the
    centre of the screen (except for gkrellm - correct position but
    wrong desktop - and Firefox &amp; Thunderbird which were
    off-centre toward the position they were at when I rebooted).
    Not sure if this is because my last session was X11 and/or the
    different screen scaling (came up at 175% for some reason).<br>
    </li>
    <li>the KDE wallet password dialogue wasn't at the front like it
    is in X11. <br>
    </li>
    <li>still had 2 copies of Filezilla opening - both on desktop 1</li>
    <li>Spectacle screen recording still doesn't work.</li>
    </ol>
    <p>I'm not sure if I'll stay with Wayland or not. There's some
    muscle memory to adjust in the file open/save dialogues thanks to
    the re-positioned buttons, which I suppose I'll have to get used
    to. But the absence of a working screen recorder is a big negative
    for me.</p>
    <p>Still, quite happy with the progress being made. <br>
    </p>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From Johannes Zarl-Zierl@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 21 22:30:01 2024
    Am Samstag, 21. Dezember 2024, 16:16:43 CET schrieb Gary Dale:
    1. all my programs came up on virtual desktop 1 and were in the centre
    of the screen (except for gkrellm - correct position but wrong
    desktop

    That's annoying me as well.

    4. Spectacle screen recording still doesn't work.

    Because it's easy to test I tried reproducing this: Spectacle does record my screen correctly. I tried with a whole screen, as well as with a rectangular region across two screens.
    Maybe the package has some undeclared runtime dependency that's installed on
    my system by chance?

    To add the few glitches that I experience:

    KMail forgets its column width preferences each time, so I have to resize the subject/sender/date columns each time.

    Cheers,
    Johannes

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