• =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Documentation_=28man=2c_info=2c_etc.=29_=28was_Re:_Th?= =

    From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Sat Aug 23 00:06:30 2025
    On 22.08.2025 23:46, Keith Thompson wrote:
    [...]

    For most GNU tools, the info document is definitive and the man page is secondary (and sometimes is only a brief summary). bash is the only exception that I know of.

    Really? - On my Linux system I get for most system commands thorough
    man page information. (And I feel lucky about that situation.)

    Janis

    [...]

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Janis Papanagnou on Sat Aug 23 00:13:23 2025
    On 23.08.2025 00:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 22.08.2025 23:46, Keith Thompson wrote:
    [...]

    For most GNU tools, the info document is definitive and the man page is
    secondary (and sometimes is only a brief summary). bash is the only
    exception that I know of.

    Really? - On my Linux system I get for most system commands thorough
    man page information. (And I feel lucky about that situation.)

    I have to correct that; on the bottom of some man pages I see a note
    "The full documentation for <tool> is maintained as a Texinfo manual."

    Janis

    [...]


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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Sat Aug 23 01:05:24 2025
    On 23.08.2025 00:40, Keith Thompson wrote:

    Yes. I think that for some GNU tools, the info and man documents
    contain the same information. For others, the man page is just a brief summary, sometimes generated from "--help" output with "help2man".

    I've meanwhile looked also into the size of the man pages...

    Number of man pages with number of lines
    512 with 1..40 lines
    1641 with 41..200 lines
    781 with 201..1000 lines
    159 with 1001..5000 lines
    28 with 5001..20000 lines

    That doesn't appear to be just irrelevant information, at least.

    Janis

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Janis Papanagnou on Sat Aug 23 00:29:33 2025
    On 23.08.2025 00:13, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 23.08.2025 00:06, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 22.08.2025 23:46, Keith Thompson wrote:
    [...]

    For most GNU tools, the info document is definitive and the man page is
    secondary (and sometimes is only a brief summary). bash is the only
    exception that I know of.

    Really? - On my Linux system I get for most system commands thorough
    man page information. (And I feel lucky about that situation.)

    I have to correct that; on the bottom of some man pages I see a note
    "The full documentation for <tool> is maintained as a Texinfo manual."

    Curiously I grep'ed for that phrase in the man pages and got these
    results...

    $ ksh man-stat /bin
    164 13
    $ ksh man-stat /usr/bin
    3230 60

    On left: all the bin-files, right: files with texinfo note in their
    man page; i.e. 8% and 2% respectively of files containing texinfo
    reference in the man pages of all the commands in /bin and /usr/bin.

    (Of course I cannot tell whether there's also uncommented files.)

    Janis

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Jim on Sat Aug 23 20:05:07 2025
    On 23.08.2025 19:08, Jim wrote:
    On 2025-08-22 at 20:05 ADT, Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 23.08.2025 00:40, Keith Thompson wrote:

    Yes. I think that for some GNU tools, the info and man documents
    contain the same information. For others, the man page is just a brief
    summary, sometimes generated from "--help" output with "help2man".

    I've meanwhile looked also into the size of the man pages...

    Number of man pages with number of lines
    512 with 1..40 lines
    1641 with 41..200 lines
    781 with 201..1000 lines
    159 with 1001..5000 lines
    28 with 5001..20000 lines

    That doesn't appear to be just irrelevant information, at least.

    Is that 20000 tight?

    (What do you mean by "tight"?)

    That is, are there man pages that big, or did your
    histogramization (?) arbitrarily pick 20000?

    I picked the ranges arbitrarily, starting with 40 and increasing
    by factors of ~5; this looked like a reasonable choice of ranges
    (I knew that the largest file was not exceeding 18000 lines).

    The upper ranges of the data were (listed are amount of files
    with their respective number of lines):

    ...
    1 5143
    1 5450
    1 5637
    1 5701
    1 6159
    2 8071
    1 9155
    1 9961
    2 12239
    2 13892
    1 15356
    4 15507
    10 17484

    The coincidence that there's for example 10 files with exactly
    17484 lines is due to they effectively represent the same tool
    and have probably the same structure or similar content.[*]

    Janis

    [*] For example
    /usr/share/man/man1/c++.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/cc.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/g++.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/g++-4.6.1.gz
    ...
    /usr/share/man/man1/x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc.1.gz

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Janis Papanagnou on Sat Aug 23 20:29:00 2025
    On 23.08.2025 20:05, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 23.08.2025 19:08, Jim wrote:
    On 2025-08-22 at 20:05 ADT, Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 23.08.2025 00:40, Keith Thompson wrote:

    Yes. I think that for some GNU tools, the info and man documents
    contain the same information. For others, the man page is just a brief >>>> summary, sometimes generated from "--help" output with "help2man".

    I've meanwhile looked also into the size of the man pages...

    Number of man pages with number of lines
    512 with 1..40 lines
    1641 with 41..200 lines
    781 with 201..1000 lines
    159 with 1001..5000 lines
    28 with 5001..20000 lines

    That doesn't appear to be just irrelevant information, at least.

    Is that 20000 tight?

    (What do you mean by "tight"?)

    That is, are there man pages that big, or did your
    histogramization (?) arbitrarily pick 20000?

    I picked the ranges arbitrarily, starting with 40 and increasing
    by factors of ~5; this looked like a reasonable choice of ranges
    (I knew that the largest file was not exceeding 18000 lines).

    The upper ranges of the data were (listed are amount of files
    with their respective number of lines):

    ...
    1 5143
    1 5450
    1 5637
    1 5701
    1 6159
    2 8071
    1 9155
    1 9961
    2 12239
    2 13892
    1 15356
    4 15507
    10 17484

    The coincidence that there's for example 10 files with exactly
    17484 lines is due to they effectively represent the same tool
    and have probably the same structure or similar content.[*]

    ...or are just links as can be (sadly non-trivially) seen...

    $ ls -l /usr/share/man/man1/c++.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/cc.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/c++.1.gz -> /etc/alternatives/c++.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/cc.1.gz -> /etc/alternatives/cc.1.gz
    $ ls -l /etc/alternatives/c++.1.gz /etc/alternatives/cc.1.gz /etc/alternatives/c++.1.gz -> /usr/share/man/man1/g++.1.gz /etc/alternatives/cc.1.gz -> /usr/share/man/man1/gcc.1.gz
    $ ls -l /usr/share/man/man1/g++.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/gcc.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/g++.1.gz -> g++-4.6.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/gcc.1.gz -> gcc-4.6.1.gz
    $ ls -l /usr/share/man/man1/g++-4.6.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/gcc-4.6.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/g++-4.6.1.gz -> gcc-4.6.1.gz /usr/share/man/man1/gcc-4.6.1.gz

    Those two files finally land (after a multiple soft-link orgy)
    at the same file.


    Janis

    [*] For example
    /usr/share/man/man1/c++.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/cc.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/g++.1.gz
    /usr/share/man/man1/g++-4.6.1.gz
    ...
    /usr/share/man/man1/x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc.1.gz


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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Richard on Tue Aug 26 01:58:33 2025
    On 25.08.2025 23:06, Richard wrote:

    Perl showed the way by breaking up the documentation into multiple man
    pages describing different aspects of the language, e.g. syntax,
    modules, etc. and the main man page guiding into which man page you
    should read for further information.

    This is definitely not what I would be seeking. As other posters
    said, in a simple way searching in one document with a standard
    structure (like man) would be it. And that document should have
    all the essentials.

    Separating the topics you mention in separate "chapters" is fine.
    But having "separate pages" (whether only referred to or linked
    together by some link mechanism) appears not very appealing.

    Incidentally, the _separation_ I mentioned elsethread is what you
    are describing here and what sounds completely reasonable to me:

    The original Unix distributions from Bell Labs took a different
    approach. The man page was to serve as a concise reference for the command-line arguments, related files and so-on. If the software was
    more complex, like yacc, then a user guide was expected to accompany
    the program and would live in /usr/doc, not /usr/man. The user guide
    was expected to be written with the ms macro package not the man macro package. However, I don't think this actually took hold culturally
    anywhere except Bell Labs and the original creators of Unix.

    Strangely, in the past decades, I completely missed the /usr/doc
    part of the Unix documentation. (I wonder why...)

    Janis

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Tue Aug 26 08:46:23 2025
    On 26.08.2025 05:48, Keith Thompson wrote:
    Janis Papanagnou <[email protected]> writes:
    [...]
    Strangely, in the past decades, I completely missed the /usr/doc
    part of the Unix documentation. (I wonder why...)

    On some systems (Ubuntu in my case), it's /usr/share/doc .

    Yeah, thanks. - Now I know where they are. :-)

    What's still unclear to me is how to read them.

    I mean, man xterm will show me the xterm manual.
    And below /usr/share/doc/xterm/, for example, I
    see xterm.termcap.gz and xterm.terminfo.gz, but
    there's (unlike man) no doc(1) command nor does
    e.g. man xterm.terminfo work, and man terminfo
    will access the man entries (not these docs it
    seems).

    As I said, I never knew about nor worked with
    these /usr/share/doc information; I'm curious.

    Janis

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  • From Janis Papanagnou@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Wed Aug 27 08:24:38 2025
    On 26.08.2025 22:26, Keith Thompson wrote:
    [...]

    You probably won't miss much by ignoring /usr/share/doc .

    Obviously! :-)

    Janis

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