• Re: All computation & human reasoning encoded as finite string transfor

    From Alan Mackenzie@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Apr 26 17:31:51 2025
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-25 21:14:30 +0000, olcott said:

    [ .... ]

    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Be specific:

    - Which sentence of that opus contains the mistake you ment
     when you said "I uniquely made his mistake more clear" ?
    - Which sentence of that opus expresses a disagreement that there are
     any expressions that are proven completely true entirely on the basis >>>>  of their meaning ?


    That he disagrees that the analytic synthetic distinction
    distinction exists. His key mistake is failing to understand
    the details of how bachelor(x) gets its semantic meanings.

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest. Since you
    can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems
    more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951) https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x)
    gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    Or, far more likely, you are clueless about what he actually wrote, and
    what it means.

    You haven't provided any evidence for you actually having read the
    original. You're likely just quoting somebody else's opinion of that
    original.

    If anyone in the universe says that the analytic/synthetic
    does not exist we can ignore everything that they say and
    provide the details of how analytic truth works:

    *Semantic logical entailment from a finite list of basic facts*

    In other words, if anybody disagrees with you, you bad mouth them.

    This leads him to failing to understand how words generally get
    their meaning. This leads him to fail to understand which
    expressions are true entirely based on their meaning. This leads
    him to reject the analytic side of the analytic/synthetic distinction.

    Again, this is likely false, for the same reasons.

    Search for the 98 instances of the keyword [synonym]
    and you will see what I mean. He has no idea how
    synonymity works.

    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language
    is an axiomatic system beginning with a finite list of basic facts.

    You've never proven that, and it is almost certainly false.

    A valid counter-example is categorically impossible.

    OK, take the true statement "Nuremberg is a good place to live.", a
    statement expressed in language. Please state the axioms from which this
    can be derived, and show that derivation.

    I doubt very much you can do this.

    From this list the rest of general knowledge that can be expressed
    in language is derived through semantic logical entailment.

    Apart from the bits which can't be.

    Such bits are categorically impossible for the entire
    body of knowledge that can be expressed in language.

    Wrong. I just gave an example above. I think it likely that most bits
    of knowledge expressible as language will not be derivable from your
    axioms, of which you have yet to give a single example.

    The burden of proof is on you.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --
    Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

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  • From Alan Mackenzie@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Apr 26 20:38:55 2025
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

    [ .... ]

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest. Since you
    can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems
    more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x)
    gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    Or, far more likely, you are clueless about what he actually wrote, and
    what it means.

    You can just keyword search the term 98 instances of the
    term [synonym] and see all of his mistakes.

    I could, but I'm not going to. I put it to you, again, you have not read
    and understood that paper of Quine's. It says things you don't like,
    that you can't counter logically, so you just end up cursing.

    You haven't provided any evidence for you actually having read the
    original. You're likely just quoting somebody else's opinion of that
    original.

    If anyone in the universe says that the analytic/synthetic
    does not exist we can ignore everything that they say and
    provide the details of how analytic truth works:

    *Semantic logical entailment from a finite list of basic facts*

    In other words, if anybody disagrees with you, you bad mouth them.

    Not on this. This material is difficult.

    I don't doubt it. So why don't you conclude that you might not have
    understood it fully?

    [ .... ]

    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language >>>>> is an axiomatic system beginning with a finite list of basic facts.

    You've never proven that, and it is almost certainly false.

    A valid counter-example is categorically impossible.

    OK, take the true statement "Nuremberg is a good place to live.", a
    statement expressed in language. Please state the axioms from which this
    can be derived, and show that derivation.

    I don't think that value judgments can be derived
    from basic facts thus do not count as knowledge that
    can be expressed using language.

    OK, so you remove from "the entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language" everything that _can't_ be derived from your
    axioms. That's circular and tautological.

    Even if you did this, what you would end up with would be an impoverished lifeless mechanical subset of knowledge. You would have no music or
    arts, no reason to get out of bed, even, no experience, and no human relationships. Amongst other things.

    All these things can be expressed in language. They cannot be derived
    from some set of axioms.

    Keep trying to come up with counter-examples so that
    I can generalize to prove that counter-examples are
    categorically impossible.

    If you keep changing the rules every time I give you such a counter
    example, then clearly I can't.

    As I said, it's up to you to prove your assertion that the entire body of
    human knowledge can be derived from "basic facts". You haven't yet given
    even a single example of such a basic fact, never mind some derivation of useful human knowledge from it.

    I doubt very much you can do this.

    From this list the rest of general knowledge that can be expressed >>>>> in language is derived through semantic logical entailment.

    Apart from the bits which can't be.

    Such bits are categorically impossible for the entire
    body of knowledge that can be expressed in language.

    Wrong. I just gave an example above. I think it likely that most bits
    of knowledge expressible as language will not be derivable from your
    axioms, of which you have yet to give a single example.

    Try again. Value judgements do not count as knowledge
    because they are not semantically entailed from basic facts.

    You're simply wrong, there. Knowledge is very much build up from value judgments. There are no such "basic facts", apart from in specialised
    fields such as mathematics. The universe is simply too rich, too
    colourful, too multifacetted to be reducible to some sterile system of
    "basic facts".

    The burden of proof is on you.

    As yet, you have not met that burden.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --
    Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Apr 26 16:49:20 2025
    On 4/26/25 12:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in language? >>>>>>>>>>>>
    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in a >>>>>>>>>>>> finite string so you can do reasoning with it?


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/

    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language
    <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>> that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor
    as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of
    Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x) >>>>>>>>>>
    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he does >>>>>>>>>> not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions
    of language that are true entirely on their semantic
    meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong.

    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately
    demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about another >>>>>> topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely
    on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are>
    the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction.

    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are
    proven completely true entirely on the basis of their
    meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title
    "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you
    claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with
    some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    Really, so which of the possible meanings must be incorrect?

    His point is that the meaning of words is often imprecise or perhaps not determinable by the limited context.




    This totally screws up his ability to understand the notion
    of expressions of language that are true entirely on the
    basis of their meaning (The definition of analytic knowledge).


    No, your failure to understand the subtlety that he is pointing out
    shows your in=gnorance of what you are talking aout.

    Part of his point is that in Natural Langauge, many words don't HAVE a
    precise unambigous definition to allow the actual creation of analytic knowledge purely on the "meaning" of the word.

    Remember, he is talking about with full natural language, NOT an
    artificial formalism of it.

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 12:06:16 2025
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in language? >>>>>>>>>>>>
    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in a finite string
    so you can do reasoning with it?


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/

    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language
    <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>> that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor
    as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of
    Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x) >>>>>>>>>>
    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he does not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions
    of language that are true entirely on their semantic
    meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong.

    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately
    demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about another >>>>>> topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely
    on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are>
    the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction.

    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are
    proven completely true entirely on the basis of their
    meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title
    "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you
    claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with
    some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 12:15:48 2025
    On 2025-04-26 19:29:02 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/26/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:

    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language >>>>> is an axiomatic system beginning with a finite list of basic facts.

    You've never proven that, and it is almost certainly false.

    A valid counter-example is categorically impossible.

    OK, take the true statement "Nuremberg is a good place to live.", a
    statement expressed in language. Please state the axioms from which this
    can be derived, and show that derivation.

    I don't think that value judgments can be derived
    from basic facts thus do not count as knowledge that
    can be expressed using language.

    Although that is a value judgement it is knowledge, and can be important knowledge to someone who agrees about the relevant values.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 07:25:08 2025
    On 4/26/25 12:49 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-25 21:14:30 +0000, olcott said:

    [ .... ]

    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Be specific:

    - Which sentence of that opus contains the mistake you ment
       when you said "I uniquely made his mistake more clear" ?
    - Which sentence of that opus expresses a disagreement that there are
       any expressions that are proven completely true entirely on the
    basis
       of their meaning ?


    That he disagrees that the analytic synthetic distinction
    distinction exists. His key mistake is failing to understand
    the details of how bachelor(x) gets its semantic meanings.

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest.  Since you
    can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems
    more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951) https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x)
    gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    But he doesn't use double talk and weasel words.

    As to Bachelor, did you not see his explaination for the problem, it is
    that it doesn't just mean that one meaning.

    Your problem is you are too ignorant of the topic, and thus can't
    understand the higher discussion of it.


    If anyone in the universe says that the analytic/synthetic
    does not exist we can ignore everything that they say and
    provide the details of how analytic truth works:

    *Semantic logical entailment from a finite list of basic facts*

    And anyone who just spouts words, but can not actually defend them, it
    just a liar.

    The problem is that Quine has shown that in the domain of Natural
    Lanugage, and not formalized version pretending to be the actual Natural Language, the phrase "by the meaning of the word" doesn't actually have
    a precise meaning, because words don't have precise meaning.

    He basically showed the equivalent for the "Russel Paradox" for logic
    trying to claim to be based on purely Natural Language.


    This leads him to failing to understand how words generally get
    their meaning. This leads him to fail to understand which
    expressions are true entirely based on their meaning. This leads
    him to reject the analytic side of the analytic/synthetic distinction.

    Again, this is likely false, for the same reasons.


    Search for the 98 instances of the keyword [synonym]
    and you will see what I mean. He has no idea how
    synonymity works.

    Maybe you should, and FULLY and COMPLETE document what you see at the
    error, and be willing to defend your argument when holes are poked in it.

    Your deflection to having others do what you need to do just shows that
    you know you are incapable of actually proving your position.

    After all, you just admitted you didn't read it well enough to fully
    understand it, because you just ignored the parts that disagreed with
    your ideas.

    You know what that is called? A Blantant Disregard for the Truth.


    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language
    is an axiomatic system beginning with a finite list of basic facts.

    You've never proven that, and it is almost certainly false.


    A valid counter-example is categorically impossible.

    Nope. And you just show that you have no understanding of how logic works.


     From this list the rest of general knowledge that can be expressed
    in language is derived through semantic logical entailment.

    Apart from the bits which can't be.


    Such bits are categorically impossible for the entire
    body of knowledge that can be expressed in language.

    Nope, the problem you initial assumption that we can precises state all
    the basic truths in a truely Natural Language.


    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer




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  • From Alan Mackenzie@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 14:57:15 2025
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 3:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

    [ .... ]

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest. Since you >>>>>> can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems >>>>>> more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x)
    gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    Or, far more likely, you are clueless about what he actually wrote, and >>>> what it means.

    You can just keyword search the term 98 instances of the
    term [synonym] and see all of his mistakes.

    I could, but I'm not going to. I put it to you, again, you have not read
    and understood that paper of Quine's. It says things you don't like,
    that you can't counter logically, so you just end up cursing.

    You haven't provided any evidence for you actually having read the
    original. You're likely just quoting somebody else's opinion of that
    original.

    If anyone in the universe says that the analytic/synthetic
    does not exist we can ignore everything that they say and
    provide the details of how analytic truth works:

    *Semantic logical entailment from a finite list of basic facts*

    In other words, if anybody disagrees with you, you bad mouth them.

    Not on this. This material is difficult.

    I don't doubt it. So why don't you conclude that you might not have
    understood it fully?

    No answer?

    Everyone knows that Quine rejected the analytic/synthetic
    distinction.

    False. There are people who don't know it, and are likely happier and
    more fulfilled for lack of that knowledge.

    I haven't read Quine's paper either, so I can't definitively pronounce
    on it any more than you can. But there is a discussion of it on
    Wikipedia. There it describes how Quine demonstrated that there is no
    hard and fast line between analytic and synthetic knowledge. That's not
    the same as what you asserted.

    If you don't know this or don't believe this I DON'T CARE.

    It would appear that you care a great deal.

    Everyone knows that analytic truth is expressions of language
    that are true entirely on the basis of their meaning.

    If you don't know this or don't believe this I DON'T CARE.

    When we link a the set of basic facts ....

    And that typo epitomises one of the difficulties in your viewpoint.
    There is no single definitive set of basic facts. There are only lots
    of sets of basic facts, all of them incomplete.

    An essential feature of a set is membership; either an element is a
    member of a set or it's not. Since there's no workable criterion for membership of your purported set of all basic facts, that set does not
    exist.

    .... to the set of expressions derived from these basic facts by
    semantic logical entailment then we get the set of expressions that
    are proven true on entirely on the basis of their meaning, hence
    proving that the analytic side of the analytic/synthetic distinction
    exists.

    This "derivation" is a mysterious unspecified process. One can derive
    theorems from mathematical axioms and logic, one can derive scientific
    truth from observations. But outside of these fields, this idea of
    "derivation from basic facts" would appear to be questionable at best.

    For example, you proposed "cats are animals" as a basic fact. Can you
    show, by means of example, some derivation from some basic facts which
    include that one. I suspect all you'll be able to come up with are more
    basic facts, synonyms, and the like.

    The above is proven true entirely on the basis of the
    meaning of its words.

    That's false. No proof has been forthcoming.

    [ .... ]

    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed in language >>>>>>> is an axiomatic system beginning with a finite list of basic facts.

    You've never proven that, and it is almost certainly false.

    A valid counter-example is categorically impossible.

    OK, take the true statement "Nuremberg is a good place to live.", a
    statement expressed in language. Please state the axioms from which this >>>> can be derived, and show that derivation.

    I don't think that value judgments can be derived
    from basic facts thus do not count as knowledge that
    can be expressed using language.

    OK, so you remove from "the entire body of human knowledge that can be
    expressed in language" everything that _can't_ be derived from your
    axioms. That's circular and tautological.

    Not at all We remove uncertain opinions from knowledge.

    Amongst all the other knowledge that can't be derived in your way.

    There's going to be very little of value left. Certainly no art or
    music, no religion, little, if any, science. All you'll be left with is
    pure mathematics. Your formulation of knowledge is not a useful one.

    Even if you did this, what you would end up with would be an impoverished
    lifeless mechanical subset of knowledge. You would have no music or
    arts, no reason to get out of bed, even, no experience, and no human
    relationships. Amongst other things.

    Not all. Knowledge about opinions is knowledge.
    Knowledge only includes provable certainties.

    That's effectively saying that knowledge is pure mathematics and nothing
    else.

    All these things can be expressed in language. They cannot be derived
    from some set of axioms.

    Statements of opinions are anchored in the meaning
    of their words. The full meaning of every word is
    an aspect of basic facts. When I say the full meaning
    I mean that the word: "human" may have a quadrillion
    related axioms comprised of basic facts.

    A quadrillion "basic facts" is ludicrous. One cannot construct anything worthwhile from such a large set.

    Keep trying to come up with counter-examples so that
    I can generalize to prove that counter-examples are
    categorically impossible.

    If you keep changing the rules every time I give you such a counter
    example, then clearly I can't.

    I keep elaborating my words when you find aspects that
    are not clear.

    It is not aspects which are unclear, it is that your whole attempted construction is ridiculous. It is as ridiculous as the builders at
    Babel trying to construct a tower to reach Heaven.

    As I said, it's up to you to prove your assertion that the entire body of
    human knowledge can be derived from "basic facts". You haven't yet given
    even a single example of such a basic fact, never mind some derivation of
    useful human knowledge from it.

    I have done this many hundreds of times:
    {cats} <are> {animals}

    OK.

    objects of thought are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations
    between individuals, properties of such relations, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    A simplified overview of a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    You're talking about abstracting some properties of things and thus categorising them. This process of abstraction will lose the essence of
    those things just like pulling the wings off a butterfly to see how it
    flies loses the butterfly.

    I doubt very much you can do this.

    From this list the rest of general knowledge that can be expressed >>>>>>> in language is derived through semantic logical entailment.

    Apart from the bits which can't be.

    Such bits are categorically impossible for the entire
    body of knowledge that can be expressed in language.

    Wrong. I just gave an example above. I think it likely that most bits >>>> of knowledge expressible as language will not be derivable from your
    axioms, of which you have yet to give a single example.

    Try again. Value judgements do not count as knowledge
    because they are not semantically entailed from basic facts.

    You're simply wrong, there. Knowledge is very much build up from value
    judgments.

    Anything less that certainty is not knowledge.

    Don't be ridiculous! You're implying that scientific knowledge, being
    less than certain, is an oxymoron.

    There are no such "basic facts", apart from in specialised
    fields such as mathematics. The universe is simply too rich, too
    colourful, too multifacetted to be reducible to some sterile system of
    "basic facts".

    Basic Facts are the atoms of semantic meaning.
    Think of these as the complete meaning of every word.

    There are few, if any, words which have complete meanings. Their
    meanings are highly dependent on the context they're used in, and new
    contexts come into existence continually.

    The burden of proof is on you.

    As yet, you have not met that burden.

    I cannot further elaborate to clarify my view
    except by additional feedback.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --
    Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

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  • From Alan Mackenzie@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 19:49:16 2025
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:

    [ .... ]

    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking above your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with
    some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

    Quine argues that all attempts to define and
    understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
    the notion of analyticity should be rejected
    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    He is stupidly wrong a about this.

    He was a leading academic at a prestigeous university. It is vanishingly unlike that he was "stupidly wrong". It is far more likely that you have failed to understand his message; that it is you who is stupidly wrong.

    Analytic knowledge exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of
    knowledge.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    An acyclic directed graph? Highly implausible. Any real system of
    knowledge organised in a graph (if that is even possible) is going to
    have cycles in it. That's assuming "analytic knowledge" exists at all.

    [ .... ]

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --
    Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Mackenzie@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 20:54:07 2025
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/27/2025 9:57 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 3:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:

    [ .... ]

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest. Since you >>>>>>>> can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems >>>>>>>> more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x) >>>>>>> gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    Or, far more likely, you are clueless about what he actually wrote, and >>>>>> what it means.

    You can just keyword search the term 98 instances of the
    term [synonym] and see all of his mistakes.

    I could, but I'm not going to. I put it to you, again, you have not read >>>> and understood that paper of Quine's. It says things you don't like,
    that you can't counter logically, so you just end up cursing.

    You haven't provided any evidence for you actually having read the >>>>>> original. You're likely just quoting somebody else's opinion of that >>>>>> original.

    If anyone in the universe says that the analytic/synthetic
    does not exist we can ignore everything that they say and
    provide the details of how analytic truth works:

    *Semantic logical entailment from a finite list of basic facts*

    In other words, if anybody disagrees with you, you bad mouth them.

    Not on this. This material is difficult.

    I don't doubt it. So why don't you conclude that you might not have
    understood it fully?

    No answer?


    My statements are self-evidently correct as proven by the
    meaning of their words.

    Still no answer. Just you regard whatever you say is true (despite
    copious evidence to the contrary), therefore you must be right. Wrong!
    You've said that Quine's paper is difficult, and let's face it, your intellectual level is not that impressive. It's highly probable you've
    not understood the paper, whether you've actually read it or not.

    It <is> inherently true that a body of analytic knowledge
    can be comprised by applying semantic logical entailment to
    a set of basic facts expressed in language.

    That's your religion. You're not really a christian at all. You have
    faith in the existence of analytic knowledge which can not be justified,
    and you expect other people to believe it, just because you say it's
    true.

    As I said, it's your religion.

    [ .... ]

    I just found the 98 instances of the term [synonym] [in Quine's paper].
    That alone shows that he is quite confused.

    That he might discuss synonyms a lot is not in the slightest an
    indication of confusion.

    [ .... ]

    When we link a the set of basic facts ....

    And that typo epitomises one of the difficulties in your viewpoint.
    There is no single definitive set of basic facts. There are only lots
    of sets of basic facts, all of them incomplete.

    An essential feature of a set is membership; either an element is a
    member of a set or it's not. Since there's no workable criterion for
    membership of your purported set of all basic facts, that set does not
    exist.

    That no complete definition of basic facts has
    currently been fully elaborated sure as Hell does
    not even hint that such a definition cannot be provided.

    It is indeed a strong hint to that effect. Or at the very least, the assemblage of a quadrillion "basic facts" won't be of any use.

    It seems to me that the compositional meaning
    of "basic[common]" and "facts[common]" fully
    specifies the meaning that I intend.

    You're wrong.

    This definition already excluded your "value
    judgment opinion" on the basis that it is
    no kind of fact. Facts must be certainly true.

    What, my educating you on the quality of life in Nuremberg? That was a
    fact. If you have some different notion of "fact", then it seems you
    have a fact problem. Nothing you watch on television or read in the
    newspapers will be a fact to you. To you the only thing a fact is will
    be a content-free truism.

    [ .... ]

    One can derive theorems from mathematical axioms and logic, one can
    derive scientific truth from observations. But outside of these
    fields, this idea of "derivation from basic facts" would appear to be
    questionable at best.

    It is stipulated that {cats> <are> {animals}.
    It is ONLY this stipulation that provides semantic
    meaning to the otherwise meaningless finite strings
    of "cats" and "animals.

    You couldn't be more wrong. The meaning is acquired in early childhood,
    as the growing child gradually associates certain vocal sounds with the corresponding pieces of reality.

    With enough of these Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates
    we have all of the basic knowledge of the world that
    can be expressed in language.

    For some strange value of "have". What you've said is an extreme version
    of the idea that you can solve the game of chess on a computer by playing
    out every possible sequence of moves.

    [ .... ]

    OK, so you remove from "the entire body of human knowledge that can
    be expressed in language" everything that _can't_ be derived from
    your axioms. That's circular and tautological.

    Not at all We remove uncertain opinions from knowledge.

    Amongst all the other knowledge that can't be derived in your way.

    There's going to be very little of value left. Certainly no art or
    music, no religion, little, if any, science. All you'll be left with is
    pure mathematics. Your formulation of knowledge is not a useful one.

    Every fact that can be written down about these things
    is included. It is a fact that Pluto is no longer
    considered to be a planet.

    It's not. It is a fact that there are still people around who consider
    Pluto to be a planet.

    This is a good illustration of how your sterile itsy-bitsy screwing-up of language leads to error.

    [ .... ]

    The entire body of human knowledge that can be expressed
    in language includes anything that anyone could ever
    say about anything.

    That Nuremberg is a good place to live can be expressed in language and
    is part of the body of human knowledge.

    [ .... ]

    All these things can be expressed in language. They cannot be derived >>>> from some set of axioms.

    Statements of opinions are anchored in the meaning
    of their words. The full meaning of every word is
    an aspect of basic facts. When I say the full meaning
    I mean that the word: "human" may have a quadrillion
    related axioms comprised of basic facts.

    A quadrillion "basic facts" is ludicrous. One cannot construct anything
    worthwhile from such a large set.

    Presumption.
    Every detail about every detail of everything related
    to humans may easily take that many. One of the things
    that this requires is every detail about every government
    that ever existed. Likewise requires every detail of
    all of the advances in human medicine since medicine
    first began.

    Do you know anything about quantum mechanics? Its measurements and
    theory show that the precise state of things at the quantum level is unknowable. likewise, the precise details of "everything" related to
    humans is unknowable. Your fantasy can never be realised.

    [ .... ]

    It is not aspects which are unclear, it is that your whole attempted
    construction is ridiculous. It is as ridiculous as the builders at
    Babel trying to construct a tower to reach Heaven.

    "There is in my opinion no important theoretical difference between
    natural languages and the artificial languages of logicians; indeed I consider it possible to comprehend the syntax and semantics of both
    kinds of languages with a single natural and mathematically precise
    theory." (Montague 1970c, 373) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/montague-semantics/#Bac

    The ravings of an extreme fantasist. A mathematically precise language
    is wholly useless for going about one's daily life. Lack of precision is
    an essential feature of all natural languages.

    As I said, it's up to you to prove your assertion that the entire body of >>>> human knowledge can be derived from "basic facts". You haven't yet given >>>> even a single example of such a basic fact, never mind some derivation of >>>> useful human knowledge from it.

    I have done this many hundreds of times:
    {cats} <are> {animals}

    OK.

    objects of thought are divided into types, namely:
    individuals, properties of individuals, relations
    between individuals, properties of such relations, etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944

    A simplified overview of a
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    You're talking about abstracting some properties of things and thus
    categorising them. This process of abstraction will lose the essence of
    those things just like pulling the wings off a butterfly to see how it
    flies loses the butterfly.

    If it loses ALL of the essence then no one would
    have ever been interested in text novels. The ONLY
    thing that it loses are the first hand direct experience
    of physical sensations.

    It also enables True(X) to be computed for the entire
    body of knowledge that can be expressed on language.

    This you know to be false, from numerous threads on this newsgroup,
    though you haven't shown any signs of understanding why.

    [ .... ]

    Anything less that certainty is not knowledge.

    Don't be ridiculous! You're implying that scientific knowledge, being
    less than certain, is an oxymoron.

    If you fully understand the deep philosophy behind that
    you will know that I am correct.

    On the contrary, you are clearly wrong. Practically all knowledge which
    isn't pure mathematics is uncertain to a greater or lesser degree.

    To "know" things that turn turn to be false is an oxymoron.

    Then you know nothing.

    [ .... ]

    There are few, if any, words which have complete meanings.

    We keep adding Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates
    to a word until its complete meaning is fully specified.

    Have fun.

    Dictionaries don't have enough room for this. Each
    sense meaning of a word is defined separately.
    Duplicate sense meanings are combined.

    Their meanings are highly dependent on the context they're used in,
    and new contexts come into existence continually.

    Context is kept in a separate discourse context knowledge ontology.

    Meaningless word salad.

    [ .... ]

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --
    Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Apr 27 21:37:54 2025
    On 4/27/25 2:52 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/27/2025 6:25 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/26/25 12:49 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    In comp.theory olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/26/2025 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-25 21:14:30 +0000, olcott said:

    [ .... ]

    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Be specific:

    - Which sentence of that opus contains the mistake you ment
       when you said "I uniquely made his mistake more clear" ?
    - Which sentence of that opus expresses a disagreement that there are >>>>>>    any expressions that are proven completely true entirely on the >>>>>> basis
       of their meaning ?


    That he disagrees that the analytic synthetic distinction
    distinction exists. His key mistake is failing to understand
    the details of how bachelor(x) gets its semantic meanings.

    I suspect Quine's statements were much more nuanced than your
    understanding (or misunderstanding) of them would suggest.  Since you >>>> can't cite Quine's original text to back up your assertions, it seems
    more likely that these assertions are falsehoods.


    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    I am not going to wade through his double talk and weasel
    words any more deeply that his issue with how the term Bachelor(x)
    gets its meaning. He totally screwed that up proving that
    he is clueless about how words get their meaning.

    But he doesn't use double talk and weasel words.


      Quine argues that all attempts to define and
      understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
      the notion of analyticity should be rejected
      https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    So, can you define any word fully without using an undefined word or
    getting into a circular definition?



    He is stupidly wrong a about this. Analytic knowledge
    exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of knowledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    And how do you get those base facts to build you tree in a system of
    Natural Language


    *A type hierarchy is a knowledge tree acyclic graph*
      By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine
      which says that the objects of thought (or, in another
      interpretation, the symbolic expressions) are divided
      into types, namely: individuals, properties of individuals,
      relations between individuals, properties of such relations, etc.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944


    Which can't be unambigously done in a pure Natural Language.

    Simple Types are based on using a Formalized System, not Natural
    Language Systems which Quine is talking about.

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  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Apr 28 11:19:20 2025
    On 2025-04-27 18:18:42 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in language? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in a finite string
    so you can do reasoning with it?


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language >>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>> that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor
    as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of
    Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x) >>>>>>>>>>>>
    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he does not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions >>>>>>>>>>> of language that are true entirely on their semantic
    meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong.

    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately
    demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about another >>>>>>>> topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely
    on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are>
    the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction.

    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are
    proven completely true entirely on the basis of their
    meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title >>>>>> "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you >>>>>> claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with
    some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

    Quine argues that all attempts to define and
    understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
    the notion of analyticity should be rejected
    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    The problem is that in order to define anything you need words with
    known meanings. But the meanings of undefined words are fuzzy and
    ambiguous, and those meanings can only be known empirically. No
    analytic knowledge can be expressed without empirical knowledge of
    meanings of words.

    He is stupidly wrong a about this. Analytic knowledge
    exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of knowledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    A directed graph tree only relates terms to other terms. It does not
    give them any other meaning.

    --
    Mikko

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Apr 28 07:05:28 2025
    On 4/27/25 11:29 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/27/2025 2:49 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
    olcott <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:

    [ .... ]

    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking above your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with >>>>>> some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

       Quine argues that all attempts to define and
       understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
       the notion of analyticity should be rejected
       https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    He is stupidly wrong a about this.

    He was a leading academic at a prestigeous university.  It is vanishingly >> unlike that he was "stupidly wrong".  It is far more likely that you have >> failed to understand his message; that it is you who is stupidly wrong.

    Analytic knowledge exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of
    knowledge.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    An acyclic directed graph?  Highly implausible.  Any real system of
    knowledge organised in a graph (if that is even possible) is going to
    have cycles in it.  That's assuming "analytic knowledge" exists at all.

      Gödel agrees.
      *A type hierarchy is a knowledge tree acyclic graph*
      By the theory of simple types I mean the doctrine
      which says that the objects of thought (or, in another
      interpretation, the symbolic expressions) are divided
      into types, namely: individuals, properties of individuals,
      relations between individuals, properties of such relations, etc.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_type_theory#G%C3%B6del_1944


    Which needs to have a formal system of definitions, which was the sort
    of things Godel worked in, NOT a system just define by Natural Language.

    Thus, we have a fundamental listing of the axioms and definitions of the system. (Which can't be changed without changing the system).


    [ .... ]

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer




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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Apr 28 21:58:32 2025
    On 4/28/25 11:32 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/28/2025 3:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-27 18:18:42 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language?

    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a finite string so you can do reasoning with it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinction
    that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor
    as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of
    Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x)

    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions >>>>>>>>>>>>> of language that are true entirely on their semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately
    demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about >>>>>>>>>> another
    topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely >>>>>>>>> on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are> >>>>>>>>> the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction.

    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are
    proven completely true entirely on the basis of their
    meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title >>>>>>>> "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you >>>>>>>> claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems
    with some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

       Quine argues that all attempts to define and
       understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
       the notion of analyticity should be rejected
       https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    The problem is that in order to define anything you need words with
    known meanings. But the meanings of undefined words are fuzzy and
    ambiguous, and those meanings can only be known empirically. No
    analytic knowledge can be expressed without empirical knowledge of
    meanings of words.


    The otherwise meaningless term Bachelor(x) is stipulated
    to mean the predefined terms of Male(x) & ~Married(x) & Adult(x).
    This is just like BASIC
    100 let x = 5

    No, it isn't.

    The term Bachelor has multiple possible meanings. We are talking about
    the NATURAL LANUAGE, not a formalize variant of it. A Bachelor is also
    an undergraduate degree

    Note, also, even in the sense you are trying to use, there are some
    variations, as it also normally implies NEVER married, as a widow or
    divorcee are often not included in the class "Bachelor" of that sense.



    He is stupidly wrong a about this. Analytic knowledge
    exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of knowledge.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    A directed graph tree only relates terms to other terms. It does not
    give them any other meaning.


    Relating terms to other terms is all that is required
    to give all of the terms all of their meaning that can
    be expressed in words.

    And in Natural Language this is an actually impossible job to do
    completely and unambiguously in many cases.


    We need not go into the philosophy of language theories
    of how the first words acquired their original meaning.

    But that does affect the current meaningS of the words.


    We simply plug the detailed meanings into a knowledge
    ontology inheritance hierarchy. This is all encoded using
    extensions to Rudolf Carnap meaning postulates. Richard
    Montague already greatly extended these.



    Which can't be done, as the words don't have an unambiguous meaning.

    That is part of the problem that Quine was pointing out.

    Much of the previous work incorrectly presumes a somewhat fomralize
    Natural Lanugage, which make itself a contradiction, as the Natural
    Language is exactly what is used in practice, without the added
    formalization.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Apr 29 12:16:57 2025
    On 2025-04-28 15:32:05 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/28/2025 3:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-27 18:18:42 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in language? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in a finite string
    so you can do reasoning with it?


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic distinction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor
    as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of
    Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x)

    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he does not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions >>>>>>>>>>>>> of language that are true entirely on their semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately
    demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about another >>>>>>>>>> topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely >>>>>>>>> on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are> >>>>>>>>> the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction.

    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are
    proven completely true entirely on the basis of their
    meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction

    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title >>>>>>>> "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you >>>>>>>> claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't
    understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your
    knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with >>>>>> some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at
    least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue
    against.

       Quine argues that all attempts to define and
       understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
       the notion of analyticity should be rejected
       https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    The problem is that in order to define anything you need words with
    known meanings. But the meanings of undefined words are fuzzy and
    ambiguous, and those meanings can only be known empirically. No
    analytic knowledge can be expressed without empirical knowledge of
    meanings of words.


    The otherwise meaningless term Bachelor(x) is stipulated
    to mean the predefined terms of Male(x) & ~Married(x) & Adult(x).

    The word "bachelor" is a word of a natural language and has a meaning.
    A definition can relate the otherwise meaningless symbol "Bachelor" to
    the meaningless symbols "Male", "Married", and "Adult" but leaves it
    otherwise meaningless.

    This is just like BASIC
    100 let x = 5

    No, it is. BASIC defines an execution meaning to that state.
    But Minimal BASIC requires upper case letters.

    He is stupidly wrong a about this. Analytic knowledge
    exists in an acyclic directed graph tree of knowledge.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology_(information_science)

    A directed graph tree only relates terms to other terms. It does not
    give them any other meaning.

    Relating terms to other terms is all that is required
    to give all of the terms all of their meaning that can
    be expressed in words.

    You cannot relate terms to other terms before you have defined words or
    symbols and syntax to express that relation.

    We need not go into the philosophy of language theories
    of how the first words acquired their original meaning.

    Then do not.

    We simply plug the detailed meanings into a knowledge
    ontology inheritance hierarchy. This is all encoded using
    extensions to Rudolf Carnap meaning postulates. Richard
    Montague already greatly extended these.

    You cannot plug meanings into a hierarchy. You can only plug words or
    symbols.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri May 2 11:10:02 2025
    On 2025-04-30 15:52:06 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/29/2025 4:16 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-28 15:32:05 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/28/2025 3:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-27 18:18:42 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/27/2025 4:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-26 16:28:16 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/25/2025 8:37 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 4/25/25 5:14 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/25/2025 3:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-24 19:28:57 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/24/2025 3:42 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-22 18:33:18 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/22/2025 4:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-21 20:44:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/21/2025 4:48 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-04-20 17:53:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 4/20/2025 11:29 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/20/25 tic 1:33 AM, olcott wrote:
    No counter-example to the above statement exists for all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and all human reasoning that can be expressed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in language.

    But can all Human reasoning be actually expressed in language?

    For instance, how do you express the smell of a rose in a finite string
    so you can do reasoning with it?


    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/analytic-synthetic/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    all human reasoning that can be expressed in language >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <is> the {analytic} side of the analytic/synthetic distinction
    that humanity has totally screwed up since

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism
    Willard Van Orman Quine
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

    Couldn't even understand that the term Bachelor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as stipulated to have the semantic meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bachelor(x) ≡ ~Married(x) ∧ Male(x) ∧ Adult(x) ∧ Human(x)

    You mean that if Quine says something that proves that he does not know
    that thing?

    When Quine says that there is no such thing as expressions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of language that are true entirely on their semantic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning expressed in language Quine is stupidly wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Where did Quine say that?

    When he disagrees that analytic truth can be separately >>>>>>>>>>>>> demarcated.

    Where?


    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction >>>>>>>>>>>
    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
      analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/


     I uniquely made his mistake more clear.

    No, you didn't. You only made a more clear mistake but about another
    topic.


    All expressions of language that can be proven true entirely >>>>>>>>>>> on the basis of basic facts also expressed in language <are> >>>>>>>>>>> the analytic side of the analytic / synthetic distinction. >>>>>>>>>>>
    He disagrees that there are any expressions that are >>>>>>>>>>>>> proven completely true entirely on the basis of their >>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning.

    Where does he say that?

    Willard Van Orman Quine: The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction >>>>>>>>>>>
    “...he is best known for his rejection of the
    analytic/synthetic distinction.”

    https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    That page refers to many Quine's works, none of which has the title >>>>>>>>>> "The Analytic/Synthetic Distinction".

    Apparently you don't kone where or evene whther Quine said what you >>>>>>>>>> claim he said.


    Apparently you prefer to remain ignorant.
    It is common knowledge that Quine is most famous for
    rejecting the analytic/synthetic distinction by this paper:

    Two Dogmas of Empiricism --- Willard Van Orman Quine (1951)
    https://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html


    Yes, but not in the way you try to imply, because you just don't >>>>>>>> understand what he says. Your problem is he is talking about your >>>>>>>> knowledge and intelegence level, as you have seriouse problems with >>>>>>>> some of the basic concepts of language theory.

    He does not have a clue how words acquire meaning as proved
    by his failing to understand how Bachelor(x) gets its meaning.

    As he says a lot about how words acquire meaning he obviously had at >>>>>> least a clue. You can't quote even one sentence that you could argue >>>>>> against.

       Quine argues that all attempts to define and
       understand analyticity are circular. Therefore,
       the notion of analyticity should be rejected
       https://iep.utm.edu/quine-an/

    The problem is that in order to define anything you need words with
    known meanings. But the meanings of undefined words are fuzzy and
    ambiguous, and those meanings can only be known empirically. No
    analytic knowledge can be expressed without empirical knowledge of
    meanings of words.

    The otherwise meaningless term Bachelor(x) is stipulated
    to mean the predefined terms of Male(x) & ~Married(x) & Adult(x).

    The word "bachelor" is a word of a natural language and has a meaning.
    A definition can relate the otherwise meaningless symbol "Bachelor" to
    the meaningless symbols "Male", "Married", and "Adult" but leaves it
    otherwise meaningless.

    Until the knowledge ontology is fully populated with
    Rudolf Carnap meaning postulates.

    In order to attach meaning to any meaning postulates you need meaningful expessions of a natural language. Otherwilse the "meaning postulates"
    are only meaningless strings.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)