• Re: OT: Show just one...

    From -hh@21:1/5 to Thomas E. on Sat Mar 19 08:00:06 2022
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.

    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW
    doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced
    a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas E.@21:1/5 to Alan on Sat Mar 19 07:19:45 2022
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our
    tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel
    CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit where credit is due.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Thomas E. on Sat Mar 19 10:30:58 2022
    On 2022-03-19 7:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's
    own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech
    media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to
    our tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than
    some Intel CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>


    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge
    manufacturing and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this
    far along. Give credit where credit is due.

    Nonsense.

    TSMC's manufacturing is available to anyone who wants to hire them...

    ...and yet it is Apple's chips that lead...

    ...and not by a small margin.

    Second and more importantly, this thread is solely about who DESIGNS
    Apple's chips...

    ...and it is Apple who designs them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas E.@21:1/5 to Alan on Tue Mar 22 17:33:28 2022
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    On 2022-03-19 7:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's
    own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech
    media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to
    our tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than
    some Intel CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>


    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this
    far along. Give credit where credit is due.
    Nonsense.

    TSMC's manufacturing is available to anyone who wants to hire them...

    ...and yet it is Apple's chips that lead...

    ...and not by a small margin.

    Second and more importantly, this thread is solely about who DESIGNS
    Apple's chips...

    ...and it is Apple who designs them.

    All true, but absent TSMC tech the chips Apple designs would not be as fast as they are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas E.@21:1/5 to -hh on Tue Mar 22 17:31:50 2022
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 11:00:07 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.
    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then
    by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced
    a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    Are you SO stupid to think that BMW makes 100% of its cars?

    https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/060115/who-are-bmws-main-suppliers.asp

    The following is a list of SOME of BMW's automotive parts suppliers (either current or previous suppliers), along with the component parts that they've supplied:

    Brembo: This company provides brake calipers
    Dräxlmaier Group: Supplier of interior panels
    Peiker Acustic GmbH: Provider of high-speed mobile Internet for cars. In 2012, BMW became the first automaker to introduce this feature.
    Thyssenkrupp: Supplies steering columns, shock absorbers, and suspension parts BorgWarner: Provider of drivetrain components, such as clutches and automatic transmissions
    Elringklinger: Maker of gaskets and exhaust system components
    Mahle: Supplies piston and cylinder components, valve train systems, and air and liquid management systems
    Bridgestone: Supplier of tires
    GKN Driveline: Provides axle assemblies
    Johnson Electric: Supplies cooling and heating fan modules
    Gestamp: Providers of front and rear hood assemblies
    Apag Elektronik AG: Interior lighting components
    Delphi: Battery and electric vehicle charger components
    Hirschvogel: Wheels
    Magna: Body casting stampings
    Harman/Kardon: Interior music and audio systems

    Does BMW design audio systems, tire, mobile internet, lighting?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Thomas E. on Tue Mar 22 17:49:34 2022
    On 2022-03-22 5:31 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 11:00:07 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own >>>> CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our
    tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel >>>> CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.
    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW
    doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then
    by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced >> a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    Are you SO stupid to think that BMW makes 100% of its cars?

    No, you twit.

    He is NOT.

    YOU are so stupid that you think that because someone makes a component
    for Apple that the component isn't really Apple's.

    An engine made to BMW's design by some other manufacturer is still a BMW engine.


    https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/060115/who-are-bmws-main-suppliers.asp

    The following is a list of SOME of BMW's automotive parts suppliers (either current or previous suppliers), along with the component parts that they've supplied:

    Brembo: This company provides brake calipers
    Dräxlmaier Group: Supplier of interior panels
    Peiker Acustic GmbH: Provider of high-speed mobile Internet for cars. In 2012, BMW became the first automaker to introduce this feature.
    Thyssenkrupp: Supplies steering columns, shock absorbers, and suspension parts
    BorgWarner: Provider of drivetrain components, such as clutches and automatic transmissions
    Elringklinger: Maker of gaskets and exhaust system components
    Mahle: Supplies piston and cylinder components, valve train systems, and air and liquid management systems
    Bridgestone: Supplier of tires
    GKN Driveline: Provides axle assemblies
    Johnson Electric: Supplies cooling and heating fan modules
    Gestamp: Providers of front and rear hood assemblies
    Apag Elektronik AG: Interior lighting components
    Delphi: Battery and electric vehicle charger components
    Hirschvogel: Wheels
    Magna: Body casting stampings
    Harman/Kardon: Interior music and audio systems

    Does BMW design audio systems, tire, mobile internet, lighting?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Thomas E. on Tue Mar 22 17:50:27 2022
    On 2022-03-22 5:33 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    On 2022-03-19 7:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's
    own CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech
    media...

    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to
    our tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than
    some Intel CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>


    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge
    manufacturing and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this
    far along. Give credit where credit is due.
    Nonsense.

    TSMC's manufacturing is available to anyone who wants to hire them...

    ...and yet it is Apple's chips that lead...

    ...and not by a small margin.

    Second and more importantly, this thread is solely about who DESIGNS
    Apple's chips...

    ...and it is Apple who designs them.

    All true, but absent TSMC tech the chips Apple designs would not be as fast as they are.

    Yet everyone who wants to have it, can access that same "tech"...

    ...and none of them are coming close to what Apple is doing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From -hh@21:1/5 to Alan on Wed Mar 23 03:29:25 2022
    On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:49:37 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    On 2022-03-22 5:31 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 11:00:07 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own >>>> CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media... >>>>
    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our >>>> tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel >>>> CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.

    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW
    doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then
    by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced
    a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    Are you SO stupid to think that BMW makes 100% of its cars?

    No, you twit.
    He is NOT.

    Correct: its not about who happens to fab a component, but who owns the
    IP of that design.

    YOU are so stupid that you think that because someone makes a component
    for Apple that the component isn't really Apple's.

    About the best that Tommy can note is that a component was made with a
    unique manufacturing process that only that vendor (or a few vendors) have
    the technical know-how or capacity to do. IIRC, this is where TSMC is at, in having a fab masking process that is a nm or so smaller than the rest of the industry ... but this doesn't really mean that its a TSMC design from an IP standpoint: it means that that chip mask is currently only capable of being tabbed by TSMC: minimum dimensions on masks have been dropping for
    decades, so its only a matter of time until Intel (etc) have the identical manufacturing capability.

    An engine made to BMW's design by some other manufacturer is still a BMW engine.

    Which is why if one needs a new BMW engine, one can't just go find a
    dozen different companies selling the identical motor. Even an older one.

    -hh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas E.@21:1/5 to -hh on Wed Mar 23 07:19:34 2022
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:29:26 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:49:37 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    On 2022-03-22 5:31 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 11:00:07 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own
    CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media... >>>>
    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our >>>> tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel
    CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.

    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW
    doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then
    by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced
    a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    Are you SO stupid to think that BMW makes 100% of its cars?

    No, you twit.
    He is NOT.
    Correct: its not about who happens to fab a component, but who owns the
    IP of that design.
    YOU are so stupid that you think that because someone makes a component for Apple that the component isn't really Apple's.
    About the best that Tommy can note is that a component was made with a unique manufacturing process that only that vendor (or a few vendors) have the technical know-how or capacity to do. IIRC, this is where TSMC is at, in having a fab masking process that is a nm or so smaller than the rest of the industry ... but this doesn't really mean that its a TSMC design from an IP standpoint: it means that that chip mask is currently only capable of being tabbed by TSMC: minimum dimensions on masks have been dropping for
    decades, so its only a matter of time until Intel (etc) have the identical manufacturing capability.
    An engine made to BMW's design by some other manufacturer is still a BMW engine.
    Which is why if one needs a new BMW engine, one can't just go find a
    dozen different companies selling the identical motor. Even an older one.

    -hh

    Do you really believe that car makers own all IP for the cars they make? LOL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan@21:1/5 to Thomas E. on Wed Mar 23 09:07:52 2022
    On 2022-03-23 7:19 a.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:29:26 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:49:37 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    On 2022-03-22 5:31 p.m., Thomas E. wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 11:00:07 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
    On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 10:19:46 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
    On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:20:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
    ...one single reference that claims that Apple isn't designing it's own >>>>>>> CPUs...

    ..and how they managed to dupe everyone in the entire tech media... >>>>>>>
    'Macs will transition to Apple-designed chips that, according to our >>>>>>> tests, are already better-performing (in some respects) than some Intel >>>>>>> CPUs in today's Macs.'

    <https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-might-apples-arm-silicon-perform-in-future-macs-we-ran-some-benchmarks>

    It's Apple's design on TSMC's silicon. Absent TSMC leading edge manufacturing
    and silicon design innovations Apple would not be this far along. Give credit
    where credit is due.

    The problem with that logic is that it permeates everywhere: if BMW
    doesn’t literally pump it’s own crude oil & refine it to lubricants, then
    by this logic, BMW isn’t a manufacturer of cars, because they outsourced
    a portion (motor oil) to another company.

    -hh

    Are you SO stupid to think that BMW makes 100% of its cars?

    No, you twit.
    He is NOT.
    Correct: its not about who happens to fab a component, but who owns the
    IP of that design.
    YOU are so stupid that you think that because someone makes a component
    for Apple that the component isn't really Apple's.
    About the best that Tommy can note is that a component was made with a
    unique manufacturing process that only that vendor (or a few vendors) have >> the technical know-how or capacity to do. IIRC, this is where TSMC is at, in >> having a fab masking process that is a nm or so smaller than the rest of the >> industry ... but this doesn't really mean that its a TSMC design from an IP >> standpoint: it means that that chip mask is currently only capable of being >> tabbed by TSMC: minimum dimensions on masks have been dropping for
    decades, so its only a matter of time until Intel (etc) have the identical >> manufacturing capability.
    An engine made to BMW's design by some other manufacturer is still a BMW >>> engine.
    Which is why if one needs a new BMW engine, one can't just go find a
    dozen different companies selling the identical motor. Even an older one.

    -hh

    Do you really believe that car makers own all IP for the cars they make? LOL

    Why can't you ever play it straight, Liarboy.

    That isn't what was said and you know it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)