• Re: Ben thinks processor Sipser is wrong

    From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to olcott on Thu Jul 4 14:17:54 2024
    XPost: sci.logic

    On 7/4/24 2:02 PM, olcott wrote:
    <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
        If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
        until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
        stop running unless aborted then

        H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
        specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
    </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>

    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H (it's
    trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
    *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
    ...
    But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it were not
    halted.  That much is a truism.

    Ben clearly agrees that the above criteria have been met,
    yet feels that professor Sipser was tricked into agreeing
    that this means that:
        H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
        specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.

    I spent two years deriving those words that Professor Sipser
    agreed with. It seems to me that every software engineer would
    agree that the second part is logically entailed by the first part.



    You mean you WASTED two years and set a trap for your self that you fell
    into.

    The problem is that Ben is adopting your definitions that professor
    Sipser is not using.

    In particular, for professor Sipser, D must be a program (a turing
    machine equivalent) but I think Ben is seeing that you H is being
    defined to take a TEMPLATE instead of a program.

    Another way to look at thins is that H and P are entertwined entities
    and not two seperate programs in the system Ben was commenting about.

    For Professor Sipser, H and D are REQUIRED to be independent entities,
    since that is what Computation Theory deals with.

    So, the two problems are in completely different domains.

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  • From joes@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 5 09:55:48 2024
    Am Thu, 04 Jul 2024 13:02:22 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
    If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D until
    H correctly determines that its simulated D would never stop
    running unless aborted then
    H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
    specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
    </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>

    On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H (it's
    trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
    *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
    ...
    But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it were not
    halted. That much is a truism.

    Ben clearly agrees that the above criteria have been met,
    yet feels that professor Sipser was tricked into agreeing that this
    means that:
    H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
    specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
    That seems to me to be the same sentence.

    I spent two years deriving those words that Professor Sipser agreed
    with. It seems to me that every software engineer would agree that the
    second part is logically entailed by the first part.
    I can‘t see anywhere that Ben said that the simulation is correct.
    I read only the counterfactual „if it weren’t aborted” (which it is).

    --
    Am Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:52:17 -0500 schrieb olcott:
    Objectively I am a genius.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)