• Re: Lost Forever Games

    From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Fri Jun 13 21:10:12 2025
    Spalls Hurgenson <[email protected]> wrote at 16:27 this Thursday (GMT):

    Game preservation is becoming increasingly popular; the restoration of
    old games, not only making them available for sale but ensuring they
    can be played on modern hardware. It's been GOG's modus operandi for a
    while, but other publishers are increasingly realizing that it's a potentially profitable way to make money off their back-catalog. It's
    good for gamers too; there are some ancient classics that haven't been
    seen by gamers in decades, and deserve another chance to shine.

    But it occurred to me --whilst thumbing through the back pages of an
    old copy of "Computer Gaming World"-- that there is one genre of games
    that will /never/ be preserved and, in fact, seems likely to be
    forgotten forever. And that's the world of PBM/PBEM games.

    Now, while it is likely some of the regulars here at least know about
    these games, a lot of modern games might have no idea what those
    initials even mean! (It stands for "Play By Mail / Play By E-Mail).
    Before the Internet, it was one of the only ways to play multiplayer
    games without physically lugging your Commodore-64 to your neighbor's
    house and using a null-modem cable, or squeezing two or more onto a
    computer keyboard. With a PBM/PBEM, you'd get a status update of the
    game (usual a photocopy of the 'game board') and a selection of moves
    you could make in your turn. You'd fill out the appropriate form, pop
    it in an envelope, and send it off to the bloke running the game. Said central dispatcher would enter your moves into his computer, then send
    the next player an updated copy of the game status, and the game
    proceed round-robin through each player until the turn was complete.

    It was slow, it low-fidelity, often arbitrary in options and results,
    and it often made Infocom games look impressive with their visual
    fidelity. But if you wanted to play against a group of people from
    around the world, it was usually your only alternative. The games were comparatively cheap too. Sure you might find similar options with a
    BBS Door game, or if you were in university... but the rates for
    either of those in the 80s and early 90s could be exorbitant! PBM/PBEM
    games were cheap in comparison (although still not THAT inexpensive.
    Rates of $5 for initial set-up and $2 per turn were common).

    Because they relied on proprietary software --often run by a single individual-- there was no wide-spread distribution of the game code.
    When the companies running them went belly-up (even by the early 90s
    they were a dying breed) no attempt was made to preserve the code.
    Even if there was, these games often didn't run on home micros, but
    ran concurrently with other games on re-purposed PDPs and other old mainframes. And even if they could be preserved, they aren't something
    you could easily run on your own. So a lot of the games are just gone forever.

    (Technically, the PBM/PBEM genre isn't completely dead*;
    in fact some modern games still include a PBEM option!
    But all those services advertised in the back pages of
    gamer magazines are lost)


    Which is a shame because --while they weren't very good-- they were a
    part of gaming history that deserves to be remembered, and it seems a
    shame they've been tossed into the dustbin and forgotten.

    I tried PBM games a couple of times; one was a role-playing game of
    some sort, another was a strategy title. I didn't stick very long with
    it because it was just so limited in options and the responses were so
    trite and arcane that it didn't seem worth the cost. Sure, the idea of multiplayer gaming was neat, but since you weren't really interacting
    with the other players it didn't feel much different than playing
    against the computer. Maybe some PBM games were better, but the ones I experienced quickly put me off the concept.

    Do you remember PBM games? Did you ever try one of the services? Did
    you RUN one? Is there any hope, you think, of preserving the software
    from this lost era of gaming?









    * here's a list of active games
    https://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/pbm_list/all4.html


    Hey, thanks for the list!

    As for actually playing them, I tried to play some PBEM Chess with a
    friend a few months ago, but it kinda fell apart since neither of us
    were good at chess lol.

    also i think i played one on ham radio once?

    The idea still fascinates me though, it has the same kind of appeal as
    TTRPGS. Being able to control and play a whole videogame by just writing
    some words down and sending them off to a gamemaster is such a cool
    idea, and I really wish it caught on more.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Sat Jun 14 08:40:06 2025
    On 12/06/2025 17:27, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    But it occurred to me --whilst thumbing through the back pages of an
    old copy of "Computer Gaming World"-- that there is one genre of games
    that will/never/ be preserved and, in fact, seems likely to be
    forgotten forever. And that's the world of PBM/PBEM games.

    The only one I've played was It's A crime (I believe it's still going)
    in the mod 80's. It was fun but as my source of income was my paper
    round I gave it up as it was just too expensive.

    I also have an sorta one as we used to play Diplomacy at work with two,
    or maybe three, turns a week. That was really good fun although we did
    have one player that got a bit upset. I'd say that was of their own
    making. The game is called Diplomacy for a reason so if you point blank
    refuse to try and form alliances, and you're Austro-Hungary, then you
    really shouldn't expect to last very long and they didn't.

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  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Wed Jun 18 06:00:04 2025
    Spalls Hurgenson <[email protected]> wrote at 00:20 this Saturday (GMT):
    On Fri, 13 Jun 2025 21:10:12 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    also i think i played one on ham radio once?

    Play-by-Ham-radio? I think you just won the Internet today with that
    idea.

    It was basically just using the PBM rules anyway.

    The idea still fascinates me though, it has the same kind of appeal as >>TTRPGS. Being able to control and play a whole videogame by just writing >>some words down and sending them off to a gamemaster is such a cool
    idea, and I really wish it caught on more.

    Waaaay way way back, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth and
    bandwith was measured in characters-per-second, our tabletop group did something similar. Separated by Life-Events for nearly a year, we kept
    gaming through email, passing orders over a slow connection. Well, I
    say "email"; really it was just uploading a text file telling me (and
    the other players) what they were doing, and my responding (in
    excessively long prose, naturally!) the result of those actions. The
    players had pretty much freedom to do anything they wanted (or at
    least try), and since we'd (mostly) split-the-party, they usually
    didn't have to wait to see what the other players were doing (I did
    encourage them to email amongst themselves behind my back, though).

    Alas, I've lost most of the transcripts from those adventures over the years... which is a shame, because I remember some pretty good writing
    in those dialogues (mostly from the players, of course. My responses
    were notable only for their length ;-)

    Sounds like a fun way to work around real life barriers :D

    My experience with "proper" PBM games weren't anything like that. The
    RPG I remember playing basically gave me a (very) brief description of
    the location (including X-Y coordinates... so I could map where I was,
    I guess?) and a handful of commands I could pick from. It was so
    barebones and limited that it made "Zork" look futuristic in
    comparison. Looking back, I'm guessing the software was some primitive
    MUD and the admin just plugged my commands into the computer and
    printed out its response. In the few turns I played, I never met
    another player. I wasn't impressed and didn't stay with the game very
    long. I don't know if that was a typical experience for PBMs
    computer-RPGs of the time or if I just picked a really awful one, but
    it didn't encourage me to go looking for alternatives.


    Surely, with modern technology, someone is running one that is super
    high quality (hopefully)
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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  • From Rin Stowleigh@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Jun 18 20:21:53 2025
    On Wed, 18 Jun 2025 11:51:32 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <[email protected]> wrote:

    The advantage to this method was you didn't have to remain connected
    through an entire match (as any 4X player will tell you, a campaign
    can take a /long/ time to finish). You also aren't reliant on a
    third-party server to connect; all the communication is done by email
    (heck, if you really wanted you could put the file on a floppy and
    send it back and forth by postal mail!). But it was slooow.

    I wonder if there are any modern games still offering PBEM support.

    If there are, they were developed by a labotomized mongoloid and are
    therefore not worth playing :)

    If someone did want to create an agonizingly long, drawn out and
    pointless multiplayer experience like that these days, there are a lot
    of ways to accomodate asynchronous turn-based play online that
    wouldn't expect someone to send files back and forth via e-mail.

    It's a little like saying "are there any cities in the USA that don't
    offer drinking water, but alternatively offer solutions for filtering
    their own sewage as a way to promote challenge of fundamental human
    coping skills?"

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Thu Jun 19 09:06:05 2025
    On 18/06/2025 16:51, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

    Side note: the other day I learned that the classic 4X strategy game,
    "Alpha Centauri" still supported PBEM gaming. You'd play a turn, then
    email a special file to your friend, who would import the file into
    his game to see what you did, and then react accordingly and send you
    back a new file.

    The advantage to this method was you didn't have to remain connected
    through an entire match (as any 4X player will tell you, a campaign
    can take a /long/ time to finish). You also aren't reliant on a
    third-party server to connect; all the communication is done by email
    (heck, if you really wanted you could put the file on a floppy and
    send it back and forth by postal mail!). But it was slooow.

    I wonder if there are any modern games still offering PBEM support.


    The Field of Glory II games do have a PBEM option but it's more
    integrated into the game and uses Slitherine's servers to exchange the 'e-mails' for each turn.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Fri Jun 20 10:13:15 2025
    On 19/06/2025 16:01, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:06:05 +0100, JAB <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 18/06/2025 16:51, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

    I wonder if there are any modern games still offering PBEM support.

    The Field of Glory II games do have a PBEM option but it's more
    integrated into the game and uses Slitherine's servers to exchange the
    'e-mails' for each turn.

    I don't know why, but that makes me weirdly happy that such an old
    game-play model is still supported. I'm halfway tempted to install the
    game just to try it out.

    It's a shame it relies on Slitherine's servers though, although I like
    how its integrated the capabilities into the game itself. That was
    always one issue I had with other PBEM games. You always had to drop
    out of the game to use your email client to send the save-file rather
    than their integrating the feature into the game itself (preferably
    allowing you to specify your own mail-server information).


    PBEM style like multiplayer does make sense as it's been a staple of
    wargames for many years. Standing around a table watching you opponent
    make their moves is fine as it's both a social activity and both players
    get to roll some dice. Siting on a PC doing nothing for five to ten
    minutes not so much fun. The other advantage, wargaming is quite niche
    so the last thing you want to do is shrink the available playerbase even
    more.

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Sat Jun 21 08:58:06 2025
    On 19/06/2025 16:01, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:06:05 +0100, JAB <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 18/06/2025 16:51, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

    I wonder if there are any modern games still offering PBEM support.

    The Field of Glory II games do have a PBEM option but it's more
    integrated into the game and uses Slitherine's servers to exchange the
    'e-mails' for each turn.

    I don't know why, but that makes me weirdly happy that such an old
    game-play model is still supported. I'm halfway tempted to install the
    game just to try it out.

    For old school features try Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear. That
    has the option of a dice cam. As its name suggests you get a dice cup,
    position your camera over it and then roll the dice.

    If you want the blend of modern and new then you can get physical dice
    (with LED's of course) that know what number was rolled and then
    transfer that to a VTT. They are stupidly expensive and there's been
    concerns raised about how unbiased they are compared to a normal die.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to JAB on Sat Jun 21 09:44:45 2025
    On 6/21/2025 12:58 AM, JAB wrote:
    On 19/06/2025 16:01, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:06:05 +0100, JAB <[email protected]> wrote:
    On 18/06/2025 16:51, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

    I wonder if there are any modern games still offering PBEM support.

    The Field of Glory II games do have a PBEM option but it's more
    integrated into the game and uses Slitherine's servers to exchange the
    'e-mails' for each turn.

    I don't know why, but that makes me weirdly happy that such an old
    game-play model is still supported. I'm halfway tempted to install the
    game just to try it out.

    For old school features try Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear. That
    has the option of a dice cam. As its name suggests you get a dice cup, position your camera over it and then roll the dice.

    If you want the blend of modern and new then you can get physical dice
    (with LED's of course) that know what number was rolled and then
    transfer that to a VTT. They are stupidly expensive and there's been
    concerns raised about how unbiased they are compared to a normal die.

    Ask anyone who played tabletop games and they will tell you that all
    dice are biased against the player(s). ;)

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

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  • From JAB@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Sat Jun 21 23:19:54 2025
    On 21/06/2025 22:51, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    Going back a step, when we briefly tried playing by 'email' (as I
    described in an earlier post in this thread), one of my concerns was
    how to handle die rolls. I was worried the players would feel I was
    fudging the rolls to favor 'my' preffered outcomes and was considering
    all sorts of alternatives which would let them see the rolls were
    properly randomized. But one player put a stop to all that by telling
    me that they trusted me to be fair, which I thought quite endearing.
    But why else play with somebody else if you don't have even that
    modicum of trust? That's why the "die roll scanner" described above
    strikes me as slightly offensive.

    The "die roll scanner" is for a single player game to give you more of
    the table top feel.

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