Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4804-repeat

I've done my best to scour the manual, but I've discovered before that
the feature I wanted did in fact exist somewhere buried in the
documentation and/or examples, but not under the name by which I was
expecting it!

I could probably attempt to draw one using the drawing functions, but
then of course you would have the problem of getting the bar count and
playback to reflect the symbol....


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Flee at once, all is discovered.

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In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

The Opus fonts seem to lack the one-bar repeat symbol, which condemns you
to copy the notes over and over again. There are, however, some note-group repeat symbols, so they might offer you some sort of solution.

Note: I gave up on PMS a long time ago - although being very powerful, it's
way too complicated for me!

Best wishes,
Paul

--
https://riscos.sprie.nl

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <[email protected]>, Paul Sprangers <[email protected]>
wrote:

In article <[email protected]>, Harriet Bazley
<[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

The Opus fonts seem to lack the one-bar repeat symbol, which condemns
you to copy the notes over and over again. There are, however, some note-group repeat symbols, so they might offer you some sort of
solution.

Note: I gave up on PMS a long time ago - although being very powerful,
it's way too complicated for me!

Sibelius has Opus fonts. Are they the same? In the guide the one I think
you want is called "Repeat last bar." (The thick oblique with dots
either side). Could it be the sme in PMS?

--
Chris

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Bonjour Harriet
In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4804-repeat

I've done my best to scour the manual, but I've discovered before that
the feature I wanted did in fact exist somewhere buried in the
documentation and/or examples, but not under the name by which I was expecting it!

I didn't find it in the !PMS examples.
I found an item Repeated bars page 136/148 in the PVM 4.12 manual, but I haven't been able to put it into practice.
The repeat character exists in PMS fonts
Note: Rhapsody4 uses the same fonts with permission from Richard Hallas,
and the bar repeat is displayed correctly.

I could probably attempt to draw one using the drawing functions, but
then of course you would have the problem of getting the bar count and playback to reflect the symbol....

It's a shame that the PMS output functionality that was planned is not implemented in Rhapsody4.

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is maintained.


--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Chris Newman wrote:

In article <[email protected]>, Paul Sprangers <[email protected]>
wrote:

In article <[email protected]>, Harriet Bazley
<[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

The Opus fonts seem to lack the one-bar repeat symbol, which condemns
you to copy the notes over and over again.

Copy/pasting the notes is easy enough - it's a readability issue,
especially since what I'm trying to do is reset an badly-written
orchestral part to improve playability. It's easier for the player to
see 'repeat this pattern of eight semiquavers three bars running' than
to see all eight of them written out in four identical bars... or at
least, it's easier to keep track visually of where you are on the page.

But it's something that you basically never see outside individual parts
in orchestral music. It's also an old-fashioned space- and time-saving
measure for the hand copyists, who didn't have a copy/paste option and
could fit more on a page more quickly and with fewer errors by just
writing 'repeat the last bar X number of times', rather than copying out
the exact same sequence of notes repeatedly until their eyes crossed!
But the result is that because the page I'm transcribing *does* contain repeated bar symbols, writing all those bars out in full makes the
passage in question take up considerably more space, which then means
that the music ends up more squished on the page.

Fortunately it's not *too* bad in that respect because I'm removing all
the unnecessary cues that are spattered all over the part below the
stave (and/or crossing over the player's own part!), which in themselves
were occupying a lot of extra room. So the spacing evens out overall.
It's just a matter of user-friendliness - plus my desire to match the
original layout/typeface reasonably seamlessly, without the result
looking too obviously amateurish or home-brewed.

There are, however, some note-group repeat symbols, so they might
offer you some sort of solution.

Note: I gave up on PMS a long time ago - although being very powerful,
it's way too complicated for me!

I would normally do this sort of thing in Rhapsody, but
Rhapsody-generated music does tend to have a very distinctive 'look' to
it, and the software doesn't cope all that well with recreating random
pages from the middle of scores as opposed to formatting a complete
piece. I was hoping PMD would give me greater formatting control...
and it did, down to enabling me to define a macro to move the left-hand
end of all my semiquaver group slurs down by 4 points!

It also enabled me to write a macro to generate each eight-note group in identical format with all the extra tweaks replicated (beam break,
accent on first of group, custom slur) in every bar by simply feeding in
the four note values which are all that actually vary between each
group, as opposed to massive amounts of cutting, pasting and then
editing the note values. Thus pleasing my programmer's heart.

(Not quite so clever when it dawned on me that I would have to specify
the accidentals separately, because otherwise they would show up for
*every* macro-inserted occurrence of that note instead of, as is musical convention, only for the first one!)

Sibelius has Opus fonts. Are they the same? In the guide the one I think
you want is called "Repeat last bar." (The thick oblique with dots
either side). Could it be the same in PMS?

Yes, that is the symbol I linked to in my post.

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4804-repeat

Unfortunately I can't find any *command* to perform this action in PMS -
I can possibly come up with a way to simulate it by inserting empty bars
and printing/drawing symbols on them, but there doesn't seem to be an
actual directive to automatically insert the symbol and treat the bar as
a repeat of the previous one during playback, export, bar counting etc.
It may be one of the things you are expected to implement yourself via macros/drawing...!

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

"An American is a man with two arms and four wheels".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

Bonjour Harriet
In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4804-repeat

I've done my best to scour the manual, but I've discovered before that
the feature I wanted did in fact exist somewhere buried in the documentation and/or examples, but not under the name by which I was expecting it!

I didn't find it in the !PMS examples.
I found an item Repeated bars page 136/148 in the PVM 4.12 manual, but I haven't been able to put it into practice.

I got it working; you just put a figure in square brackets before the
bar you want to be repeated that number of times, e.g.

[4] dd |

will generate four 2/4 bars of two crotchet Ds each. The problem from
my point of view is that the 'repeat' feature will actually create
duplicate bars instead of simply marking them to be repeated by the
player - and the other problem is that you cannot, for example, start a
hairpin between two repeated bars, or add any other text or dynamic over
one but not the others. Those four bars are generated all as a single
unit.

I could not, however, get the feature in section 41.18 to work, which is supposed to move rests up or down the stave; I had to use an [rlevel
-10] to stop the rest in one part from colliding with the notes above it
in the other part. :-(


(Edit: I just worked it out. The option uses the *letter* 'l' rather
than the *figure* '1' -- unfortunately the example given is shown in the
Corpus font where the two characters are identical! So the option
r\l-10\ will affect that *specific* rest as I wanted, rather than
affecting every subsequent rest, which is what the [rlevel] command
does.)

The repeat character exists in PMS fonts

I can't find it - though I did discover that if I switch XChars to
'Default' encoding instead of Latin-1, the PMS-Alpha and PMS-Music fonts display a lot of extra characters. But not that one!

The PMS manual has an entire appendix - "Chapter 49 The PMW musical
font" which lists every character that supposedly exists, including some
very obscure extra components to be used for building up notes: quaver
tails or special longer vertical stems for using with cross noteheads as opposed to normal noteheads, for example... I'm guessing that the
combination needed is characters 143 and 144 of the PMS.Music
font overprinted on one another, a thick diagonal line and a pair of
black dots on the opposite diagonal. But the manual doesn't give a
text description for these characters as it does for many of the others,
so I have no idea what !PMS calls them if they are ever referred to.

Note: Rhapsody4 uses the same fonts with permission from Richard Hallas,
and the bar repeat is displayed correctly.

Yes, Rhapsody definitely has the required feature, which displays and
plays back correctly. I assumed that PMS would as well, but if it has I
can't find it!

I could probably attempt to draw one using the drawing functions, but
then of course you would have the problem of getting the bar count and playback to reflect the symbol....

So far as I can make out, I would probably need to encode it as a blank
bar filled by an invisible rest, and then output character 143, then
overprint it with character 144. This would not have the right effect
on playback, but that's not really an important issue in this case, as
what I need to do is produce PDFs/printout for distribution among my
fellow players. So provided it *looks* all right, they won't know the difference...

Edit: OK, defining PMS.Music as 'extra font 1' and then printing
character 143 followed by 144, *in that order*, will output the required
symbol below the stave, which is not where I want it but which is a
start.

Textfont extra 1 "PMS.Music"

[stave 1] "\x1\\144\\143\"

It's a shame that the PMS output functionality that was planned is not implemented in Rhapsody4.

Yes - the Info file released with the Iyonix-era version of the software
(circa 2007) states that Rhapsody 4 and SharpEye can both generate PMS
output, but presumably this was based on the Rhapsody 4 manual's claim
that it did so. :-(

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html



--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 1 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

Bonjour Harriet
In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Does anyone happen to know how you obtain one-bar repeat symbols in
Philip Hazel's !PMS for RISC OS?

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4804-repeat

I've done my best to scour the manual, but I've discovered before that
the feature I wanted did in fact exist somewhere buried in the
documentation and/or examples, but not under the name by which I was
expecting it!

I didn't find it in the !PMS examples.
I found an item Repeated bars page 136/148 in the PVM 4.12 manual, but I
haven't been able to put it into practice.

I got it working; you just put a figure in square brackets before the
bar you want to be repeated that number of times, e.g.

[4] dd |

will generate four 2/4 bars of two crotchet Ds each. The problem from
my point of view is that the 'repeat' feature will actually create
duplicate bars instead of simply marking them to be repeated by the
player - and the other problem is that you cannot, for example, start a hairpin between two repeated bars, or add any other text or dynamic over
one but not the others. Those four bars are generated all as a single
unit.

Tested it works , fine.

I could not, however, get the feature in section 41.18 to work, which is supposed to move rests up or down the stave; I had to use an [rlevel
-10] to stop the rest in one part from colliding with the notes above it
in the other part. :-(

I pay attention to my English/French interpretation, it's too easy to make mistakes :-(

(Edit: I just worked it out. The option uses the *letter* 'l' rather
than the *figure* '1' -- unfortunately the example given is shown in the Corpus font where the two characters are identical! So the option
r\l-10\ will affect that *specific* rest as I wanted, rather than
affecting every subsequent rest, which is what the [rlevel] command
does.)

I assume this is the PVM 4.12 manual version?
not tested..

The repeat character exists in PMS fonts

I can't find it - though I did discover that if I switch XChars to
'Default' encoding instead of Latin-1, the PMS-Alpha and PMS-Music fonts display a lot of extra characters. But not that one!

ou are right, to see the encoding of symbols in Rhapsody resources there
is a symbols file which allows you to see them. With EasyWriter you can
open the file and modify the font name of the symbol to view.

The PMS manual has an entire appendix - "Chapter 49 The PMW musical
font" which lists every character that supposedly exists, including some
very obscure extra components to be used for building up notes: quaver
tails or special longer vertical stems for using with cross noteheads as opposed to normal noteheads, for example... I'm guessing that the combination needed is characters 143 and 144 of the PMS.Music
font overprinted on one another, a thick diagonal line and a pair of
black dots on the opposite diagonal. But the manual doesn't give a
text description for these characters as it does for many of the others,
so I have no idea what !PMS calls them if they are ever referred to.

Symbols:
--/ #160 040 Repeat bar sign, ��
StrongEd confirms that these are indeed the characters 144 then 143

Note: Rhapsody4 uses the same fonts with permission from Richard Hallas,
and the bar repeat is displayed correctly.

Yes, Rhapsody definitely has the required feature, which displays and
plays back correctly. I assumed that PMS would as well, but if it has I can't find it!

PMS should be better at creating scores, but I've never used it...

I could probably attempt to draw one using the drawing functions, but
then of course you would have the problem of getting the bar count and
playback to reflect the symbol....

So far as I can make out, I would probably need to encode it as a blank
bar filled by an invisible rest, and then output character 143, then overprint it with character 144. This would not have the right effect
on playback, but that's not really an important issue in this case, as
what I need to do is produce PDFs/printout for distribution among my
fellow players. So provided it *looks* all right, they won't know the difference...

Edit: OK, defining PMS.Music as 'extra font 1' and then printing
character 143 followed by 144, *in that order*, will output the required symbol below the stave, which is not where I want it but which is a
start.

Textfont extra 1 "PMS.Music"

[stave 1] "\x1\\144\\143\"

Tested Ok, I don't know the syntax of PMS, to study.

It's a shame that the PMS output functionality that was planned is not
implemented in Rhapsody4.

Yes - the Info file released with the Iyonix-era version of the software (circa 2007) states that Rhapsody 4 and SharpEye can both generate PMS output, but presumably this was based on the Rhapsody 4 manual's claim
that it did so. :-(

By any chance, Rhapsody3 would have this possibility?

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is
maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the
program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).



Bonne journ�e.

--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is
maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

That version does come with PMW Music and PMW Alpha Postscript fonts,
credited to Richard Hallas.

Maybe somebody could convert them to a RISC OS font and see if they have
the right symbols in them?

Seems like !T1toFont is in the ROOL standard install: https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Software%20information:%20T1ToFont

(I'm not clear whether they're Type 1 or later fonts, the latter aren't
handled by T1toFont)

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <XIy*[email protected]>
Theo <[email protected]> wrote:

Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is
maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the
program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

That version does come with PMW Music and PMW Alpha Postscript fonts, credited to Richard Hallas.

Thanks to him

Maybe somebody could convert them to a RISC OS font and see if they have
the right symbols in them?

These are Risc Os fonts that Richard specially designed for PMS, so there
are no problems when using them.

Seems like !T1toFont is in the ROOL standard install: https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Software%20information: %20T1ToFont

(I'm not clear whether they're Type 1 or later fonts, the latter aren't handled by T1toFont)

Theo

In PMS, as Harriet pointed out, the symbol is represented by the two
characters n� 144 and 143 of the PMS musisc font.


--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

Edit: OK, defining PMS.Music as 'extra font 1' and then printing
character 143 followed by 144, *in that order*, will output the required symbol below the stave, which is not where I want it but which is a
start.

Textfont extra 1 "PMS.Music"

[stave 1] "\x1\\144\\143\"

Tested Ok, I don't know the syntax of PMS, to study.

Right, I now have a usable macro to simulate a 'repeat bar' symbol:

*define repeat "\x1\\144\\143\"/b/u14 Q!

This uses an 'invisible rest', Q ("useful for special effects when overprinting") to create an empty bar, then prints character 144, which
is defined in the font file as a zero-width character, followed by
character 143 on top of it, using the control options \b to force the
text below the stave (in case the current text default was at some other
level) and \u14 to move the printing position up 14 points from there,
which by a process of trial and error looks about the right height on
the stave to me.

You can even write
[3] &repeat |

to generate three bars of repeated repeat bar symbols. :-D

Of course it plays back as a rest rather than as an actual repetition of
the preceding bar, as Rhapsody would do, but for my purposes just
drawing the symbol in an empty bar will do.

It's a shame that the PMS output functionality that was planned is not
implemented in Rhapsody4.

Yes - the Info file released with the Iyonix-era version of the software (circa 2007) states that Rhapsody 4 and SharpEye can both generate PMS output, but presumably this was based on the Rhapsody 4 manual's claim
that it did so. :-(

By any chance, Rhapsody3 would have this possibility?

I don't have Rhapsody 3, so I don't know.
But since the R4 manual states that it exports in PMS format and it
actually has a menu option to do so, I expect the author of the Info
file took it for granted that this option worked...!

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is
maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

It might be possible to get the commnad-line version to generate Draw
files instead of PostScript, but the result wouldn't have the fully
integrated RISC OS window controls, print configuration, audio playback
etc. :-(

I imagine it would be like the 'new' eSpeak as versus the original RISC
OS !Speak; support for more languages, but missing rather a lot of the
desktop integration, control and usability features (notably
talk-as-you-type and pronunciation edit) that existed in the dedicated
RISC OS version....


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 2 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

Edit: OK, defining PMS.Music as 'extra font 1' and then printing
character 143 followed by 144, *in that order*, will output the required >>> symbol below the stave, which is not where I want it but which is a
start.

Textfont extra 1 "PMS.Music"

[stave 1] "\x1\\144\\143\"

Tested Ok, I don't know the syntax of PMS, to study.

Right, I now have a usable macro to simulate a 'repeat bar' symbol:

*define repeat "\x1\\144\\143\"/b/u14 Q!

This uses an 'invisible rest', Q ("useful for special effects when overprinting") to create an empty bar, then prints character 144, which
is defined in the font file as a zero-width character, followed by
character 143 on top of it, using the control options \b to force the
text below the stave (in case the current text default was at some other level) and \u14 to move the printing position up 14 points from there,
which by a process of trial and error looks about the right height on
the stave to me.

You can even write
[3] &repeat |

to generate three bars of repeated repeat bar symbols. :-D

Not yet tested, but congratulations!
You are familiar with PMS syntax.

Of course it plays back as a rest rather than as an actual repetition of
the preceding bar, as Rhapsody would do, but for my purposes just
drawing the symbol in an empty bar will do.

Yes.

It's a shame that the PMS output functionality that was planned is not >>>> implemented in Rhapsody4.

Yes - the Info file released with the Iyonix-era version of the software >>> (circa 2007) states that Rhapsody 4 and SharpEye can both generate PMS
output, but presumably this was based on the Rhapsody 4 manual's claim
that it did so. :-(

By any chance, Rhapsody3 would have this possibility?

I don't have Rhapsody 3, so I don't know.
But since the R4 manual states that it exports in PMS format and it
actually has a menu option to do so, I expect the author of the Info
file took it for granted that this option worked...!

There is a chance that this was never implemented... in all versions of Rhapsody, I also checked Rhapsody2

Perhaps building the latest versions of Philip Hazel, the program is
maintained.

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the
program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

It might be possible to get the commnad-line version to generate Draw
files instead of PostScript, but the result wouldn't have the fully integrated RISC OS window controls, print configuration, audio playback
etc. :-(

Yes, but once the scripted version works, we can use the RISC OS version
as a model, I recompiled the source some time ago...

I imagine it would be like the 'new' eSpeak as versus the original RISC
OS !Speak; support for more languages, but missing rather a lot of the desktop integration, control and usability features (notably
talk-as-you-type and pronunciation edit) that existed in the dedicated
RISC OS version....

I agree with you, in desktop form, the applications are good. I try to
convert the programs I find and it would be a shame to lose them.

The biggest program I converted is PariGp, it is much more practical than
the Windows version because it has its editor. It's not perfect but it
works.
Out of curiosity: https://jeanmichelb.riscos.fr/Math.html#PariGp21h

Rhapsody4 is an example, which has a desktop interface, in this it
surpasses Sibelius.

For information, I tried the Windows version of Rhapsody: VBRhapsody,
there are no problems loading a Rhapsody4 file. It is displayed correctly
and complete. This may be useful.



--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

Right, I now have a usable macro to simulate a 'repeat bar' symbol:

*define repeat "\x1\\144\\143\"/b/u14 Q!

This uses an 'invisible rest', Q ("useful for special effects when overprinting") to create an empty bar, then prints character 144, which
is defined in the font file as a zero-width character, followed by character 143 on top of it, using the control options \b to force the
text below the stave (in case the current text default was at some other level) and \u14 to move the printing position up 14 points from there, which by a process of trial and error looks about the right height on
the stave to me.

You can even write
[3] &repeat |

to generate three bars of repeated repeat bar symbols. :-D

Not yet tested, but congratulations!
You are familiar with PMS syntax.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with it, which means that every time I
actually try to use the program I have to look up everything in the
manual from the beginning again, starting with how to create a single
note (without the directive [stave treble 1], you get some very
unexpected results!)

And then you end up with a file that looks like this:

["8"/d10] &mf &sqs(,g',,e',,b,,e') | &sqs(,e',$,c',$],a,$],c') | < &sqs(,g',,e',,b,,e') | &sqs(,g',,d',,b,,d') < |

It's more like writing PostScript by hand than typing actual music....

(I only use !PMS when I'm trying to replicate the layout of some
specific sheet of music, and almost every time I seem to end up running
into some relatively common feature that doesn't seem to exist in its
syntax, despite all the 'early music' features and very complex examples
given. I really didn't think my requirements from music typesetting
software were that complex; I can only assume that the sort of
old-fashioned 'light classical' music I handle tends to operate
according to a different set of conventions from those used by either
academic typesetting or popular modern arrangements.)


[snip]

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the
program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a
Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

It might be possible to get the command-line version to generate
Draw files instead of PostScript, but the result wouldn't have the
fully integrated RISC OS window controls, print configuration, audio playback etc. :-(

Yes, but once the scripted version works, we can use the RISC OS version
as a model, I recompiled the source some time ago...

And did it work?

I can't even open the source of the latest release to check the manual contents, because it's a tar.gz file: https://github.com/PhilipHazel/pmw/releases/download/pmw-5.21/pmw-5.21.tar.gz But talking about support for 'included files' and 'repeating arbitrary
input fragments' - as opposed to entire bars, or the last chord entered
- does sound as if they added some new features. And interestingly I
see that on page 2 of the sample PDF http://quercite.dx.am/Sample00.pdf
they actually show a repeat bar symbol alongside the guitar tablature!


[snip]

Rhapsody4 is an example, which has a desktop interface, in this it
surpasses Sibelius.

I've never seen Sibelius running under RISC OS, but I understand that it operates in single-tasking mode in a monochrome screen?

For information, I tried the Windows version of Rhapsody: VBRhapsody,
there are no problems loading a Rhapsody4 file. It is displayed correctly
and complete. This may be useful.

It might be useful for sending Rhapsody files to Windows users...
assuming, however, that they are willing to download a random piece of
freeware just in order to view your file, rather than asking you to send
it in an 'industry standard' format instead. :-(


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

This space intentionally left empty.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I can't even open the source of the latest release to check the manual contents, because it's a tar.gz file: https://github.com/PhilipHazel/pmw/releases/download/pmw-5.21/pmw-5.21.tar.gz

It opens fine with !SparkFS. I took a look and decided I hadn't a clue
what to do with the contents which are mostly data files, even the
"Readme" is data!

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

You are familiar with PMS syntax.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with it, which means that every time I actually try to use the program I have to look up everything in the
manual from the beginning again, starting with how to create a single
note (without the directive [stave treble 1], you get some very
unexpected results!)

And then you end up with a file that looks like this:

["8"/d10] &mf &sqs(,g',,e',,b,,e') | &sqs(,e',$,c',$],a,$],c') | < &sqs(,g',,e',,b,,e') | &sqs(,g',,d',,b,,d') < |

It's more like writing PostScript by hand than typing actual music....

Yes, or Latex, I much prefer TechWriter.

(I only use !PMS when I'm trying to replicate the layout of some
specific sheet of music, and almost every time I seem to end up running
into some relatively common feature that doesn't seem to exist in its
syntax, despite all the 'early music' features and very complex examples given. I really didn't think my requirements from music typesetting
software were that complex; I can only assume that the sort of
old-fashioned 'light classical' music I handle tends to operate
according to a different set of conventions from those used by either academic typesetting or popular modern arrangements.)

Not easy...

[snip]

Apparently there was a July 2023 release: http://quercite.dx.am/pmw.html

Yes, there is no graphical interface like with the RISC OS version, the >>>> program creates PostScript output, I think it would be simple to add a >>>> Draw version, (I used this process for my RISC version PariGP OS).

It might be possible to get the command-line version to generate
Draw files instead of PostScript, but the result wouldn't have the
fully integrated RISC OS window controls, print configuration, audio
playback etc. :-(

Yes, but once the scripted version works, we can use the RISC OS version
as a model, I recompiled the source some time ago...

And did it work?

It was the Risc OS v3.61P version, we would have to make comparisons with
the more recent version to see how to adapt them.

I can't even open the source of the latest release to check the manual contents, because it's a tar.gz file: https://github.com/PhilipHazel/pmw/releases/download/pmw-5.21/pmw-5.21.tar.gz But talking about support for 'included files' and 'repeating arbitrary
input fragments' - as opposed to entire bars, or the last chord entered
- does sound as if they added some new features. And interestingly I
see that on page 2 of the sample PDF http://quercite.dx.am/Sample00.pdf
they actually show a repeat bar symbol alongside the guitar tablature!

I tried with your link, no problem opening it with Sparfs.
What is your version of !SparkFS? mine is v 1.46. you must also check the
Tar module in the choice panel.

[snip]

Rhapsody4 is an example, which has a desktop interface, in this it
surpasses Sibelius.

I've never seen Sibelius running under RISC OS, but I understand that it operates in single-tasking mode in a monochrome screen?

4 colours mod, unfortunately this is the reason why it does not work under Aemulator, because it is a mode that we cannot have...

For information, I tried the Windows version of Rhapsody: VBRhapsody,
there are no problems loading a Rhapsody4 file. It is displayed correctly
and complete. This may be useful.

It might be useful for sending Rhapsody files to Windows users...
assuming, however, that they are willing to download a random piece of freeware just in order to view your file, rather than asking you to send
it in an 'industry standard' format instead. :-(

I think there are many formats that all tend towards an XML file, the only "standard" format is MIDI files, but you lose the layout...



--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 5 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

You are familiar with PMS syntax.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with it, which means that every time I actually try to use the program I have to look up everything in the
manual from the beginning again, starting with how to create a single
note

I think half the problem is the manual, or at least the PostScript
version of it - I simply can't *find* features because the relevant data
is spread across multiple sections.

For example slurs and ties are initially defined in Section 11, "Ties,
slurs and glissandos", but the keywords for controlling how they are
split across lines of music are found buried deep inside "Heading
directives", in Section 38.32 and 38.105, and detailed discussion of how
to apply them also occurs under "Notes and rests", 41.1 and 41.20, as
well as in 47.78 concerning the keyword "[slur]" and the keyword
"[slurgap]" in 47.79. (And that's a prime example of the issue:
'[slurgap]' allows you to draw slurs *over* other objects on the stave,
but the existence of this possibility isn't so much as mentioned in any
of the 'main' sections concerning slurs, so you only find out about it
if you read through *all* the definitions, including the 99% which are currently irrelevant to whatever you might be looking up.)

Likewise, I accidentally stumbled across a [space] keyword that is
designed to allow you to draw objects (like repeat symbols) on the stave without needing to attach them to invisible rests to make room, as I was
doing. But I couldn't find it in the manual when I was trying to look
up how to print characters in the 'music font' onto the stave, because I
didn't know that I ought to be looking for a keyword under "Stave
directives", and had no idea what to look up in the index.

[snip]

(I only use !PMS when I'm trying to replicate the layout of some
specific sheet of music, and almost every time I seem to end up running into some relatively common feature that doesn't seem to exist in its syntax, despite all the 'early music' features and very complex examples given. I really didn't think my requirements from music typesetting software were that complex; I can only assume that the sort of old-fashioned 'light classical' music I handle tends to operate
according to a different set of conventions from those used by either academic typesetting or popular modern arrangements.)

Not easy...

The good news is that the first violins were so impressed by my
rewritten 'readable' second violin part that they want me to do them one
as well - I said it would be relatively easy, because it is almost
identical in terms of rhythm and ornament to the second violin part, and
I assumed it would just be a matter of plugging different note values
into a copy of the stave I'd already constructed.

The bad news is that I then spent the evening trying to teach myself how
to print an extra cue stave above the main part (hint: you don't do it
using the [cue] keyword!), wrestling with overprinting and Stave 0, and
working out how to print multiple parts from a single score and how to
use format specifications from RISC OS when the manual just tells you to
supply them as an -f switch on the command line... (answer: it's under a
menu entry called Options).

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in
order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!
(While constantly trying to locate the syntax for various options I
*knew* I'd encountered previously, but couldn't find a heading for in
the PDF outline....)

[snip]

I can't even open the source of the latest release to check the manual contents, because it's a tar.gz file: https://github.com/PhilipHazel/pmw/releases/download/pmw-5.21/pmw-5.21.tar.gz
But talking about support for 'included files' and 'repeating arbitrary input fragments' - as opposed to entire bars, or the last chord entered
- does sound as if they added some new features. And interestingly I
see that on page 2 of the sample PDF http://quercite.dx.am/Sample00.pdf they actually show a repeat bar symbol alongside the guitar tablature!

I tried with your link, no problem opening it with Sparfs.
What is your version of !SparkFS? mine is v 1.46. you must also check the
Tar module in the choice panel.

I have 1.46, which was supplied with the ARMx6 - the RISC OS 3.1 version
that I actually paid for definitely had optional Tar support, but this
one doesn't even seem to install itself on the icon bar if you
double-click on it, which makes it rather hard to configure!

(I see that it does have a file !SparkFS.Modules.Tar inside it...)




--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!

You're obviously using this group to keep your notes with the ultimate aim
of either adding them as an addendum or rewriting the manual. Both very laudable and desirable things!

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

Best wishes,

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 5 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

You are familiar with PMS syntax.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with it, which means that every time I
actually try to use the program I have to look up everything in the
manual from the beginning again, starting with how to create a single
note

I think half the problem is the manual, or at least the PostScript
version of it - I simply can't *find* features because the relevant data
is spread across multiple sections.

For example slurs and ties are initially defined in Section 11, "Ties,
slurs and glissandos", but the keywords for controlling how they are
split across lines of music are found buried deep inside "Heading directives", in Section 38.32 and 38.105, and detailed discussion of how
to apply them also occurs under "Notes and rests", 41.1 and 41.20, as
well as in 47.78 concerning the keyword "[slur]" and the keyword
"[slurgap]" in 47.79. (And that's a prime example of the issue:
'[slurgap]' allows you to draw slurs *over* other objects on the stave,
but the existence of this possibility isn't so much as mentioned in any
of the 'main' sections concerning slurs, so you only find out about it
if you read through *all* the definitions, including the 99% which are currently irrelevant to whatever you might be looking up.)

Likewise, I accidentally stumbled across a [space] keyword that is
designed to allow you to draw objects (like repeat symbols) on the stave without needing to attach them to invisible rests to make room, as I was doing. But I couldn't find it in the manual when I was trying to look
up how to print characters in the 'music font' onto the stave, because I didn't know that I ought to be looking for a keyword under "Stave directives", and had no idea what to look up in the index.

[snip]

You will be able to write a hints_tips manual, Rhapsody has one

(I only use !PMS when I'm trying to replicate the layout of some
specific sheet of music, and almost every time I seem to end up running
into some relatively common feature that doesn't seem to exist in its
syntax, despite all the 'early music' features and very complex examples >>> given. I really didn't think my requirements from music typesetting
software were that complex; I can only assume that the sort of
old-fashioned 'light classical' music I handle tends to operate
according to a different set of conventions from those used by either
academic typesetting or popular modern arrangements.)

Not easy...

The good news is that the first violins were so impressed by my
rewritten 'readable' second violin part that they want me to do them one
as well - I said it would be relatively easy, because it is almost
identical in terms of rhythm and ornament to the second violin part, and
I assumed it would just be a matter of plugging different note values
into a copy of the stave I'd already constructed.

Can you send me the !Rhapsody version and the !PMS version in PDF or Draw
to compare, please.

The bad news is that I then spent the evening trying to teach myself how
to print an extra cue stave above the main part (hint: you don't do it
using the [cue] keyword!), wrestling with overprinting and Stave 0, and working out how to print multiple parts from a single score and how to
use format specifications from RISC OS when the manual just tells you to supply them as an -f switch on the command line... (answer: it's under a
menu entry called Options).

This is the general problem of the documentation and as with RISC OS,
there are not many users it is more complicated...

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!
(While constantly trying to locate the syntax for various options I
*knew* I'd encountered previously, but couldn't find a heading for in
the PDF outline....)

:-(

[snip]

I can't even open the source of the latest release to check the manual
contents, because it's a tar.gz file:
https://github.com/PhilipHazel/pmw/releases/download/pmw-5.21/pmw-5.21.tar >>> .gz
But talking about support for 'included files' and 'repeating arbitrary
input fragments' - as opposed to entire bars, or the last chord entered
- does sound as if they added some new features. And interestingly I
see that on page 2 of the sample PDF http://quercite.dx.am/Sample00.pdf
they actually show a repeat bar symbol alongside the guitar tablature!

I tried with your link, no problem opening it with Sparfs.
What is your version of !SparkFS? mine is v 1.46. you must also check the
Tar module in the choice panel.

I have 1.46, which was supplied with the ARMx6 - the RISC OS 3.1 version
that I actually paid for definitely had optional Tar support, but this
one doesn't even seem to install itself on the icon bar if you
double-click on it, which makes it rather hard to configure!

(I see that it does have a file !SparkFS.Modules.Tar inside it...)

I also bought !SparkFS, essential!!!
!SparFS is available on !Store if needed, thanks to David Pilling



--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!

You're obviously using this group to keep your notes with the ultimate aim
of either adding them as an addendum or rewriting the manual. Both very laudable and desirable things!

Sorry - just 'thinking aloud' (and venting....)

Unfortunately I don't think rewriting the manual is a feasible option;
I've tried rewriting a couple of StrongHelp manuals for my own use (lua
and awk) and never finished the job, and those come with inherent
'source code'. This one is a PDF file hundreds of pages long.

And it already has a 'for beginners' section at the start; part of the
problem is that every time I need to 'relearn' the software after a year
or two's interval, the basic information is split between "Getting
started", "More about notes" and "Notes and rests".

The other problem is that there *is* a logic to the way that it is
arranged (i.e. have reference sections consisting of all the keywords
that can appear in the headers and then all the keywords that can be
used in the music itself), and it does already have a detailed index.
As with all indexes, however, you need to know what you are looking for,
what it is called, and indeed that the option exists in the first place.
I'm not sure how it could be better written, only that I keep
discovering vital bits of information by accident.

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

I can't find an online download for it, although one may exist. It was reissued on the back of an article in Qercus/Acorn User issue 281 (also included in the original distribution) - the file dates are January/May
2007 - and I don't know what happened to the Qercus archives. But the
version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015, and I have no
idea where I got it. :-(

Wikipedia points to https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/6435008/pms-qercus-281-finnybank
is unreadable in Netsurf, but squinting at the HTML suggests that it is probably just the text of the magazine article.

http://qercus.co.uk/magazine is essentially an empty site 'under
development' since 2013.

I can e-mail you the distribution that I have, but it would be nice to
know where I got hold of it....


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

The saddest words in the English language are 'Too' and 'late'

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in >>> order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!

You're obviously using this group to keep your notes with the ultimate aim >> of either adding them as an addendum or rewriting the manual. Both very
laudable and desirable things!

Sorry - just 'thinking aloud' (and venting....)

Unfortunately I don't think rewriting the manual is a feasible option;
I've tried rewriting a couple of StrongHelp manuals for my own use (lua
and awk) and never finished the job, and those come with inherent
'source code'. This one is a PDF file hundreds of pages long.

And it already has a 'for beginners' section at the start; part of the problem is that every time I need to 'relearn' the software after a year
or two's interval, the basic information is split between "Getting
started", "More about notes" and "Notes and rests".

The other problem is that there *is* a logic to the way that it is
arranged (i.e. have reference sections consisting of all the keywords
that can appear in the headers and then all the keywords that can be
used in the music itself), and it does already have a detailed index.
As with all indexes, however, you need to know what you are looking for,
what it is called, and indeed that the option exists in the first place.
I'm not sure how it could be better written, only that I keep
discovering vital bits of information by accident.

You have Sharpeye, I did a test by taking a score created with Rhapsody in
PDF format then importing it into SharpEye you can obtain a PMS file.
To test...

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

I can't find an online download for it, although one may exist. It was reissued on the back of an article in Qercus/Acorn User issue 281 (also included in the original distribution) - the file dates are January/May
2007 - and I don't know what happened to the Qercus archives. But the version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015, and I have no
idea where I got it. :-(

Wikipedia points to https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/6435008/pms-qercus-281-finnybank
is unreadable in Netsurf, but squinting at the HTML suggests that it is probably just the text of the magazine article.

http://qercus.co.uk/magazine is essentially an empty site 'under
development' since 2013.

I can e-mail you the distribution that I have, but it would be nice to
know where I got hold of it....

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I was
able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost...
I can make it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?


--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

But the version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015

I have found version 3.60P dated 6-April-2003 on my old Iyonix back-up - I
had been looking through earlier back-ups on that HD copy with no success.

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I
was able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost... I can make
it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?

The "same version" is encouraging. My interest is that I already have the
PMS fonts in my collection, so I must have looked at it some years ago.

My reawakened interest in such things is that I've started playing (guitar) with a music group - mixed instruments and quite a few "readers".

I can decipher or "sight-guess" (which is what I did with my French village choir), but the ability to produce/edit copy for the group myself might
well be very useful.

I was encouraged by Harriet's experience with her violinists (!) to believe such a thing might be possible for me.

My initial attempt to use my limited skills usefully in connection with
this activity can be found at:

http://le.petit.four.free.fr/Music/ScoreIndex.htm

although I don't think it will be of direct interest.

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in >>>> order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!

You're obviously using this group to keep your notes with the ultimate aim >>> of either adding them as an addendum or rewriting the manual. Both very >>> laudable and desirable things!

[snip]

You have Sharpeye, I did a test by taking a score created with Rhapsody in PDF format then importing it into SharpEye you can obtain a PMS file.
To test...

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

I can't find an online download for it, although one may exist. It was
reissued on the back of an article in Qercus/Acorn User issue 281 (also
included in the original distribution) - the file dates are January/May
2007 - and I don't know what happened to the Qercus archives. But the
version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015, and I have no
idea where I got it. :-(

[snip]

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I was able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost...
I can make it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore


--
Chris Hughes

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Chris Hughes wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

[snip]

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

I can't find an online download for it, although one may exist.

[snip]

the version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015, and I
have no idea where I got it. :-(

[snip]

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I was able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost...
I can make it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Ah yes, and so is PMS Source Code - that is presumably where Jean-Michel
got it from!

(Under Categories->Sound/Music)

And that's a nice illustration of the fact that things can indeed exist
online and not be indexed by search engines....

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

He that would govern others, first should be master of himself.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

So the most painless way to add the key data would be to re-sort your
index into page number order within each source, and then simply start
at the beginning of the book and enter each key manually as you come to
it. Still a lot of typing, but far less than attempting to look up
each piece in their current alphabetical order.

Of course!

I have kept the stages for each "book" so that I can easily edit and re-concatenate-and-re-sort. I would add the keys in the CSV files and
re-make the sheet.

All of this was done under RISC OS though, which is really the point.
I used my favourite familiar software on an OS I understand to make me "productive", giving me a result which may be of use to others.

All this despite RISC OS being unable to display many of the scores
themselves.

You may have noticed I've also learned to do stuff you can see on your
'phone!

Fed-up with all those messages from Google about my legacy "Petit Four"
site designed before we had smartphones!

Who would ever have imagined?

I like to tell the tale of my father who had heard of these things called "laundromats" in the USA after the war, but dismissed them as an investment idea, saying "taking your washing to a shop would never catch-on".

Who would ever have imagined? I expect people whose families are now
rather well-off.

But soon that'll be so far in the past as a story it will be greeted by
blank stares. We may even be there already.

Best wishes,

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <[email protected]>,
Jean-Michel <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I
was able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost... I can make
it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?

The "same version" is encouraging. My interest is that I already have the PMS fonts in my collection, so I must have looked at it some years ago.

The PMS fonts were supplied with Rhapsody as well, so if you ever used
that you will have them.

My reawakened interest in such things is that I've started playing (guitar) with a music group - mixed instruments and quite a few "readers".

I can decipher or "sight-guess" (which is what I did with my French village choir), but the ability to produce/edit copy for the group myself might
well be very useful.

I was encouraged by Harriet's experience with her violinists (!) to believe such a thing might be possible for me.

It's certainly possible; I've used Rhapsody to produce printed settings
for the school orchestra based on manuscript arrangements (not mine!)

And both Rhapsody and PMS offer features for guitar chords, although I
have no idea how well they work since I have never attempted to print
guitar music.

My initial attempt to use my limited skills usefully in connection with
this activity can be found at:

http://le.petit.four.free.fr/Music/ScoreIndex.htm

although I don't think it will be of direct interest.

Hmm... your thousand pieces are actually spread across only three books
(unlike my similar index which covers hundreds and hundreds of single
sheet editions and songbooks with maybe a dozen songs in each, in
addition to the big bulky "100 Best Showtunes" and so on albums!)

So the most painless way to add the key data would be to re-sort your
index into page number order within each source, and then simply start
at the beginning of the book and enter each key manually as you come to
it. Still a lot of typing, but far less than attempting to look up
each piece in their current alphabetical order.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

C++ - the language in which only friends can access your private members

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <[email protected]>,
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I've had to learn a whole lot of new complex features of the software in >>> order to do something I thought was going to be reasonably trivial!

You're obviously using this group to keep your notes with the ultimate aim >> of either adding them as an addendum or rewriting the manual. Both very >> laudable and desirable things!

Sorry - just 'thinking aloud' (and venting....)

Unfortunately I don't think rewriting the manual is a feasible option;
I've tried rewriting a couple of StrongHelp manuals for my own use (lua
and awk) and never finished the job, and those come with inherent
'source code'. This one is a PDF file hundreds of pages long.

[snip]

You have Sharpeye, I did a test by taking a score created with Rhapsody in PDF format then importing it into SharpEye you can obtain a PMS file.
To test...

Sharpeye is for optical music recognition.
The manual consists of text and graphics - presumably it was originally
a wordprocessor /desktop publishing document of some sort...

It would be like trying to recreate the Rhapsody manual (as opposed to
scanning it in and displaying scans of each page).

Where can I get the program to share in your efforts?

I can't find an online download for it, although one may exist. It was reissued on the back of an article in Qercus/Acorn User issue 281 (also included in the original distribution) - the file dates are January/May 2007 - and I don't know what happened to the Qercus archives. But the version I actually have is version 3.61P of 14 July 2015, and I have no idea where I got it. :-(

[snip]

Hey John, I have the same version as Harriet and it's a version that I was able to reconstruct with the source so nothing is lost...

Interesting - I don't have the source in my distribution, but I quite
possibly simply didn't download and/or deleted it at the time, given
that I don't have a C compiler!

I can make it available with Rhapsody4, but maybe I don't have the right?

The ReadMe says "has been released as freeware with full source code",
so I think the intention was for it to be freely available, rather than
being a special licensed version for Qercus.

But I had a lot of trouble finding your Rhapsody 4 download via Google
just now, and that was despite knowing your name and the name of the
software (maybe google.co.uk automatically ignores pages in French?), so
it's entirely possible that the !PMS download *is* out there somewhere
but just not indexed very well...

( https://jeanmichelb.riscos.fr/Rhapsody4.html for reference - Rhapsody
4 is free and probably easier to use. It just doesn't allow you quite
such fine control over the typesetting aspect, e.g. in PMS it is
possible to hide the obligatory time signature at the start of a piece
if you want to type out a single page from the middle of something,
which happens to be what I am doing at the moment!)



--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one works.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <[email protected]> wrote:

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Thank you, Chris! Very helpful.

John

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I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!

I have succeeded with the first example eventually. But caution!

I exported the example text from the PDF manual <emphatic>to avoid typing errors</emphatic> only to encounter my first error!

Usual problem experienced when downloading PHP scripts; character ambiguity!

What should have been an apostrophe in the PDF manual was actually a sexed leading quote - very difficult to spot!

I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread, fall at the first hurdle because of it!

I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into
from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem delightfully simple!

Thanks to all contributors.

Best wishes,

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!

I have succeeded with the first example eventually. But caution!

I exported the example text from the PDF manual <emphatic>to avoid typing errors</emphatic> only to encounter my first error!

Usual problem experienced when downloading PHP scripts; character ambiguity!

What should have been an apostrophe in the PDF manual was actually a
sexed leading quote - very difficult to spot!

Note that !PMS actually does funny things with apostrophes in text:

"The quote character � [CHR$(180)] and the grave accent character `
[CHR$(96)] are converted into (single) closing and opening quote
characters, respectively, except when using the music or Symbol fonts. A closing quote character is the same as an apostrophe."

I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread, fall at the first hurdle because of it!

I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem delightfully simple!

Yes, it's definitely reminiscent of ABC notation, which I played around
with quite a bit at one point. Albeit a cross between ABC and LaTeX!
:-p

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

It is better to be deceived by a friend, than to suspect him.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!

N.B. I have a 'PMS' StrongED mode that does some colouring (e.g.
highlighting comments and [slur]/[endslur] markings) and folds
individual staves, which can be convenient when you start getting
multiple parts per file. I would e-mail it to you, but your adress
appears to be a spam-bin.


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Don't hate yourself in the morning - sleep till noon.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

I have now tried PMS and find it excellent so far!

Nice;

I thought I should mention it here in case others, enthused by this thread, >> fall at the first hurdle because of it!

I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC, something I've recently looked into
from a slightly different angle (whistle players), and the basics seem
delightfully simple!

Yes, it's definitely reminiscent of ABC notation, which I played around
with quite a bit at one point. Albeit a cross between ABC and LaTeX!
:-p

Just for me,

I'm pleased to see it's based on ABC

Tell you about the source, or the syntax used by !PMS ?

The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able
to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just
an idea...

Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...

--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 7 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able
to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just
an idea...

It would be possible to construct a 'lookup' StrongHelp manual indexed
by keyword, but I'm not sure how useful that would be - the various
keywords are already in the index of the PDF manual. The problem for me
is in finding *which* keyword/option setting makes it possible to do
which task....

I suppose StrongHelp would make it possible to have various sub-pages
included under multiple different headings, so that you could include
all the different keywords controlling slurs in their various different categories, for example, and then have a master page on 'slurs' that
includes all that information in the same place. But turning a two-hundred-page manual into a StrongHelp file organised along different
lines would be a massive job, and not one I feel inclined to embark
upon for software I use only about once a year. I did do that once,
for GNU awk about twenty years ago, and when it came to trying to update
my version with the new features/global variables introduced by a recent
later port of the program, I'm afraid I lost enthusiasm less than
halfway through. :-(

Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...

Sent.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

We will release no software before its time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

I think half the problem is the manual, or at least the PostScript
version of it - I simply can't *find* features because the relevant data
is spread across multiple sections.

[snip]

You will be able to write a hints_tips manual, Rhapsody has one

I could theoretically write an article for Archive, like the one I did
on constructing a pronunciation dictionary for the modern eSpeak, but
I'm not sure that there is any point in writing about the obscure
features of a program (PMS) that most readers won't use or even have
heard of. You would need to write a whole series of articles starting
from the basics before working up to the complexities - and I don't have
the energy to do that.


[snip]

The good news is that the first violins were so impressed by my
rewritten 'readable' second violin part that they want me to do them one
as well - I said it would be relatively easy, because it is almost identical in terms of rhythm and ornament to the second violin part, and
I assumed it would just be a matter of plugging different note values
into a copy of the stave I'd already constructed.

Can you send me the !Rhapsody version and the !PMS version in PDF or Draw
to compare, please.

Unfortunately there isn't any Rhapsody version - I had to make a
decision as to which program I was going to use in order to avoid
duplicating effort, and I started off in PMS.



--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

We are the knights who say "NI!"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 7 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

The source is entirely in C and well documented, I think we should be able >> to retrieve syntax information from it to make a StongEd manual, it's just >> an idea...

It would be possible to construct a 'lookup' StrongHelp manual indexed
by keyword, but I'm not sure how useful that would be - the various
keywords are already in the index of the PDF manual. The problem for me
is in finding *which* keyword/option setting makes it possible to do
which task....

I've been thinking about StrongEd, and I'm going to do some testing ( C library). But for PMS I think the syntax is in the source.

I suppose StrongHelp would make it possible to have various sub-pages included under multiple different headings, so that you could include
all the different keywords controlling slurs in their various different categories, for example, and then have a master page on 'slurs' that
includes all that information in the same place. But turning a two-hundred-page manual into a StrongHelp file organised along different lines would be a massive job, and not one I feel inclined to embark
upon for software I use only about once a year. I did do that once,
for GNU awk about twenty years ago, and when it came to trying to update
my version with the new features/global variables introduced by a recent later port of the program, I'm afraid I lost enthusiasm less than
halfway through. :-(

Some time ago I contacted Rick Griffin and he modified his version of
MakeHelp to work with Python 3.8 , thanks to him.
If you want an overview look at the StrongEd C99 manual.
The link on the manual no longer works, but I can provide it.

Good idea to have a PMS mode with StrongEd, I'm interested...

Sent.

Merci
I would have to little test with PMS on a few terms from the PDF file and
the source.

--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <[email protected]> wrote:

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Thanks to Chris I successfully downloaded this and have started using it.

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned,
making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

I am hoping that someone has either (unlikely) a version with the even
pages as well, or (more likely) a paper version which they could scan or photograph the even pages for me so that I could reconstruct a useable
manual.

I have the full PMW manual, wich is comprehensive, but is post-RISC OS
version, so does not address the particular specifics of the RISC OS
version pre-dating this release.

If we (someone?) could help provide a full version, the PlingStore version could be updated.

And I could learn about the mysteries of the MIDI output!

My address is invalid here, but we could address that with a later post if anyone posts that they can help.

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In article <6550ca81$0$7528$[email protected]>,
John Williams (News) <[email protected]> wrote:

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned, making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

I had assumed that all releases would be the same, but it appears that Harriet's version has both odd and even pages, and she has kindly sent it
to me.

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <[email protected]> wrote:

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

Thanks to Chris I successfully downloaded this and have started using it.

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned, making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

That's certainly odd; the version I have is *not* a scanned copy but a
PDF generated directly out of the original document (or at least, it
contains text and not JPEG images of the pages), and it very definitely
has both left- and right-hand pages present...

Is this the "RISC OS PMS/pdf" file?


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Those who can't write, write manuals.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <6550ca81$0$7528$[email protected]>,
John Williams (News) <[email protected]> wrote:

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
scanned

It turns out that a combination of my stupidity, thinking about too many
things at once, and using an unfamiliar PDF reader have led to me being
totally in error over this.

I apologise to anyone whose time I have wasted.

I shall reflect more carefully in future before posting nonsense!

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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In message <6550d4e7$0$3001$[email protected]>
"John Williams (News)" <[email protected]> wrote:

In article <6550ca81$0$7528$[email protected]>,
John Williams (News) <[email protected]> wrote:

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the
paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been
scanned, making it rather difficult to follow. One could even say "odd"!

I had assumed that all releases would be the same, but it appears that Harriet's version has both odd and even pages, and she has kindly sent it
to me.

John, I have just downloaded PMS361 from PlingStore, and within the Manual folder are two PMW manual's plus the QercusArticle.

The RISC OS PMS/pdf manual does have odd and even pages (just remember to
widen the PDF window or scroll the bottom bar to see the pages. This
manual seems to be a simplified manual.

The PMW/pdf file is a full manual with a Contents at the front etc.
(totalling 213 pages)



--
Chris Hughes

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
John Williams (News) wrote:

In article <6550ca81$0$7528$[email protected]>,
John Williams (News) <[email protected]> wrote:

Unfortunately this version, in common with the previous version 1.60, has
a RISC OS-directed file in its Manual directory which is a scan of the paper manual for the RISC OS version, but only the RH pages have been scanned

It turns out that a combination of my stupidity, thinking about too many things at once, and using an unfamiliar PDF reader have led to me being totally in error over this.

I did wonder about that, but assumed that since you were missing the *left-hand* pages it couldn't be a case of not having opened the window
to show the full spread...!

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 12 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Chris Hughes wrote:


[snip]

John, I have just downloaded PMS361 from PlingStore, and within the Manual folder are two PMW manual's plus the QercusArticle.

The RISC OS PMS/pdf manual does have odd and even pages (just remember to widen the PDF window or scroll the bottom bar to see the pages. This
manual seems to be a simplified manual.

The PMW/pdf file is a full manual with a Contents at the front etc. (totalling 213 pages)

The RISC OS manual deals with how to use the PMS desktop application,
which gives you an interactive graphical interface to things that the
Linux version can only handle by supplying additional arguments on the
command line, or can't handle at all, like live playback as opposed to
saving out MIDI files.

The final chapter also explains that the PostScript files saved out by
!PMS don't actually display properly unless you prepend a copy of the
PMS-Music fonts to them, a little detail which tripped me up!

The main 'PMW' manual deals with how to use the command-line version
from Linux, and the RISC OS instructions are to ignore the first four
chapters of this, since they are replaced by the RISC OS-specific
instructions in the separate manual. :-)


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Hypocrisy is underrated.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <6550ca81$0$7528$[email protected]>
"John Williams (News)" <[email protected]> wrote:

In article <54b127ff5a.chris@mytardis>,
Chris Hughes <[email protected]> wrote:

PMS v3.61 is available from PlingStore

And I could learn about the mysteries of the MIDI output!

Listening to a PMS score in MIDI is possible with the RISC OS version.

1) Download Synth Module, a standalone MIDI synthesiser (Pete Everret) http://www.forever.onmypc.net/

Module to load to listen to Maestro, PMS and Rhapsody, very good.

2) Add MIDI instructions to PMS script
� ex-1: (for your Snowman score)
midichannel 1 "violin"
1 is the channel (16 possible)
violin instrument name
� ex-2: Viola + piano
midichannel 1 "viola"
midichannel 2 "piano" 2-3

The numbers 2 and 3 correspond to the staves which must use this channel, therefore those of the piano.
If this number is not specified this will be the first stave.

Note: channel 10 is reserved for percussion.
Each note represents a different instrument, you must specify channel 10 , stave number and the note (number or name).
� ex-3 from manual
midichannel 10 5 "#60"
midichannel 10 6 "triangle"

I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

Pete's module is GM compatible (standard: General MIDI), you can easily
find the list of instruments and percussions.


--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 13 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

[snip]

I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

Do you mean the Linux-only version?

The RISC OS version on PlingStore (3.61P) has a fully indexed manual....


--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Please all, and you will please none.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In message <[email protected]>
Harriet Bazley <[email protected]> wrote:

On 13 Nov 2023 as I do recall,
Jean-Michel wrote:

[snip]

I recommend downloading the latest version of PMS (5.21) because the
manual is indexed and this makes searching much easier.

Do you mean the Linux-only version?

The RISC OS version on PlingStore (3.61P) has a fully indexed manual....

Yes, but with the latest version 5.21 the links in the index pages work
with !PDF. This makes searching much easier.



--
Jean-Michel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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