• Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Tarski undefinability the

    From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 18:33:47 2025
    On 2025-08-14 18:14, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:28 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 17:09, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:01 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 12:58, olcott wrote:

    As I must keep repeating I am not trying to make an
    omniscient halt decider that refutes the halting problem
    because I don't have the thousand years that this would
    take if it was possible.

    You keep writing words to this affect, and I always find it rather
    confusing.

    There's only two logical possibilities: Either a universal halt
    decider is possible or it is not possible. If it is NOT possible,
    then it makes very little sense for you to go to great lengths to
    "disprove" the "conventional" halting-problem proofs.

    I keep getting clearer and clearer ways of saying this
    as I keep getting more and more dialogue.

    I have proved that the conventional proofs do not prove
    the non-existence of a universal halt decider.

    Change the subject away from this and you are off-topic.

    You're missing the point. I'm asking you *why* you are determined to
    "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not prove the non-existence
    of a universal halt decider."
    Because the faulty reasoning used in the halting problem
    proofs is the exact same faulty reasoning used in the
    Tarski undefinability theorem and this prevents humanity
    from having an objective measure of truth.

    That doesn't really answer my question, though that's partially my fault
    for using improper punctuation in my original post. Let me repeat the
    question with the correct punctuation:

    Why you are determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not
    prove the non-existence of a universal halt decider," while at the same
    time refusing to commit to the possibility of such a decider?

    André

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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 18:54:21 2025
    On 2025-08-14 18:40, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 7:33 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 18:14, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:28 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 17:09, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:01 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 12:58, olcott wrote:

    As I must keep repeating I am not trying to make an
    omniscient halt decider that refutes the halting problem
    because I don't have the thousand years that this would
    take if it was possible.

    You keep writing words to this affect, and I always find it rather >>>>>> confusing.

    There's only two logical possibilities: Either a universal halt
    decider is possible or it is not possible. If it is NOT possible,
    then it makes very little sense for you to go to great lengths to
    "disprove" the "conventional" halting-problem proofs.

    I keep getting clearer and clearer ways of saying this
    as I keep getting more and more dialogue.

    I have proved that the conventional proofs do not prove
    the non-existence of a universal halt decider.

    Change the subject away from this and you are off-topic.

    You're missing the point. I'm asking you *why* you are determined to
    "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not prove the non-existence
    of a universal halt decider."
    Because the faulty reasoning used in the halting problem
    proofs is the exact same faulty reasoning used in the
    Tarski undefinability theorem and this prevents humanity
    from having an objective measure of truth.

    That doesn't really answer my question, though that's partially my
    fault for using improper punctuation in my original post. Let me
    repeat the question with the correct punctuation:

    Why you are determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not
    prove the non-existence of a universal halt decider,"

    Why did you snip my question such that the meaning is entirely changed?

    André

    (1) I really did already prove this and everyone
    is trying to get away with gaslighting me on this.

    If you ask again I will repeat that same answer 500 times.
    Every time you ask I will repeat that same answer 500 times.



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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 19:04:06 2025
    On 2025-08-14 19:01, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 7:33 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 18:14, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:28 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 17:09, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:01 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 12:58, olcott wrote:

    As I must keep repeating I am not trying to make an
    omniscient halt decider that refutes the halting problem
    because I don't have the thousand years that this would
    take if it was possible.

    You keep writing words to this affect, and I always find it rather >>>>>> confusing.

    There's only two logical possibilities: Either a universal halt
    decider is possible or it is not possible. If it is NOT possible,
    then it makes very little sense for you to go to great lengths to
    "disprove" the "conventional" halting-problem proofs.

    I keep getting clearer and clearer ways of saying this
    as I keep getting more and more dialogue.

    I have proved that the conventional proofs do not prove
    the non-existence of a universal halt decider.

    Change the subject away from this and you are off-topic.

    You're missing the point. I'm asking you *why* you are determined to
    "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not prove the non-existence
    of a universal halt decider."
    Because the faulty reasoning used in the halting problem
    proofs is the exact same faulty reasoning used in the
    Tarski undefinability theorem and this prevents humanity
    from having an objective measure of truth.

    That doesn't really answer my question, though that's partially my
    fault for using improper punctuation in my original post. Let me
    repeat the question with the correct punctuation:

    Why you are determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not
    prove the non-existence of a universal halt decider," while at the
    same time refusing to commit to the possibility of such a decider?

    André


    The last part of your question is a false presupposition.
    Should I answer questions that have falsehoods built it?
    That would be my acquiesce to deception.

    So in other words you are asserting the existence of a universal halt
    decider?

    André

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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 19:37:05 2025
    On 2025-08-14 19:10, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 8:04 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 19:01, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 7:33 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 18:14, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:28 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 17:09, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:01 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 12:58, olcott wrote:

    As I must keep repeating I am not trying to make an
    omniscient halt decider that refutes the halting problem
    because I don't have the thousand years that this would
    take if it was possible.

    You keep writing words to this affect, and I always find it
    rather confusing.

    There's only two logical possibilities: Either a universal halt >>>>>>>> decider is possible or it is not possible. If it is NOT
    possible, then it makes very little sense for you to go to great >>>>>>>> lengths to "disprove" the "conventional" halting-problem proofs. >>>>>>>
    I keep getting clearer and clearer ways of saying this
    as I keep getting more and more dialogue.

    I have proved that the conventional proofs do not prove
    the non-existence of a universal halt decider.

    Change the subject away from this and you are off-topic.

    You're missing the point. I'm asking you *why* you are determined
    to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not prove the non-
    existence of a universal halt decider."
    Because the faulty reasoning used in the halting problem
    proofs is the exact same faulty reasoning used in the
    Tarski undefinability theorem and this prevents humanity
    from having an objective measure of truth.

    That doesn't really answer my question, though that's partially my
    fault for using improper punctuation in my original post. Let me
    repeat the question with the correct punctuation:

    Why you are determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do
    not prove the non-existence of a universal halt decider," while at
    the same time refusing to commit to the possibility of such a decider? >>>>
    André


    The last part of your question is a false presupposition.
    Should I answer questions that have falsehoods built it?
    That would be my acquiesce to deception.

    So in other words you are asserting the existence of a universal halt
    decider?

    André


    I don't give a rat's ass about that.
    I do care about how people verify
    what is true and what is not true.

    So is it then your position that the proofs you have looked at are all
    flawed but that there *might* still exist a proof that solving the
    halting problem is impossible, just not one that you have seen?

    Or do you think that it is *in principle* impossible to prove that
    halting is uncomputable?

    André

    --
    To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 20:28:42 2025
    On 2025-08-14 20:16, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 8:37 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 19:10, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 8:04 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 19:01, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 7:33 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 18:14, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:28 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 17:09, olcott wrote:
    On 8/14/2025 6:01 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2025-08-14 12:58, olcott wrote:

    As I must keep repeating I am not trying to make an
    omniscient halt decider that refutes the halting problem >>>>>>>>>>> because I don't have the thousand years that this would
    take if it was possible.

    You keep writing words to this affect, and I always find it >>>>>>>>>> rather confusing.

    There's only two logical possibilities: Either a universal >>>>>>>>>> halt decider is possible or it is not possible. If it is NOT >>>>>>>>>> possible, then it makes very little sense for you to go to >>>>>>>>>> great lengths to "disprove" the "conventional" halting-problem >>>>>>>>>> proofs.

    I keep getting clearer and clearer ways of saying this
    as I keep getting more and more dialogue.

    I have proved that the conventional proofs do not prove
    the non-existence of a universal halt decider.

    Change the subject away from this and you are off-topic.

    You're missing the point. I'm asking you *why* you are
    determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do not prove >>>>>>>> the non- existence of a universal halt decider."
    Because the faulty reasoning used in the halting problem
    proofs is the exact same faulty reasoning used in the
    Tarski undefinability theorem and this prevents humanity
    from having an objective measure of truth.

    That doesn't really answer my question, though that's partially my >>>>>> fault for using improper punctuation in my original post. Let me
    repeat the question with the correct punctuation:

    Why you are determined to "prov[e] that the conventional proofs do >>>>>> not prove the non-existence of a universal halt decider," while at >>>>>> the same time refusing to commit to the possibility of such a
    decider?

    André


    The last part of your question is a false presupposition.
    Should I answer questions that have falsehoods built it?
    That would be my acquiesce to deception.

    So in other words you are asserting the existence of a universal
    halt decider?

    André


    I don't give a rat's ass about that.
    I do care about how people verify
    what is true and what is not true.

    So is it then your position that the proofs you have looked at are all
    flawed but that there *might* still exist a proof that solving the
    halting problem is impossible, just not one that you have seen?


    All of the conventional proofs are flawed, including
    the one that Ben Bacarisse referred to.

    Once my refutation of those proofs is accepted I
    will have credibility that my ideas on Tarski will
    be given enormously much more weight.

    Or do you think that it is *in principle* impossible to prove that
    halting is uncomputable?

    André


    It may be easy, I don't care.

    What might be easy?

    I asked a fairly straightforward question which you seem determined to
    dodge. I know you think the existing proofs are flawed. I'm asking you
    whether you think there *might* be such a proof that remains
    undiscovered or whether you think it is in principle impossible to prove
    the noncomputability of halting. Nothing you write below addresses this.

    André

    I only care about the objectively correct way to
    attain truth because righteousness cannot exist
    apart from truth.

    Only the Halting Problem gives me the microcosm
    to examine these things in a 100% concrete way
    with minimal inessential complexity.

    Brooks distinguishes between two different types of
    complexity: accidental complexity and essential complexity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet



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  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Aug 14 20:43:28 2025
    On 2025-08-14 20:32, olcott wrote:

    It must be that English is not your native language.
    It might be easy to prove the halting problem.

    You don't prove problems. You prove solutions to problems. Are you
    saying it might be easy to prove that computing halting is impossible or
    that it might be easy to prove that it is possible.

    I keep telling you that I don't care about this.
    Please quit bringing it up.

    Whether you care about it or not, it is a very simple question and the
    answer interests me. It would take you three words to answer it ("the
    first one" or "the second one").

    So I'll ask again, do you believe that it is *possible* that an (as of
    yet unknown) proof that halting is incomputable exists, or

    do you believe that such a proof is *impossible in principle*.

    Since those two options exhaust the possibilities and the first is
    noncomittal it's impossible for you *not* to have a position on this.
    What harm is there in sharing?

    André

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