• Re: Defining a correct simulating halt decider --- Trump and Hitler

    From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 08:51:13 2024
    On 9/12/24 8:29 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 6:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:50 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 7:17 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 11.sep.2024 om 13:41 schreef olcott:
    On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said:

    Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A halt decider is a Turing machine that computes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mapping from
    its finite string input to the behavior that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this finite string
    specifies.

    A halt decider needn't compute the full >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour, only whether
    that behaviour is finite or infinite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt Decider >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation

    Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation Stopped

    Hence  HHH(DDD)==0 is correct

    Nice to see that you don't disagree with what said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates,
    os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not return and
    therefore is not a ceicder.
    The directly executed HHH is a decider.
    What does simulating it change about that?

    If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR

    However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> original
    behaviour.


    _DDD()
    [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
    [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
    [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
    [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
    [00002183] c3         ret
    Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]

    A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even
    if this machine code catches the machine on fire.

    It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to
    reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!!

    A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine address >>>>>>>>>>>> 0000217f and
    a little later 00002183.

    *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show otherwise* >>>>>>>>>>
    A halt decider is required to predict about the actual execution, >>>>>>>>>> not a couterfactual assumption.


    False assumption.
    A halt decider must compute the mapping that its input
    finite string specifies.

    And the input, a finite string that describes a program based on >>>>>>>> the aborting HHH, describes a halting program, as proven by the >>>>>>>> direct execution, by the unmodified world class simulator and
    even by HHH1. The semantics of the x86 language allows only one >>>>>>>> behaviour for the finite string. Any program claiming another
    behaviour violates the semantics of the x86 language,


    It is ridiculously stupid to assume that the fact
    that DDD calls its own emulator does not change
    its behavior relative to not calling its own emulator.

    It ridiculous to assume that the semantics of the x86 language >>>>>>>> allows another behaviour for the finite string.


    Why do you have a religious conviction to this stupid
    mistake?

    Once we understand we can make a machine that detects
    lies in real time on the basis of knowing truth we will
    know that we didn't have to die from climate change or
    allow the rise of the fourth Reich.



    Are you sure we can do that?

    The problem seems to be that you are ASSUMING it.


    The key is (as I have been saying for a long time)
    To anchor the accurate model of the actual world in axioms.

    And how do you know your axiom about the actual world are correct?
    Things about what we have defined are one thing. (like defining a
    foot to be 12 inches). But anything that is based on observation
    inherently has a degree of error, and thus we can't actually KNOW if
    our conclusions are true.


    *AS FREAKING DETAILED BELOW*
    Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI:
    What LLMs might learn from Cyc
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2308/2308.04445.pdf

    Which absolutely can't tell if something about an empirical
    statement is actually correct, as it is a pure analytic system.


    Such a system can immediately call out the hired liars
    of climate change by doing as I have have done directly
    studying the raw data.

    So, PRESENT the actual data that LOGICLY PROVES what you claim.
    Remember, your claim is a logical proof from axioms, and axioms need
    to be the AGREED upon must be trues of the system.

    So, not this is the "best" answer, but this is the only possible
    answer no matter how strange of a case we might be in.


    Severe anthropogenic climate change proven entirely with verifiable facts

    Nope, you begin asserting your assumption and never prove it.

    Note, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

    You are just proving that youy are too stupid to make an actual correct arguement.


    https://www.researchgate.net/ publication/336568434_Severe_anthropogenic_climate_change_proven_entirely_with_verifiable_facts

    The drastic increase is CO2 since 1959 is 126-fold faster than
    any time in the last 800,000 years according to the raw data.
    The raw data is taken to be an axiom.

    Which can't prove the CAUSE.



    It is well established science that climate is sensitive to
    increases in CO2. This is taken to be an axiom.

    But doesn't prove the CAUSE.


    Counter-arguments against this axiom are incoherent.
    "I just don't believe it" is a claim without a basis,
    thus disregarded.

    And I can't think of another possiblity is not proof.



    It can also fully understand every argument ever made that
    climate change is real and every counter-argument making
    the counter arguments look ridiculously foolish at every
    language level from kindergarten to PhD expert in the field.


    Nope, At best it will do what you are doing and just be making up shit.



    *It only needs the single rule of coherence to do this*
    (and direct access to everything ever written by anyone).

    Nope, not enough to PROVE the actual link


    It will prove that rebuttals are incoherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is coherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is true within the model
    of the actual world.

    No, it proves YOU are incoherent, as you base your arguement on absolute assertings that can not be absolutely proven.



    Refuting that election fraud changed the outcome of the 2020
    presidential election is only a high school level debate.

    But not LOGICALLY PROVAVLE because we can't prove the absence of data
    we don't know about. We can show that odds are vanishly small, but not
    that they are zero, because we can't know FOR CERTAIN that


    We prove that no one has ever provided any evidence that Trump
    is not lying about election fraud. We prove that Trump is exactly
    copying Hitler by repeating the same claim about election fraud
    over and over.

    Which doesn't prove that no such evidence could exist.


    "The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence
    is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of
    these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few
    points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the
    public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As
    soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect
    will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest nor retain the
    material offered. In this way the result is weakened and in the end
    entirely cancelled out."
    A direct quote from Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler (1926)

    We have proven that Trump is exactly copying Hitler and it
    is unreasonably implausible that Trump is not lying about
    election fraud.

    And you seem to think that implausible means impossible which just
    proves you don't understand the definition of Truth and Logic,



    No one else in the history of the US presidency (Besides Trump)
    has ever exactly copied Hitler by repeating the same lie over
    and over until 45% of voters accepted it as true entirely on the
    basis of this repetition. *It has always been completely baseless*

    Is that why you have copied your idos mythology? Just keep repeating
    your LIES and ignore the truth?

    That *IS* what you are doing.

    You IGNORE the actual definition and make up your own, and just assume
    that what you want it true. That is the heart of a pahological liar.


    In other words you would baselessly denigrate me at the expense
    of the survival of the species and at the expense of the rise
    of the fourth Reich.

    No, I denigrate you to point out that we need to use REAL logic to
    determine the best plan of actions, and not accept as fact things that
    are claimed without solid evidence.

    Only by understanding the difference between what we know, what we can
    know, and what is actually the truth, can we improve our knowledge and
    keep it as accurate as possible.

    Once you confuse those things, you allow unchecked error into you
    knowledge and lose it.

    That is what has happened to you.




    Your problem, again, is that you just don't understand what you are
    reading, or talking about, because you have literally decided not to
    study the core of logic to know how it works, and thus are speaking
    out of pure ignorance.


    *Some of the most brilliant minds in AI for 40 years*
    Doug Lenat Gary Marcus July 31, 2023










    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 14:09:40 2024
    On 9/12/24 9:12 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 7:51 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 8:29 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 6:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:50 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 7:17 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 11.sep.2024 om 13:41 schreef olcott:
    On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said:

    Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A halt decider is a Turing machine that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computes the mapping from
    its finite string input to the behavior that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this finite string
    specifies.

    A halt decider needn't compute the full >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour, only whether
    that behaviour is finite or infinite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Decider Simulation

    Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation Stopped

    Hence  HHH(DDD)==0 is correct

    Nice to see that you don't disagree with what said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates,
    os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state.

    If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not return and
    therefore is not a ceicder.
    The directly executed HHH is a decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does simulating it change about that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR

    However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> original
    behaviour.


    _DDD()
    [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
    [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
    [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
    [00002183] c3         ret
    Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]

    A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if this machine code catches the machine on fire. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine address >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0000217f and
    a little later 00002183.

    *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show >>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise*

    A halt decider is required to predict about the actual >>>>>>>>>>>> execution,
    not a couterfactual assumption.


    False assumption.
    A halt decider must compute the mapping that its input
    finite string specifies.

    And the input, a finite string that describes a program based >>>>>>>>>> on the aborting HHH, describes a halting program, as proven by >>>>>>>>>> the direct execution, by the unmodified world class simulator >>>>>>>>>> and even by HHH1. The semantics of the x86 language allows >>>>>>>>>> only one behaviour for the finite string. Any program claiming >>>>>>>>>> another behaviour violates the semantics of the x86 language, >>>>>>>>>>

    It is ridiculously stupid to assume that the fact
    that DDD calls its own emulator does not change
    its behavior relative to not calling its own emulator.

    It ridiculous to assume that the semantics of the x86 language >>>>>>>>>> allows another behaviour for the finite string.


    Why do you have a religious conviction to this stupid
    mistake?

    Once we understand we can make a machine that detects
    lies in real time on the basis of knowing truth we will
    know that we didn't have to die from climate change or
    allow the rise of the fourth Reich.



    Are you sure we can do that?

    The problem seems to be that you are ASSUMING it.


    The key is (as I have been saying for a long time)
    To anchor the accurate model of the actual world in axioms.

    And how do you know your axiom about the actual world are correct? >>>>>> Things about what we have defined are one thing. (like defining a
    foot to be 12 inches). But anything that is based on observation
    inherently has a degree of error, and thus we can't actually KNOW
    if our conclusions are true.


    *AS FREAKING DETAILED BELOW*
    Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI:
    What LLMs might learn from Cyc
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2308/2308.04445.pdf

    Which absolutely can't tell if something about an empirical
    statement is actually correct, as it is a pure analytic system.


    Such a system can immediately call out the hired liars
    of climate change by doing as I have have done directly
    studying the raw data.

    So, PRESENT the actual data that LOGICLY PROVES what you claim.
    Remember, your claim is a logical proof from axioms, and axioms need
    to be the AGREED upon must be trues of the system.

    So, not this is the "best" answer, but this is the only possible
    answer no matter how strange of a case we might be in.


    Severe anthropogenic climate change proven entirely with verifiable
    facts

    Nope, you begin asserting your assumption and never prove it.

    Note, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

    You are just proving that youy are too stupid to make an actual
    correct arguement.


    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/336568434_Severe_anthropogenic_climate_change_proven_entirely_with_verifiable_facts

    The drastic increase is CO2 since 1959 is 126-fold faster than
    any time in the last 800,000 years according to the raw data.
    The raw data is taken to be an axiom.

    Which can't prove the CAUSE.


    We have no proof that five minutes ago ever existed.
    We have sufficient weight of evidence that humans
    have cause severe climate change.

    So, you ADMIT that you have lied about the ability to PROVE your
    statement as an actual ANALYTIC PROOF.

    You are just proving you don't understand what you are talking about.

    There is a categorical difference between a LOGICAL PROOF of a
    statement, and the ability to determine that it is sufficiently likely
    to be true to be "accepted".




    It is well established science that climate is sensitive to
    increases in CO2. This is taken to be an axiom.

    But doesn't prove the CAUSE.


    Counter-arguments against this axiom are incoherent.
    "I just don't believe it" is a claim without a basis,
    thus disregarded.

    And I can't think of another possiblity is not proof.



    It can also fully understand every argument ever made that
    climate change is real and every counter-argument making
    the counter arguments look ridiculously foolish at every
    language level from kindergarten to PhD expert in the field.


    Nope, At best it will do what you are doing and just be making up shit. >>>>


    *It only needs the single rule of coherence to do this*
    (and direct access to everything ever written by anyone).

    Nope, not enough to PROVE the actual link


    It will prove that rebuttals are incoherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is coherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is true within the model
    of the actual world.

    No, it proves YOU are incoherent, as you base your arguement on
    absolute assertings that can not be absolutely proven.


    Within the model of the actual world it is complete proof.


    There is, and can not be (at least by mortal humans) a correct model of
    the actual world.

    You just admitted that,




    Refuting that election fraud changed the outcome of the 2020
    presidential election is only a high school level debate.

    But not LOGICALLY PROVAVLE because we can't prove the absence of
    data we don't know about. We can show that odds are vanishly small,
    but not that they are zero, because we can't know FOR CERTAIN that


    We prove that no one has ever provided any evidence that Trump
    is not lying about election fraud. We prove that Trump is exactly
    copying Hitler by repeating the same claim about election fraud
    over and over.

    Which doesn't prove that no such evidence could exist.


    It proves that Trump is lying.

    No, it proves that it is almost certain that he is lying, but proving it
    to the level of LOGICAL PROOF is generally impossible unless you can
    find actual contradictions in statements.




    "The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their
    intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In
    consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited
    to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last
    member of the public understands what you want him to understand by
    your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-
    sided, the effect will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest
    nor retain the material offered. In this way the result is weakened
    and in the end entirely cancelled out."
    A direct quote from Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler (1926)

    We have proven that Trump is exactly copying Hitler and it
    is unreasonably implausible that Trump is not lying about
    election fraud.

    And you seem to think that implausible means impossible which just
    proves you don't understand the definition of Truth and Logic,


    It it not impossible that 10,000 microscopic
    space aliens living in your left thumb are
    controlling the words that you are saying.
    It is unreasonably implausible.

    So, you AGREE that you have lied that you can LOGICALLY PROVE your
    assertion.

    The fundamental fact is you don't understand the difference between what
    a LOGICAL PROOF is and what is what is sufficently supported to be
    considered to be "accepted as true".





    No one else in the history of the US presidency (Besides Trump)
    has ever exactly copied Hitler by repeating the same lie over
    and over until 45% of voters accepted it as true entirely on the
    basis of this repetition. *It has always been completely baseless*

    Is that why you have copied your idos mythology? Just keep repeating
    your LIES and ignore the truth?

    That *IS* what you are doing.

    You IGNORE the actual definition and make up your own, and just
    assume that what you want it true. That is the heart of a
    pahological liar.


    In other words you would baselessly denigrate me at the expense
    of the survival of the species and at the expense of the rise
    of the fourth Reich.

    No, I denigrate you to point out that we need to use REAL logic to
    determine the best plan of actions, and not accept as fact things that
    are claimed without solid evidence.


    You merely prove that you are clueless about inductive inference.
    All science and knowledge of the world is less than 100% perfectly
    certain yet it is the best that we have. If you have brain cancer
    are you going cure it with orange juice or medical methods?

    Right, and thus NOT LOGICALLY PROVEN like you claim

    You are just admitting that you statement are based on logic that
    considers LIES to be a valid logical form.

    Sorry, you are proving that you are not a reliable source of information.


    Only by understanding the difference between what we know, what we can
    know, and what is actually the truth, can we improve our knowledge and
    keep it as accurate as possible.

    Once you confuse those things, you allow unchecked error into you
    knowledge and lose it.

    That is what has happened to you.




    Your problem, again, is that you just don't understand what you
    are reading, or talking about, because you have literally decided
    not to study the core of logic to know how it works, and thus are
    speaking out of pure ignorance.


    *Some of the most brilliant minds in AI for 40 years*
    Doug Lenat Gary Marcus July 31, 2023













    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 16:47:28 2024
    On 9/12/24 2:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 1:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 9:12 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 7:51 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 8:29 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 6:53 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:50 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 6:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/11/24 7:17 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/11/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
    Op 11.sep.2024 om 13:41 schreef olcott:
    On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said:

    On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A halt decider is a Turing machine that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computes the mapping from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its finite string input to the behavior that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this finite string
    specifies.

    A halt decider needn't compute the full >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour, only whether
    that behaviour is finite or infinite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Decider Simulation

    Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Detected Simulation Stopped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Hence  HHH(DDD)==0 is correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Nice to see that you don't disagree with what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said.
    Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates,
    os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state.

    If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not return and
    therefore is not a ceicder.
    The directly executed HHH is a decider. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does simulating it change about that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> original
    behaviour.


    _DDD()
    [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
    [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
    [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
    [00002183] c3         ret
    Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]

    A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if this machine code catches the machine on fire. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address 0000217f and
    a little later 00002183.

    *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise*

    A halt decider is required to predict about the actual >>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution,
    not a couterfactual assumption.


    False assumption.
    A halt decider must compute the mapping that its input >>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string specifies.

    And the input, a finite string that describes a program >>>>>>>>>>>> based on the aborting HHH, describes a halting program, as >>>>>>>>>>>> proven by the direct execution, by the unmodified world >>>>>>>>>>>> class simulator and even by HHH1. The semantics of the x86 >>>>>>>>>>>> language allows only one behaviour for the finite string. >>>>>>>>>>>> Any program claiming another behaviour violates the
    semantics of the x86 language,


    It is ridiculously stupid to assume that the fact
    that DDD calls its own emulator does not change
    its behavior relative to not calling its own emulator. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    It ridiculous to assume that the semantics of the x86
    language allows another behaviour for the finite string. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    Why do you have a religious conviction to this stupid
    mistake?

    Once we understand we can make a machine that detects
    lies in real time on the basis of knowing truth we will
    know that we didn't have to die from climate change or
    allow the rise of the fourth Reich.



    Are you sure we can do that?

    The problem seems to be that you are ASSUMING it.


    The key is (as I have been saying for a long time)
    To anchor the accurate model of the actual world in axioms.

    And how do you know your axiom about the actual world are
    correct? Things about what we have defined are one thing. (like >>>>>>>> defining a foot to be 12 inches). But anything that is based on >>>>>>>> observation inherently has a degree of error, and thus we can't >>>>>>>> actually KNOW if our conclusions are true.


    *AS FREAKING DETAILED BELOW*
    Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI:
    What LLMs might learn from Cyc
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2308/2308.04445.pdf

    Which absolutely can't tell if something about an empirical
    statement is actually correct, as it is a pure analytic system. >>>>>>>>

    Such a system can immediately call out the hired liars
    of climate change by doing as I have have done directly
    studying the raw data.

    So, PRESENT the actual data that LOGICLY PROVES what you claim.
    Remember, your claim is a logical proof from axioms, and axioms
    need to be the AGREED upon must be trues of the system.

    So, not this is the "best" answer, but this is the only possible
    answer no matter how strange of a case we might be in.


    Severe anthropogenic climate change proven entirely with verifiable
    facts

    Nope, you begin asserting your assumption and never prove it.

    Note, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

    You are just proving that youy are too stupid to make an actual
    correct arguement.


    https://www.researchgate.net/
    publication/336568434_Severe_anthropogenic_climate_change_proven_entirely_with_verifiable_facts

    The drastic increase is CO2 since 1959 is 126-fold faster than
    any time in the last 800,000 years according to the raw data.
    The raw data is taken to be an axiom.

    Which can't prove the CAUSE.


    We have no proof that five minutes ago ever existed.
    We have sufficient weight of evidence that humans
    have cause severe climate change.

    So, you ADMIT that you have lied about the ability to PROVE your
    statement as an actual ANALYTIC PROOF.


    "Proof" in a court of law is not a mathematical proof, dipshit?.

    Right, so your claiming the development of a system of LOGIC means you
    are not talking about "legal proof" (to the specified level of doubt)
    but the mathematical level where proof means ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.

    You are just getting yourself stuck in your own trap. You want to
    strengthen the requirements for a logical proof, so you can can claim
    things proven that can not be logically proven.

    You are just proving your stupidity,

    I guess you are just admitting that you have lied aobut what you avhe
    been doing for all these years, becaus you keep on forgetting what level
    of standard you are using.

    Is that why you claim your halt deciders have "proven" there input is non-halting (when you need to ignore the actual evidence of halting)
    because you think you have presented enough evidence to support your
    arguement?

    Sorry, you are just proving you are nothing but a stupid liar.


    You are just proving you don't understand what you are talking about.

    There is a categorical difference between a LOGICAL PROOF of a
    statement, and the ability to determine that it is sufficiently likely
    to be true to be "accepted".




    It is well established science that climate is sensitive to
    increases in CO2. This is taken to be an axiom.

    But doesn't prove the CAUSE.


    Counter-arguments against this axiom are incoherent.
    "I just don't believe it" is a claim without a basis,
    thus disregarded.

    And I can't think of another possiblity is not proof.



    It can also fully understand every argument ever made that
    climate change is real and every counter-argument making
    the counter arguments look ridiculously foolish at every
    language level from kindergarten to PhD expert in the field.


    Nope, At best it will do what you are doing and just be making up
    shit.



    *It only needs the single rule of coherence to do this*
    (and direct access to everything ever written by anyone).

    Nope, not enough to PROVE the actual link


    It will prove that rebuttals are incoherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is coherent. It will prove
    that the claim of climate change is true within the model
    of the actual world.

    No, it proves YOU are incoherent, as you base your arguement on
    absolute assertings that can not be absolutely proven.


    Within the model of the actual world it is complete proof.


    There is, and can not be (at least by mortal humans) a correct model
    of the actual world.

    You just admitted that,




    Refuting that election fraud changed the outcome of the 2020
    presidential election is only a high school level debate.

    But not LOGICALLY PROVAVLE because we can't prove the absence of
    data we don't know about. We can show that odds are vanishly
    small, but not that they are zero, because we can't know FOR
    CERTAIN that


    We prove that no one has ever provided any evidence that Trump
    is not lying about election fraud. We prove that Trump is exactly
    copying Hitler by repeating the same claim about election fraud
    over and over.

    Which doesn't prove that no such evidence could exist.


    It proves that Trump is lying.

    No, it proves that it is almost certain that he is lying, but proving
    it to the level of LOGICAL PROOF is generally impossible unless you
    can find actual contradictions in statements.




    "The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their
    intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous.
    In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be
    limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans
    until the last member of the public understands what you want him
    to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan
    and try to be many- sided, the effect will piddle away, for the
    crowd can neither digest nor retain the material offered. In this
    way the result is weakened and in the end entirely cancelled out."
    A direct quote from Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler (1926)

    We have proven that Trump is exactly copying Hitler and it
    is unreasonably implausible that Trump is not lying about
    election fraud.

    And you seem to think that implausible means impossible which just
    proves you don't understand the definition of Truth and Logic,


    It it not impossible that 10,000 microscopic
    space aliens living in your left thumb are
    controlling the words that you are saying.
    It is unreasonably implausible.

    So, you AGREE that you have lied that you can LOGICALLY PROVE your
    assertion.

    The fundamental fact is you don't understand the difference between
    what a LOGICAL PROOF is and what is what is sufficently supported to
    be considered to be "accepted as true".





    No one else in the history of the US presidency (Besides Trump)
    has ever exactly copied Hitler by repeating the same lie over
    and over until 45% of voters accepted it as true entirely on the >>>>>>> basis of this repetition. *It has always been completely baseless* >>>>>>
    Is that why you have copied your idos mythology? Just keep
    repeating your LIES and ignore the truth?

    That *IS* what you are doing.

    You IGNORE the actual definition and make up your own, and just
    assume that what you want it true. That is the heart of a
    pahological liar.


    In other words you would baselessly denigrate me at the expense
    of the survival of the species and at the expense of the rise
    of the fourth Reich.

    No, I denigrate you to point out that we need to use REAL logic to
    determine the best plan of actions, and not accept as fact things
    that are claimed without solid evidence.


    You merely prove that you are clueless about inductive inference.
    All science and knowledge of the world is less than 100% perfectly
    certain yet it is the best that we have. If you have brain cancer
    are you going cure it with orange juice or medical methods?

    Right, and thus NOT LOGICALLY PROVEN like you claim

    You are just admitting that you statement are based on logic that
    considers LIES to be a valid logical form.

    Sorry, you are proving that you are not a reliable source of information.


    Only by understanding the difference between what we know, what we
    can know, and what is actually the truth, can we improve our
    knowledge and keep it as accurate as possible.

    Once you confuse those things, you allow unchecked error into you
    knowledge and lose it.

    That is what has happened to you.




    Your problem, again, is that you just don't understand what you >>>>>>>> are reading, or talking about, because you have literally
    decided not to study the core of logic to know how it works, and >>>>>>>> thus are speaking out of pure ignorance.


    *Some of the most brilliant minds in AI for 40 years*
    Doug Lenat Gary Marcus July 31, 2023
















    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Sep 12 21:40:28 2024
    On 9/12/24 9:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 3:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 2:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 1:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    So, you ADMIT that you have lied about the ability to PROVE your
    statement as an actual ANALYTIC PROOF.


    "Proof" in a court of law is not a mathematical proof, dipshit?.

    Right, so your claiming the development of a system of LOGIC means you
    are not talking about "legal proof" (to the specified level of doubt)
    but the mathematical level where proof means ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.


    Absolute certainty within a set of axioms.

    But we don't know the correct set of axioms.


    When we search the body of everything that was ever written
    down and find that there was never any actual evidence of
    election fraud that was sufficient to change the outcome of
    the 2020 presidential election then we can say with 100%
    perfect certainty that this evidence does not exist in
    everything that was ever written down.


    Just shows you don't understand what you are talking about.

    After all, if you REALLY read EVERYTHING written about what happened,
    you WILL find statements claiming people seeing things that could have
    been signs of things indicating evidence of the needed level of voter
    fraud. Only when you look into that statements, and what physical
    evidence might back it, do we find those statement to be unbelievable,
    but you can't do that by "axioms".

    There are statistical analysis showing it to be "virtually impossible"
    for the vote total swings to go as they went (based on some simple
    claimed to be reasonable statisitcal models)

    This shows that "Logic" isn't enough, but you need the right discretion
    to make the correct initial axioms, and the "deniers" will just disagree
    with that choise of axioms, and thus your "proof" becomes invalid in
    their eyes.

    Thus, we see the utter stupidity in your logic, because you need to
    agree with your claims to see that you are right, which is NOT a "proof"
    in any sense of the words.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Fri Sep 13 12:56:31 2024
    On 9/13/24 10:24 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 8:40 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 9:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 3:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 9/12/24 2:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 9/12/2024 1:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    So, you ADMIT that you have lied about the ability to PROVE your
    statement as an actual ANALYTIC PROOF.


    "Proof" in a court of law is not a mathematical proof, dipshit?.

    Right, so your claiming the development of a system of LOGIC means
    you are not talking about "legal proof" (to the specified level of
    doubt) but the mathematical level where proof means ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. >>>>

    Absolute certainty within a set of axioms.

    But we don't know the correct set of axioms.


    When we search the body of everything that was ever written
    down and find that there was never any actual evidence of
    election fraud that was sufficient to change the outcome of
    the 2020 presidential election then we can say with 100%
    perfect certainty that this evidence does not exist in
    everything that was ever written down.


    Just shows you don't understand what you are talking about.

    After all,  if you REALLY read EVERYTHING written about what happened,
    you WILL find statements claiming people seeing things that could have
    been signs of things indicating evidence of the needed level of voter
    fraud. Only when you look into that statements, and what physical
    evidence might back it, do we find those statement to be unbelievable,
    but you can't do that by "axioms".

    There are statistical analysis showing it to be "virtually impossible"
    for the vote total swings to go as they went (based on some simple
    claimed to be reasonable statisitcal models)

    This shows that "Logic" isn't enough, but you need the right
    discretion to make the correct initial axioms, and the "deniers" will
    just disagree with that choise of axioms, and thus your "proof"
    becomes invalid in their eyes.

    Thus, we see the utter stupidity in your logic, because you need to
    agree with your claims to see that you are right, which is NOT a
    "proof" in any sense of the words.

    Actual evidence has a sufficiently precise legal definition.
    That 45% of the electorate hear the same baseless lie repeated
    does not count as any actual evidence what-so-ever in any court
    of law. It must be evidence that election fraud did occur and
    cannot be evidence that election fraud could have possibly occurred.


    Yes, and that legal definition comes with a part that says it can only
    be determined by the appropriate Court of Law, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for
    any program to actually determine "sufficently evidence" excpet by
    finding a court case pronouncing it, and even that might not be binding
    on another court.

    "Rules of Evidence" are matters for LEGAL cases, not the determination
    of "Truth".

    Sorry, but you are just showing your ignorance of what you talk about.

    *YOU* Made the claim that you think it is possible for "AI" to determine
    ACTUAL TRUTH, and then you back off and admit that you doh't mean that
    but something else, but you alse want to try to claim that to be actual
    truth.

    Sorry, all you are doing is proving that you are too stupid to
    understand what you are actually talking about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)