• Re: Ventura for the rest of us

    From Snit@21:1/5 to johnson on Thu Oct 27 21:14:18 2022
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on
    my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time
    Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.


    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA


    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leonard Blaisdell@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 21:05:36 2022
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on
    my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From johnson@21:1/5 to Leonard Blaisdell on Thu Oct 27 21:08:58 2022
    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on
    my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.


    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Snit on Fri Oct 28 16:22:43 2022
    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on >>> my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time >>> Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.


    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!) ... at the expense of not fixing all
    the existing bugs, some of which date waht back to the first version of
    MacOS X. :-(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Your Name on Fri Oct 28 03:57:30 2022
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on >>>> my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time >>>> Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.


    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will like >> it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not the
    same as that, either.

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that is being gimmicky. I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed by the choices... who
    knew macOS would get to the point of having overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all
    the existing bugs, some of which date waht back to the first version of
    MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of? And Stage Manager adds some new ones -- or at least implementation features I do not like. My current pet peeve: if I am watching a video and I get a call, the video goes away into an "App Stack" or whatever they are called (should be window stack, but that is a different nit) and the phone pops up. Not easy to turn off the damn video before I get the call. Not even the pause button on the keyboard does it. That is stupid.

    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Snit on Fri Oct 28 18:35:56 2022
    On 2022-10-28 03:57:30 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item >>>>> on my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my >>>>> Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it >>>>> in again. That worked. I haven't explored much further.

    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will
    like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not the same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide
    the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick. Everyone will be jumping
    up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about five minutes, and then
    it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people actually use it. Eventually
    Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to replace it with another
    silly gimmick nobody asked for.



    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it better
    than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks. It's
    those coming from Windoze world who get confused because Mac apps don't (usually) take over the entire screen and hide all the other apps from
    view.



    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that is being gimmicky.
    I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed by the choices... who knew macOS would get to the point of having overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which
    date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated
    gimmicks simply add more.



    And Stage Manager adds some new ones -- or at least implementation
    features I do not like. My current pet peeve: if I am watching a video
    and I get a call, the video goes away into an "App Stack" or whatever
    they are called (should be window stack, but that is a different nit)
    and the phone pops up. Not easy to turn off the damn video before I get
    the call. Not even the pause button on the keyboard does it. That is
    stupid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joerg Lorenz@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 28 08:36:56 2022
    Am 27.10.22 um 23:08 schrieb johnson:
    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote:
    I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item on
    my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my Time
    Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it in
    again. That worked.
    I haven't explored much further.


    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Do, not see any benefit in the Stage Manager.
    I'm very conservative: Minimum use of resources and access to everything
    as quickly as possible. These toys are rather distracting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnHrVoOmUJs

    And the advertising for this snake oil software to keep the Mac clean is
    close to criminal offense.



    --
    Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Your Name on Fri Oct 28 07:48:41 2022
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 10:35:56 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjfpns$7sl$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-28 03:57:30 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:

    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item >>>>>> on my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my >>>>>> Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it >>>>>> in again. That worked. I haven't explored much further.

    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will >>>> like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not the >> same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide
    the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage Manager is more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different desktop), and it has
    some different features.

    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick.

    If you do not find it useful then do not use it. I might end up just turning
    it off. I am finding as I open new apps I am finding it a but annoying. We shall see.

    Everyone will be jumping
    up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about five minutes, and then
    it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people actually use it. Eventually
    Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to replace it with another
    silly gimmick nobody asked for.

    They might. Happy they are trying it... seeing if it works. I do agree there are so many organization systems there is a risk of things being overwhelming.

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it better
    than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window groups coming and
    going instead of multiple desktops with things always being the same on them.
    In my mind makes it so the documents are moving and doing the work and not me
    having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks.

    It is an organizational tool. I value it.

    It's
    those coming from Windoze world who get confused because Mac apps don't (usually) take over the entire screen and hide all the other apps from
    view.

    I use a lot of apps and a lot of windows. And a lot of tabs.

    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together (which >> admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real desktops I
    think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that is being gimmicky.
    I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed by the choices... who >> knew macOS would get to the point of having overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which
    date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    And Stage Manager adds some new ones -- or at least implementation
    features I do not like. My current pet peeve: if I am watching a video
    and I get a call, the video goes away into an "App Stack" or whatever
    they are called (should be window stack, but that is a different nit)
    and the phone pops up. Not easy to turn off the damn video before I get
    the call. Not even the pause button on the keyboard does it. That is
    stupid.


    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ant@21:1/5 to Snit on Fri Oct 28 18:28:38 2022
    Snit <[email protected]> wrote:

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it better
    than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window groups coming and
    going instead of multiple desktops with things always being the same on them.
    In my mind makes it so the documents are moving and doing the work and not me
    having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    Ditto. I used it. I didn't have to use a third party virtual desktop
    manager like the early Mac OS X days (v10.2.x).


    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which
    date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    Ditto.
    --
    "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." --1 Peter 1:24-25
    Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
    /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
    / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
    | |o o| |
    \ _ /
    ( )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Ant on Fri Oct 28 22:26:58 2022
    On 2022-10-28, Ant <[email protected]> wrote:
    Snit <[email protected]> wrote:

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I
    like it better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with
    window groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with
    things always being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the
    documents are moving and doing the work and not me having to move
    from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    Many people do. I typically have 3 desktops: one main desktop, another
    for one project I'm working on, and another for a different project I'm
    working on. It's no gimmick. As anyone who actually uses the feature
    will tell you, it's extremely useful and a huge productivity booster.

    Ragging on features just because you have no need for them is a pretty
    lame behavior if you ask me. To each his own. Use the best tool for
    whatever job you have in front of you.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Sat Oct 29 01:12:31 2022
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 3:26:58 PM MST, "Jolly Roger" wrote <[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-28, Ant <[email protected]> wrote:
    Snit <[email protected]> wrote:

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I
    like it better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with
    window groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with
    things always being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the
    documents are moving and doing the work and not me having to move
    from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    Many people do. I typically have 3 desktops: one main desktop, another
    for one project I'm working on, and another for a different project I'm
    working on. It's no gimmick. As anyone who actually uses the feature
    will tell you, it's extremely useful and a huge productivity booster.

    Agreed. And for those who do not use it, for them it hurts nothing. Or they
    use it in full screen and do not even think of it.

    Ragging on features just because you have no need for them is a pretty
    lame behavior if you ask me. To each his own. Use the best tool for
    whatever job you have in front of you.

    I can see where there can be concern of so many options that new / non-techie users will get overwhelmed. But as a population we are getting more and more used to computers (go figure).

    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Snit on Sat Oct 29 14:12:36 2022
    On 2022-10-28 07:48:41 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 10:35:56 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjfpns$7sl$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-28 03:57:30 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item >>>>>>> on my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my >>>>>>> Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it >>>>>>> in again. That worked. I haven't explored much further.

    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will >>>>> like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not the >>> same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide
    the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage Manager is
    more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different desktop), and it has some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app. If you
    right/Control-click on a Dock icon, you'll get a list of windows.

    Stage Manager simply takes an open app and bundles all it's windows
    into a pile on the side of the screen (wasting display space) that you single-click to bring them all back again.

    It's just a different way of doing what you can already do, adding
    extra clutter to the display and more complexity (and mroe bugs) to the
    OS.




    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick.

    If you do not find it useful then do not use it. I might end up just turning it off. I am finding as I open new apps I am finding it a but annoying. We shall see.

    Even if I wanted to use it, I can't. Apple dropped my Mac Mini from the
    list of compatible computers for the new MacOS version.



    Everyone will be jumping up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about
    five minutes, and then it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people
    actually use it. Eventually Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to
    replace it with another silly gimmick nobody asked for.

    They might. Happy they are trying it... seeing if it works. I do agree there are so many organization systems there is a risk of things being overwhelming.

    There is a ton of niche stuff in MacOS that barely anyone even knows
    exists, let alone actually uses.

    The Mac used to be "the computer for the rest of us", but is now "the
    comuter for a pile of little niche groups". This sort of gimmickry
    should be left as an optional extra and/or for third-party developers.
    It's the existing bugs that Apple needs to fix - not keep adding more
    and more gimmicks.



    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it
    better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window
    groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always
    being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving
    and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks.

    It is an organizational tool. I value it.

    Again, most users don't even know it exists, until they hit the wrong
    keyboard button or trackpad gesture ... then it's "What the hell
    happened?" and a call to people like me to 'fix' it.



    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together
    (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real
    desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that
    is being gimmicky. I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed
    by the choices... who knew macOS would get to the point of having
    overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which
    date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated
    gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    One of the most annoying seen quite often is with USB drives (maybe
    only Windoze format ones) showing the remaining empty space. I've had
    2GB USB keyring drives which already have files on them and the Finder
    saying there is 6GB free space!!

    The Finder windows can also be slow to update. I've saved files to a
    folder, then looking it that folder the file isn't there (nor in a
    Terminal directory listing), until a few seconds later when it
    magically appears.

    There are numerous such "little" annoyances and inconsistencies that
    have never been fixed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Your Name on Sat Oct 29 01:35:37 2022
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 6:12:36 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjhum4$11ca$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-28 07:48:41 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 10:35:56 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfpns$7sl$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-28 03:57:30 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item >>>>>>>> on my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my
    Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it >>>>>>>> in again. That worked. I haven't explored much further.

    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will >>>>>> like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin'
    Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not the >>>> same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide
    the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage Manager is
    more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps move on / off the >> stage instead of the user having to go to a different desktop), and it has >> some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app.

    Stage Manager does it by window, not by app. This is very different.

    If you
    right/Control-click on a Dock icon, you'll get a list of windows.

    Stage Manager simply takes an open app and bundles all it's windows
    into a pile on the side of the screen (wasting display space) that you single-click to bring them all back again.

    You can do it by app or make your own organization. And you can have it so the icons hide (that is how I use it).

    It's just a different way of doing what you can already do, adding
    extra clutter to the display and more complexity (and mroe bugs) to the
    OS

    Incorrect.

    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick.

    If you do not find it useful then do not use it. I might end up just turning >> it off. I am finding as I open new apps I am finding it a but annoying. We >> shall see.

    Even if I wanted to use it, I can't. Apple dropped my Mac Mini from the
    list of compatible computers for the new MacOS version.

    You have not even used the feature you are saying is of no value?

    Everyone will be jumping up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about
    five minutes, and then it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people
    actually use it. Eventually Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to
    replace it with another silly gimmick nobody asked for.

    They might. Happy they are trying it... seeing if it works. I do agree there >> are so many organization systems there is a risk of things being overwhelming.

    There is a ton of niche stuff in MacOS that barely anyone even knows
    exists, let alone actually uses.

    Few use everything, but everything is used.

    The Mac used to be "the computer for the rest of us", but is now "the
    comuter for a pile of little niche groups".

    How so? I do worry that too many options might be overwhelming for some users... but Spaces and Stage Manager are not doing anything by default. Well, Spaces works with full screen.

    This sort of gimmickry
    should be left as an optional extra and/or for third-party developers.

    Stage Manager is an optional extra. But is true if it was third party I would likely not use it.

    It is made, though, because it is the way iPads work. Many move between the
    two and it will be familiar.

    It's the existing bugs that Apple needs to fix - not keep adding more
    and more gimmicks.

    How do you figure? And what bugs do you mean? Please share some.

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it >>>> better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window
    groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always >>>> being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving >>>> and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop.

    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks.

    It is an organizational tool. I value it.

    Again, most users don't even know it exists, until they hit the wrong keyboard button or trackpad gesture ... then it's "What the hell
    happened?" and a call to people like me to 'fix' it.

    I work with new / non-techie users as well. I am happy Apple serves them AND serves me.

    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together
    (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real
    desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that >>>> is being gimmicky. I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed >>>> by the choices... who knew macOS would get to the point of having
    overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which >>>>> date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated
    gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    One of the most annoying seen quite often is with USB drives (maybe
    only Windoze format ones) showing the remaining empty space. I've had
    2GB USB keyring drives which already have files on them and the Finder
    saying there is 6GB free space!!

    Would love to hear how to replicate this.

    The Finder windows can also be slow to update. I've saved files to a
    folder, then looking it that folder the file isn't there (nor in a
    Terminal directory listing), until a few seconds later when it
    magically appears.

    I have seen that, though usually a second or so.

    There are numerous such "little" annoyances and inconsistencies that
    have never been fixed.

    Agreed -- but of note you cannot think of many off hand.

    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Fri Oct 28 21:30:07 2022
    In article <tjhum4$11ca$[email protected]>, Your Name
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    One of the most annoying seen quite often is with USB drives (maybe
    only Windoze format ones) showing the remaining empty space. I've had
    2GB USB keyring drives which already have files on them and the Finder
    saying there is 6GB free space!!

    bullshit.

    it's not possible to have 6gb free or used on a device with only a 2gb capacity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Your Name on Sat Oct 29 06:14:06 2022
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 10:48:28 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjierc$1hgp$[email protected]>:
    ...

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin' >>>>>>> Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not >>>>>> the same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide >>>>> the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage
    Manager is more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps
    move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different >>>> desktop), and it has some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app.

    Stage Manager does it by window, not by app. This is very different.

    Each "pile" is a different app ...

    You have not used it. Really... it can be windows from different apps.

    "For an app with multiple open windows, Stage Manager
    gathers all the windows in a single pile."

    Yes, and you can move them around.

    although you can combine windows from different apps in one "Space".

    It is not Spaces.

    When you click on a "pile" it simply displays the top-most window (or
    windows is using it as a "space"). Clicking on the same pile will cycle through the windows. You get the same, if not better, functionality by
    simply right/control-clicking on the Dock icon and choosing the window
    you actually want.

    You have not used it and clearly do not know how it works. Not sure what to do for you with that one.

    It does have its quirks. I am not in love with it. But I am at least learning how to use it before bashing it.




    If you right/Control-click on a Dock icon, you'll get a list of windows. >>>
    Stage Manager simply takes an open app and bundles all it's windows
    into a pile on the side of the screen (wasting display space) that you
    single-click to bring them all back again.

    You can do it by app or make your own organization. And you can have it so the
    icons hide (that is how I use it).

    It's just a different way of doing what you can already do, adding
    extra clutter to the display and more complexity (and mroe bugs) to the
    OS

    Incorrect.

    Nope. There are already other ways to do the same thing.

    Given that you do not understand what it does, how would you know?

    Spaces is the closest.

    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick.

    If you do not find it useful then do not use it. I might end up just
    turning it off. I am finding as I open new apps I am finding it a but
    annoying. We shall see.

    Even if I wanted to use it, I can't. Apple dropped my Mac Mini from the
    list of compatible computers for the new MacOS version.

    You have not even used the feature you are saying is of no value?

    A few niche users will claim it's the best thing since sliced bread,
    but the reality is that it's just yet another gimmick that like all the others will be not be noticed, let alone used, by the vast majority of
    users. It's too fiddly, too messy, too complicated, and ultimately
    pointless.

    I am not even saying I like it... but you are speaking from a place of ignorance about it.

    Everyone will be jumping up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about >>>>> five minutes, and then it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people
    actually use it. Eventually Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to >>>>> replace it with another silly gimmick nobody asked for.

    They might. Happy they are trying it... seeing if it works. I do agree >>>> there are so many organization systems there is a risk of things being >>>> overwhelming.

    There is a ton of niche stuff in MacOS that barely anyone even knows
    exists, let alone actually uses.

    Few use everything, but everything is used.

    The Mac used to be "the computer for the rest of us", but is now "the
    comuter for a pile of little niche groups".

    How so? I do worry that too many options might be overwhelming for some
    users... but Spaces and Stage Manager are not doing anything by default. Well,
    Spaces works with full screen.

    This sort of gimmickry should be left as an optional extra and/or for
    third-party developers.

    Stage Manager is an optional extra. But is true if it was third party I would
    likely not use it.

    It is made, though, because it is the way iPads work. Many move between the >> two and it will be familiar.

    Yet another reason why the iPad is not actually useful as a computer replacement for doing real work.

    Depends on what "real work" you are doing!

    It's the existing bugs that Apple needs to fix - not keep adding more
    and more gimmicks.

    How do you figure? And what bugs do you mean? Please share some.

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it >>>>>> better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window >>>>>> groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always >>>>>> being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving >>>>>> and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop. >>>>>
    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks.

    It is an organizational tool. I value it.

    Again, most users don't even know it exists, until they hit the wrong
    keyboard button or trackpad gesture ... then it's "What the hell
    happened?" and a call to people like me to 'fix' it.

    I work with new / non-techie users as well. I am happy Apple serves them AND >> serves me.

    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together >>>>>> (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real >>>>>> desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that >>>>>> is being gimmicky. I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed >>>>>> by the choices... who knew macOS would get to the point of having
    overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which >>>>>>> date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated >>>>> gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    One of the most annoying seen quite often is with USB drives (maybe
    only Windoze format ones) showing the remaining empty space. I've had
    2GB USB keyring drives which already have files on them and the Finder
    saying there is 6GB free space!!

    Would love to hear how to replicate this.

    The Finder windows can also be slow to update. I've saved files to a
    folder, then looking it that folder the file isn't there (nor in a
    Terminal directory listing), until a few seconds later when it
    magically appears.

    I have seen that, though usually a second or so.

    There are numerous such "little" annoyances and inconsistencies that
    have never been fixed.

    Agreed -- but of note you cannot think of many off hand.

    Geez, I'm not going to bother wasting my time trying to list them all. :-\

    The fact you find it challenging to list many weakens your point.

    I can point to Pages and Numbers and that suite with a bug that I think is
    just idiotic.

    Hmmm, there was JUST a Pages update... testing...

    Damned bug is STILL there. The sidebar works differently on different tabs, sometimes going all the way up the window, other times not.

    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Snit on Sat Oct 29 18:48:28 2022
    On 2022-10-29 01:35:37 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 6:12:36 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjhum4$11ca$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-28 07:48:41 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 10:35:56 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfpns$7sl$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-28 03:57:30 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 8:22:43 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjfhu2$59p$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27 21:14:18 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 27, 2022 at 2:08:58 PM MST, "johnson" wrote
    <KrC6L.1168811$[email protected]>:
    On 2022-10-27, Leonard Blaisdell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> I noticed that Ventura was available in the "About This Mac" menu item
    on my M1 Mini, so I downloaded it. The only glitch, so far, was that my
    Time Machine disk wasn't recognized. So I unplugged it and plugged it >>>>>>>>> in again. That worked. I haven't explored much further.

    Love it so far. Haven't tried Stage Manager yet.

    Stage manager takes getting used to. I have it on just to see if I will >>>>>>> like it... so far not so much.

    This is good info on its use and settings:

    https://youtu.be/dbndfDB6EEA

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin' >>>>>> Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not >>>>> the same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide
    the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage
    Manager is more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps
    move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different
    desktop), and it has some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app.

    Stage Manager does it by window, not by app. This is very different.

    Each "pile" is a different app ...

    "For an app with multiple open windows, Stage Manager
    gathers all the windows in a single pile."

    although you can combine windows from different apps in one "Space".

    When you click on a "pile" it simply displays the top-most window (or
    windows is using it as a "space"). Clicking on the same pile will cycle
    through the windows. You get the same, if not better, functionality by
    simply right/control-clicking on the Dock icon and choosing the window
    you actually want.



    If you right/Control-click on a Dock icon, you'll get a list of windows.

    Stage Manager simply takes an open app and bundles all it's windows
    into a pile on the side of the screen (wasting display space) that you
    single-click to bring them all back again.

    You can do it by app or make your own organization. And you can have it so the
    icons hide (that is how I use it).

    It's just a different way of doing what you can already do, adding
    extra clutter to the display and more complexity (and mroe bugs) to the
    OS

    Incorrect.

    Nope. There are already other ways to do the same thing.



    Stage Manager is just another useless gimmick.

    If you do not find it useful then do not use it. I might end up just
    turning it off. I am finding as I open new apps I am finding it a but
    annoying. We shall see.

    Even if I wanted to use it, I can't. Apple dropped my Mac Mini from the
    list of compatible computers for the new MacOS version.

    You have not even used the feature you are saying is of no value?

    A few niche users will claim it's the best thing since sliced bread,
    but the reality is that it's just yet another gimmick that like all the
    others will be not be noticed, let alone used, by the vast majority of
    users. It's too fiddly, too messy, too complicated, and ultimately
    pointless.




    Everyone will be jumping up and down with glee (or annoyance) for about >>>> five minutes, and then it'll fade away as fewer and fewer people
    actually use it. Eventually Apple will simply drop it entirely, only to >>>> replace it with another silly gimmick nobody asked for.

    They might. Happy they are trying it... seeing if it works. I do agree
    there are so many organization systems there is a risk of things being
    overwhelming.

    There is a ton of niche stuff in MacOS that barely anyone even knows
    exists, let alone actually uses.

    Few use everything, but everything is used.

    The Mac used to be "the computer for the rest of us", but is now "the
    comuter for a pile of little niche groups".

    How so? I do worry that too many options might be overwhelming for some users... but Spaces and Stage Manager are not doing anything by default. Well,
    Spaces works with full screen.

    This sort of gimmickry should be left as an optional extra and/or for
    third-party developers.

    Stage Manager is an optional extra. But is true if it was third party I would likely not use it.

    It is made, though, because it is the way iPads work. Many move between the two and it will be familiar.

    Yet another reason why the iPad is not actually useful as a computer replacement for doing real work.



    It's the existing bugs that Apple needs to fix - not keep adding more
    and more gimmicks.

    How do you figure? And what bugs do you mean? Please share some.

    I have been using it and while I am not in love, in some ways I like it >>>>> better than Spaces. I like the metaphor of one desktop with window
    groups coming and going instead of multiple desktops with things always >>>>> being the same on them. In my mind makes it so the documents are moving >>>>> and doing the work and not me having to move from desktop to desktop. >>>>
    Spaces are another gimmick too.

    I use it often, esp. with full screen apps. I find it very useful.

    People who know how to use a Mac don't care abour such gimmicks.

    It is an organizational tool. I value it.

    Again, most users don't even know it exists, until they hit the wrong
    keyboard button or trackpad gesture ... then it's "What the hell
    happened?" and a call to people like me to 'fix' it.

    I work with new / non-techie users as well. I am happy Apple serves them AND serves me.

    Really not a big deal either way, but you can also use them together >>>>> (which admittedly might be a bit much).

    Using Spaces, hiding, Stage Manager, minimizing, and multiple real
    desktops I think would be too much -- and I can see where you see that >>>>> is being gimmicky. I can also see where some users would be overwhelmed >>>>> by the choices... who knew macOS would get to the point of having
    overwhelming choices?

    ... at the expense of not fixing all the existing bugs, some of which >>>>>> date way back to the first version of MacOS X. :-(

    What ones are you thinking of?

    There are loads of them, and each new version of the OS and associated >>>> gimmicks simply add more.

    Would love to hear some of your pet peeves.

    One of the most annoying seen quite often is with USB drives (maybe
    only Windoze format ones) showing the remaining empty space. I've had
    2GB USB keyring drives which already have files on them and the Finder
    saying there is 6GB free space!!

    Would love to hear how to replicate this.

    The Finder windows can also be slow to update. I've saved files to a
    folder, then looking it that folder the file isn't there (nor in a
    Terminal directory listing), until a few seconds later when it
    magically appears.

    I have seen that, though usually a second or so.

    There are numerous such "little" annoyances and inconsistencies that
    have never been fixed.

    Agreed -- but of note you cannot think of many off hand.

    Geez, I'm not going to bother wasting my time trying to list them all. :-\

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Snit on Sat Oct 29 19:45:42 2022
    On 2022-10-29 06:14:06 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 10:48:28 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjierc$1hgp$[email protected]>:
    ...

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin' >>>>>>>> Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not >>>>>>> the same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide >>>>>> the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage
    Manager is more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps >>>>> move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different >>>>> desktop), and it has some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app.

    Stage Manager does it by window, not by app. This is very different.

    Each "pile" is a different app ...

    You have not used it. Really... it can be windows from different apps.

    Yes, as I said below. But by default it does individual apps which you
    then have to manually combine to make "spaces".



    "For an app with multiple open windows, Stage Manager
    gathers all the windows in a single pile."

    Yes, and you can move them around.

    although you can combine windows from different apps in one "Space".

    It is not Spaces.

    It's not the old "Spaces", it's a new option within Stage Manager. That
    may not be the official term, but it is the term some reviewers are
    using.




    When you click on a "pile" it simply displays the top-most window (or
    windows is using it as a "space"). Clicking on the same pile will cycle
    through the windows. You get the same, if not better, functionality by
    simply right/control-clicking on the Dock icon and choosing the window
    you actually want.

    You have not used it and clearly do not know how it works. Not sure what to do
    for you with that one.

    It does have its quirks. I am not in love with it. But I am at least learning how to use it before bashing it.
    <snip>

    It's a gimmick, plain and simple. It will *NOT* be even known about,
    let alone used, by the vast majority of users.

    You continue arguing with yourself. I'm done.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snit@21:1/5 to Your Name on Sat Oct 29 06:54:29 2022
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 11:45:42 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote <tjii6l$je6$[email protected]>:

    On 2022-10-29 06:14:06 +0000, Snit said:
    On Oct 28, 2022 at 10:48:28 PM MST, "Your Name" wrote
    <tjierc$1hgp$[email protected]>:
    ...

    Looks like just yet another useless gimmick (just use the friggin' >>>>>>>>> Dock, that's what it's there for!)

    It works diffetenrtly than the dock. It is closer to Spaces but is not >>>>>>>> the same as that, either.

    Hold down the Option key as you click on a Dock icon and it will hide >>>>>>> the current app as it switches to the new one.

    Yes... but it does not group windows like Stage Manager does. Stage >>>>>> Manager is more like Spaces, but with a different metaphor (the apps >>>>>> move on / off the stage instead of the user having to go to a different >>>>>> desktop), and it has some different features.

    The Dock does "group windows" within the app.

    Stage Manager does it by window, not by app. This is very different.

    Each "pile" is a different app ...

    You have not used it. Really... it can be windows from different apps.

    Yes, as I said below. But by default it does individual apps which you
    then have to manually combine to make "spaces".

    Spaces is not the right word (that is for Spaces) but OK.

    "For an app with multiple open windows, Stage Manager
    gathers all the windows in a single pile."

    Yes, and you can move them around.

    although you can combine windows from different apps in one "Space".

    It is not Spaces.

    It's not the old "Spaces", it's a new option within Stage Manager.

    Worded oddly. There is no old and new Spaces -- there is Spaces. And Stage Manager is new. They can each be used.

    That
    may not be the official term, but it is the term some reviewers are
    using.

    Calling Stage Manager Spaces is sorta weird given how that term is used for Spaces.

    When you click on a "pile" it simply displays the top-most window (or
    windows is using it as a "space"). Clicking on the same pile will cycle
    through the windows. You get the same, if not better, functionality by
    simply right/control-clicking on the Dock icon and choosing the window
    you actually want.

    You have not used it and clearly do not know how it works. Not sure what to do
    for you with that one.

    It does have its quirks. I am not in love with it. But I am at least learning
    how to use it before bashing it.
    <snip>

    It's a gimmick, plain and simple.

    You keep saying this. Not sure what value you think you are adding. You have not even used it.

    I am not even saying I love it and will continue to use it... but at least I
    am playing with it.

    It will *NOT* be even known about,
    let alone used, by the vast majority of users.

    This implies you think features are gimmicks UNLESS they are used "by the vast majority of users". Is that your view?

    I personally like to be able to use features that serve me well even if most
    do not use them.

    You continue arguing with yourself. I'm done.

    LOL! You never really had much of a point to start with other than you do not like a feature you have not used and know little about, and thus you think it is a gimmick and a bad idea.

    --
    Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

    They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From johnson@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Sat Oct 29 10:13:13 2022
    On 2022-10-28, Jolly Roger <[email protected]> wrote:
    [...]
    Ragging on features just because you have no need for them is a pretty
    lame behavior if you ask me. To each his own. Use the best tool for
    whatever job you have in front of you.

    hear! hear!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to johnson on Sun Oct 30 10:32:06 2022
    On 2022-10-29 10:13:13 +0000, johnson said:
    On 2022-10-28, Jolly Roger <[email protected]> wrote:
    [...]
    Ragging on features just because you have no need for them is a pretty
    lame behavior if you ask me. To each his own. Use the best tool for
    whatever job you have in front of you.

    hear! hear!

    Are such "features" a necessary part of the OS? No, of course not, not
    even remotely. They're niche-group gimmicks which shouldn't be
    cluttering up the standard install of the OS and wasting the limted
    storage space Apple deigns to put in their devices. These sorts of
    personal preference OS-tweaks should be left as optional extras
    (whether that's by Apple themselves or third-party developers).

    But they of course can't just actually fix the existing bugs (some over
    10 years old!) because that wouldn't give the marketing department any
    fancy new gimmick to crow about.

    If you personally want ot use it, then good luck to you, but the
    reality is that, just like all the previous gimmick "features", very
    few Mac users will ever even know it exists, let alone use it or want
    it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)