• Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN --

    From joes@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 22 18:10:53 2025
    Am Sat, 22 Feb 2025 10:43:24 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/22/2025 5:01 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Fri, 21 Feb 2025 21:55:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/20/2025 4:00 AM, joes wrote:

    Termination analyzers determine whether or not their input could
    possibly terminate normally. Nothing can toggle this.
    Not even the variable Root in line 502 of Halt7.c?
    https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c You are not
    even in the correct function.
    1059
    Unless we go through a 100% precise sequence of steps my reviewers will always consistently dodge the point as they have done for several years.
    Please do not dodge what line 1059 toggles.

    My proof is very important because it provides the key basis for a chat
    bot that can spot and perfectly refute lies in real time. This could
    save the planet and save Democracy.
    Tell your psychotherapist.

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Feb 22 19:02:32 2025
    On 2/22/25 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 5:01 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Fri, 21 Feb 2025 21:55:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/20/2025 4:00 AM, joes wrote:


    Not even the variable Root in line 502 of Halt7.c?
    https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c You are not even
    in the correct function.
    1059


    Unless we go through a 100% precise sequence of steps
    my reviewers will always consistently dodge the point
    as they have done for several years.

    typedef void (*ptr)();
    int HHH(ptr P);

    int DD()
    {
      int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
      if (Halt_Status)
        HERE: goto HERE;
      return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
      HHH(DD);
    }

    The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot
    possibly terminate normally by reaching its own "return"
    instruction.

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.


    But the defined HHH doesn't do a correct simulation, but aborts and thus
    your whole arguement is based on LIES.

    All you are proving is that you think logic allows lies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Feb 22 22:38:51 2025
    On 2/22/25 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 4:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 2:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 3:53 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 2:09 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:

    01 int F(int i)
    02 {
    03   if (i > 10)
    04     return 0;
    05   else
    06     return F(i+1);
    07 }
    08
    09 int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    10 {
    11   return F(0);
    12 }
    13
    14 int main()
    15 {
    16   F((int)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    17   return 0;
    18 }


    So if the address of no_numbers_greater_than_10 is greater than 10 >>>>>> then 0 is returned right away, otherwise as most 10 recursive
    calls will be made before the condition is matched and 0 is returned. >>>>>>
    This doesn't change the fact that no_numbers_greater_than_10
    correctly
    simulated by F cannot possibly return so
    F(no_numbers_greater_than_10)
    is correct to report non-halting, which means that there is no
    natural
    number greater than 10.

    Agreed?

    I think that you will find more bugs when you try to
    provide the line number by line number execution trace.

    #1 bug F never simulates anything.


    It is a verified fact that

    F never simulates anything when i > 10.


    Remember, you agreed that the behavior of X simulated by Y is defined
    by replacing the code of Y with an unconditional simulator and running
    Y(X):

    On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot
    possibly terminate normally by reaching its own "return"
    instruction.
    ;
    In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced with an
    unconditional simulator then it can be shown that DD is non-halting
    and therefore HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
    ;
    ;
    Wow finally someone that totally gets it.


    So the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 simulated by F is
    defined by replacing the code of F with an unconditional simulated and
    running F(no_numbers_greater_than_10).

    The finite string input to F proves that there are no instructions in
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 that can break the recursive simulation.

    Try to show how no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly simulated by F
    can possibly halt.

    Then is ceases to be analogous to HHH(DD) because no_numbers_greater_than_10() always terminates normally
    by reaching its own "return" instruction.

    Unlike HHH(DD) F((int)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    does not need to abort the emulation of its input
    to prevent its own non-termination.



    But DD also reaches its own return instruction (when run) since the
    HHH(DD) that it calls will return 0.

    Your problem is you confuse the fact that HHH needs to be designed to
    abort the simulation or it creates a DIFFERENT DD (based on that
    DIFFERENT HHH that didn't abort).

    Once HHH is defined to do the abort, as your HHH is, then the abort
    turns out to be an error, because it NEVER was based on correct logic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Feb 23 12:46:20 2025
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Sun Feb 23 19:12:25 2025
    On 2/23/25 12:35 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.


    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.


    Sure it would, as that becomes a fundamental truth in your logic system.

    We can derive that from your assumptions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Feb 24 10:41:40 2025
    On 2025-02-23 17:35:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.

    If you build the bot from a proof that implies that true <-> false
    then it is hard to avoid that "mistake". But you may be right that
    in that case the knowledge of the bot will not be correcly encoded.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 24 09:34:44 2025
    Am Sun, 23 Feb 2025 22:42:10 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/23/2025 10:09 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 10:20 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 9:15 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 9:04 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 7:22 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 8:13 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 6:15 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 7:10 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 11:57 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 8:34 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 4:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 2:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 3:53 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 2:09 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:

    01 int F(int i)
    02 {
    03   if (i > 10)
    04     return 0;
    05   else 06     return F(i+1);
    07 }
    08 09 int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    10 {
    11   return F(0);
    12 }
    13 14 int main()
    15 {
    16   F((int)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    17   return 0;
    18 }

    So if the address of no_numbers_greater_than_10 is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greater than 10 then 0 is returned right away, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise as most 10 recursive calls will be made >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the condition is matched and 0 is returned. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't change the fact that
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly simulated by F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly return so F(no_numbers_greater_than_10) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is correct to report non-halting, which means that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is no natural number greater than 10. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed?

    I think that you will find more bugs when you try to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide the line number by line number execution trace. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #1 bug F never simulates anything.

    It is a verified fact that
    F never simulates anything when i > 10.

    Remember, you agreed that the behavior of X simulated by Y >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is defined by replacing the code of Y with an unconditional >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator and running Y(X):

    On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> cannot possibly terminate normally by reaching its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> own "return" instruction.
    ;
    In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unconditional simulator then it can be shown that DD is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> non- halting and therefore HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
    ;
    Wow finally someone that totally gets it.

    So the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 simulated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> F is defined by replacing the code of F with an
    unconditional simulated and running
    F(no_numbers_greater_than_10).
    The finite string input to F proves that there are no >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructions in no_numbers_greater_than_10 that can break >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the recursive simulation.
    Try to show how no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by F can possibly halt.

    Then is ceases to be analogous to HHH(DD) because
    no_numbers_greater_than_10() always terminates normally by >>>>>>>>>>>>> reaching its own "return" instruction.

    In other words, when we actually run
    no_numbers_greater_than_10() it reaches its own "return" >>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
    That means we've now established that the direct execution of >>>>>>>>>>>> a program (which includes all the functions it calls
    UNMODIFIED) defines whether or not it halts.
    Likewise, when we actually run DD() unmodified it also >>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its own "return" instruction.
    Therefore HHH(DD)==0 is wrong.

    When DD is correctly simulated by HHH according to the
    behavior that the above machine code specifies then the call >>>>>>>>>>> from DD to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return and this correctly >>>>>>>>>>> simulated DD cannot possibly terminate  normally by reaching >>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 00002155.

    Similarly:
    0000000000400534 <no_numbers_greater_than_10>:
       400534:    55                       push   %rbp 400535:   
       48 89 e5                 mov    %rsp,%rbp 400538:    b8 34
       05 40 00           mov    $0x400534,%eax 40053d:    48 89
       c7                 mov    %rax,%rdi 400540:    e8 a8 ff ff
       ff           callq  4004ed <F> 400545:    >>>>>>>>>>    5d                       pop    %rbp 400546:   
       c3                       retq

    When no_numbers_greater_than_10 is correctly simulated by F >>>>>>>>>> according to the behavior that the above machine code specifies >>>>>>>>>> then the call from no_numbers_greater_than_10  to
    F(no_numbers_greater_than_10) cannot possibly terminate
    normally by reaching its own machine address 400545
    So F(no_numbers_greater_than_10)==0 is correct, and therefore >>>>>>>>>> no natural number exists that is greater than 10
    Agreed?

    I Only understand Intel format assembly language.

    It corresponds to the following C code:

    int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    {
       return F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    }
    So if DD is non halting, then by the same criteria
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is non-halting
    Agreed?

    I cannot see any way that you explained that the above invocation >>>>>>> does not always halt. Because of the huge bug in earlier code it >>>>>>> seems that you may be simply.

    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is structured exactly the same way as
    DD. What the code of the function F does isn't really relevant
    because your halting criteria replaces all of it with an
    unconditional simulator as the basis for a decision.  What matters >>>>>> is that it returns 0.

    I am not going to talk about your example any more.
    I'll take that as your admission that you know my example proves you
    wrong.
    With such a major bug initially in your example I am assuming that you
    don't understand it.
    You don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter what the code of F
    is.  As you yourself said:

    On 9/17/22 6:46 PM, olcott wrote:
    A halt decider must predict what the behavior of its input would be
    in the hypothetical case that it directly executed its input. The
    means for it to do this are unspecified, thus unconstrained:
    (a) Static analysis (b) Partial simulation (c) Wild guess

    Don't freaking quote what I said in 2022.
    Do you renounce it?

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 24 21:44:58 2025
    Am Mon, 24 Feb 2025 15:26:29 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/24/2025 9:03 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:48 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:11 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 12:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 11:08 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 12:01 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 10:45 PM, dbush wrote:

    The above code proves that there's no way for
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly simulated by F to reach its
    own "return" instruction.
    Therefore F would be correct to report that
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is non-halting.
    Agreed?

    It looks like you have always been wrong about your code not
    terminating. It looks like you never understood what you have been
    talking  about.

    I'll let you respond to yourself on this point:
    On 11/10/2024 10:11 AM, olcott wrote:
    If you had a basis in reasoning to show that I was wrong on this
    specific point you could provide it. You have no basis in
    reasoning on this specific point all you have is presumption.

    You say that you code stops after ten recursions and also say that it
    never stops.

    int F(uintptr_t p)
    {
       /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    No, not this at all. That would be nothing like HHH or HHH with its
    abort code disabled.
    Interesting. What, then, is HHH really, if not a simulator?

    }
    int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    {
       return F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    }
    int main()
    {
       F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
       return 0;
    }
    Try and show how the above code (i.e. no_numbers_greater_than_10
    correctly simulated by F) can possibly reach the final "return"
    instruction of no_numbers_greater_than_10
    F would be correct to report the above as non-halting
    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Feb 24 19:05:03 2025
    On 2/24/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 2:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-23 17:35:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.

    If you build the bot from a proof that implies that true <-> false

    THEN YOU ARE ENCODING IT INCORRECTLY.
    TRUE ↔ FALSE is stupidly wrong.
    Why are you suggesting something that is stupidly wrong?

    Then why do YOU make that claim by saying that when True(LP) returns
    FALSE, which means that LP is defined as not FALSE, or TRTUE, and thus
    your predicate True(LP) == True(TRUE) says that TRUE <-> FALSE


    then it is hard to avoid that "mistake". But you may be right that
    in that case the knowledge of the bot will not be correcly encoded.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Mon Feb 24 23:02:54 2025
    On 2/24/25 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:05 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 2/24/25 6:28 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 2:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-23 17:35:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.

    If you build the bot from a proof that implies that true <-> false

    THEN YOU ARE ENCODING IT INCORRECTLY.
    TRUE ↔ FALSE is stupidly wrong.
    Why are you suggesting something that is stupidly wrong?

    Then why do YOU make that claim by saying that when True(LP) returns
    FALSE, which means that LP is defined as not FALSE, or TRTUE,


    To say that Not(true) = false stupidly ignores that
    some expressions are not truth-bearers.



    But the answer of a truth predicate always is, BY DEFINITION.

    I guess you just don't understand what you are talking about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 25 08:07:57 2025
    Am Mon, 24 Feb 2025 17:16:04 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/24/2025 3:47 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 4:26 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:03 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:48 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:11 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 12:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/23/2025 11:08 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 12:01 AM, olcott wrote:


    Fine, we'll go by your more recent statement:

    On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot
    possibly terminate normally by reaching its own "return" >>>>>>>>  >>> instruction.
    ;
    In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced with an
    unconditional simulator then it can be shown that DD is non-
    halting and therefore HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
    ;
    ;
    Wow finally someone that totally gets it.


    Which stipulates that the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 >>>>>>>> correctly simulated by F is decided by what this hypothetical
    case will do:

    int F(uintptr_t p)
    {
       /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    }

    int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    {
       return F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    }

    int main()
    {
       F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
       return 0;
    }

    The above code proves that there's no way for
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly simulated by F to reach its >>>>>>>> own "return" instruction.

    Therefore F would be correct to report that
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is non-halting.

    Agreed?



    It looks like you have always been wrong about your code not
    terminating. It looks like you never understood what you have been >>>>>>> talking  about.




    I'll let you respond to yourself on this point:

    On 11/10/2024 10:11 AM, olcott wrote:
    If you had a basis in reasoning to show that I was wrong on
    this specific point you could provide it. You have no basis in >>>>>>  > reasoning on this specific point all you have is presumption.



    You say that you code stops after ten recursions and also say that
    it never stops.


    int F(uintptr_t p)
    {
        /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */

    No, not this at all. That would be nothing like HHH or HHH with its
    abort code disabled.



    It is exactly what you said X simulated by Y is defined to be:

    On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    The first point is DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly
    terminate normally by reaching its own "return"
    instruction.

    In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced with an
    unconditional
    simulator then it can be shown that DD is non-halting and therefore
    HHH(DD)==0 is correct.


    Wow finally someone that totally gets it.


    According to you, the behavior of DD correctly simulated by HHH is
    defined by this code:

    int HHH(ptr P)
    {
        /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    }

    int DD()
    {
      int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
      if (Halt_Status)
        HERE: goto HERE;
      return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
      HHH(DD);
    }


    Likewise, the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly
    simulated by F is defined by this code:


    int F(uintptr_t p)
    {
       /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */

    That is a stupid idea that has nothing to do with what I am taking
    about.
    HHH that aborts its simulation and a purely hypothetical (imaginary
    never implemented) HHH that never aborts its simulation.
    Do you mean the simulated HHH does actually abort and terminate?

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 25 08:15:39 2025
    Am Mon, 24 Feb 2025 20:15:57 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/24/2025 8:04 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:51 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:26 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:06 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:16 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 3:47 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 4:26 PM, olcott wrote:

    HHH that aborts its simulation and a purely hypothetical
    (imaginary never implemented) HHH that never aborts its
    simulation.

    Same thing.  F aborts its (admittedly poor) simulation by
    breaking out of a recursive chain, and a hypothetical F that
    performs a correct unaborted simulation.

    The simple fact that the hypothetical HHH would never terminate
    conclusively proves that DD specifies behavior that cannot
    possibly terminate normally.

    And the simple fact that the hypothetical F would never terminate
    conclusively proves that no_numbers_greater_than_10 specifies
    behavior that cannot possibly terminate normally.
    Agreed?

    I will not discuss your code.

    I'll let you respond to yourself here:
    On 11/10/2024 11:41 PM, olcott wrote:
    That is a dishonest dodge. An honest rebuttal would explain all
    of the details of how I am incorrect. You can't do that because I
    am correct.

    Your code is not isomorphic to my code thus an irrelevant change of
    subject away from the point.

    That is counter-factual.
    According to you, the behavior of DD correctly simulated by HHH is
    defined by this code:

    int HHH(ptr P)
    {
        /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    }

    I already corrected you on this misunderstanding. HHH has two versions
    the real one and the imaginary on that never aborts the simulation of
    its input.
    Why are you talking about a hypothetical non-input?

    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Feb 25 07:18:32 2025
    On 2/24/25 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 10:51 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:18 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:04 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:51 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:26 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:06 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:16 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 3:47 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 4:26 PM, olcott wrote:



    HHH that aborts its simulation and a purely
    hypothetical (imaginary never implemented)
    HHH that never aborts its simulation.



    Same thing.  F aborts its (admittedly poor) simulation by >>>>>>>>>>>> breaking out of a recursive chain, and a hypothetical F that >>>>>>>>>>>> performs a correct unaborted simulation.

    The simple fact that the hypothetical HHH would never
    terminate conclusively proves that DD specifies behavior >>>>>>>>>>> that cannot possibly terminate normally.

    And the simple fact that the hypothetical F would never
    terminate conclusively proves that no_numbers_greater_than_10 >>>>>>>>>> specifies behavior that cannot possibly terminate normally. >>>>>>>>>>
    Agreed?

    I will not discuss your code.


    I'll let you respond to yourself here:

    On 11/10/2024 11:41 PM, olcott wrote:
    That is a dishonest dodge. An honest rebuttal would explain >>>>>>>>  > all of the details of how I am incorrect. You can't do that >>>>>>>>  > because I am correct.



    Your code is not isomorphic to my code thus an
    irrelevant change of subject away from the point.




    That is counter-factual.

    According to you, the behavior of DD correctly simulated by HHH is >>>>>> defined by this code:

    int HHH(ptr P)
    {
         /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    }


    I already corrected you on this misunderstanding.
    HHH has two versions the real one and the imaginary
    on that never aborts the simulation of its input.





    And F has two versions, a real one and the imaginary one that never
    aborts the simulation of its input.

    You already said that F halts after ten invocations
    and and that F does not halt.


    Changing the subject to the direct execution of
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is the dishonest dodge of the strawman
    deception.

    The subject is the correct simulation of no_numbers_greater_than_10
    by F.

    Show me all of the code with the > 10
    conditional branch and line numbers and
    a line number by line number execution
    trace or I will write you off as playing head games.

    In a couple of weeks I start cancer treatment
    that has a 7% chance of killing me very quickly.


    Why don't you do the same for your HHH?

    Where is the claimed diffference in the trace HHH sees vs HHH1 or the
    direct execution?

    HHH sees exactly the same trace (up to the point that HHH fails to be a
    pure function, invalidating the resutls) as HHH1 and the direct
    execution, showing that the context of the call doesn't make the
    difference you claim.

    Sorry, you are just proving you are nothing but a pathologically lying hypocrite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Tue Feb 25 16:49:00 2025
    On 2025-02-24 23:28:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/24/2025 2:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-23 17:35:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.

    If you build the bot from a proof that implies that true <-> false

    THEN YOU ARE ENCODING IT INCORRECTLY.
    TRUE ↔ FALSE is stupidly wrong.
    Why are you suggesting something that is stupidly wrong?

    Because what you have presented as "proof" are based on claims that
    are sufficient for the proof of true <-> false.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 25 18:10:10 2025
    Am Tue, 25 Feb 2025 11:44:30 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 2/25/2025 8:56 AM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/25/2025 9:41 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 10:12 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:59 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 10:51 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:18 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:04 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:59 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:51 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:47 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 7:26 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:06 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 6:16 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 3:47 PM, dbush wrote:
    On 2/24/2025 4:26 PM, olcott wrote:

    HHH that aborts its simulation and a purely hypothetical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginary never implemented) HHH that never aborts its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation.

    Same thing.  F aborts its (admittedly poor) simulation by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breaking out of a recursive chain, and a hypothetical F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that performs a correct unaborted simulation.

    The simple fact that the hypothetical HHH would never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate conclusively proves that DD specifies behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that cannot possibly terminate normally.

    And the simple fact that the hypothetical F would never >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate conclusively proves that
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 specifies behavior that cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
    Agreed?

    I will not discuss your code.

    I'll let you respond to yourself here:
    On 11/10/2024 11:41 PM, olcott wrote:
    That is a dishonest dodge. An honest rebuttal would >>>>>>>>>>>>  > explain all of the details of how I am incorrect. You >>>>>>>>>>>>  > can't do that because I am correct.

    Your code is not isomorphic to my code thus an irrelevant >>>>>>>>>>> change of subject away from the point.

    That is counter-factual.
    According to you, the behavior of DD correctly simulated by HHH >>>>>>>>>> is defined by this code:
    int HHH(ptr P)
    {
         /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */ >>>>>>>>>> }

    I already corrected you on this misunderstanding. HHH has two >>>>>>>>> versions the real one and the imaginary on that never aborts the >>>>>>>>> simulation of its input.

    And F has two versions, a real one and the imaginary one that
    never aborts the simulation of its input.

    You already said that F halts after ten invocations and and that F >>>>>>> does not halt.

    Changing the subject to the direct execution of
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 is the dishonest dodge of the strawman
    deception.
    The subject is the correct simulation of no_numbers_greater_than_10 >>>>>> by F.

    Show me all of the code with the > 10 conditional branch and line
    numbers and a line number by line number execution trace or I will
    write you off as playing head games.

    The actual code of F doesn't matter, as your criteria requires
    replacing all of the code of F with an unconditional simulator.

    So according to you, the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10
    simulated by F is defined by the following hypothetical code.
    1  int F(uintptr_t p)
    2  {
    3    /* replace all code with an unconditional simulator */
    Too vague i > 10 is missing

    Not at all.  F(no_numbers_greater_than_10) correctly reports that
    no_numbers_greater_than_10 specifies non-halting behavior to F, as
    measured by your criteria of replacing all code of F with an
    unconditional simulator.
    I AM NEVER RELPLACING ALL THE CODE STF ABOUT THAT
    Yes you are turning off the abort check in line 1052 IIRC.

    4  }
    5
    6  int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
    7  {
    8     return F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    9  }
    10 11 int main()
    12 {
    13    F((uintptr_t)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
    14    return 0;
    15 }

    The trace of this is 13, 3 (simulator code), 8, 3 (simulator code),
    8, 3 (simulator code), ...
    So clearly no_numbers_greater_than_10 specifies non-halting behavior
    to F, as per your criteria
    --
    Am Sat, 20 Jul 2024 12:35:31 +0000 schrieb WM in sci.math:
    It is not guaranteed that n+1 exists for every n.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to olcott on Wed Feb 26 10:44:54 2025
    On 2025-02-25 21:13:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/25/2025 8:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-24 23:28:30 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/24/2025 2:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-23 17:35:46 +0000, olcott said:

    On 2/23/2025 4:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-02-22 16:43:24 +0000, olcott said:

    My proof is very important because it provides the key
    basis for a chat bot that can spot and perfectly refute
    lies in real time. This could save the planet and save
    Democracy.

    Unlikely to work if you let the chat bot to assume or infer
    that false <-> true.

    When its knowledge is correctly encoded it would never make
    that stupid mistake.

    If you build the bot from a proof that implies that true <-> false

    THEN YOU ARE ENCODING IT INCORRECTLY.
    TRUE ↔ FALSE is stupidly wrong.
    Why are you suggesting something that is stupidly wrong?

    Because what you have presented as "proof" are based on claims that
    are sufficient for the proof of true <-> false.

    Please provide the reasoning for that stupid nonsense

    In this discussion you have assumeed that HHH does abort its simulation
    and that HHH does not abort its simulation. Therefore the statement can
    be inferred "HHH aborts its simulation" to be both true and false, so
    true <-> false.

    --
    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)