I am looking - now that Pi's seem back in stock - to complete a long
term project, which is an interface to my home entertainments system.

The basic spec is the ability to drive an HD and possibly 4K
(obsolescent TV?) screen and audio via HDMI at full speed, from sources
that will be H264 encoded - from stored videos and off the internet - as
well as live TV from a TVheadend machine that I have only been able to
coax into using Vorbis/VP8 .

Firefox is the browser of choice.

Essentially this is all the machine will have to run, and my concern is
that the video will not be able to either display, or display at
broadcast speed, the Vorbis/VP8 streams from Tvheadend.

An internet search suggests its possible to do the decode, but there may
be gotchas, either in terms of building in support for webm, or in terms
of raw hardware speed.

Advice and experience welcomed.
If all else fails I have an old intel based chassis that would work, but
its a power hungry brute

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am looking - now that Pi's seem back in stock - to complete a long
term project, which is an interface to my home entertainments system.

The basic spec is the ability to drive an HD and possibly 4K
(obsolescent TV?) screen and audio via HDMI at full speed, from sources
that will be H264 encoded - from stored videos and off the internet - as
well as live TV from a TVheadend machine that I have only been able to
coax into using Vorbis/VP8 .

Firefox is the browser of choice.

Essentially this is all the machine will have to run, and my concern is
that the video will not be able to either display, or display at
broadcast speed, the Vorbis/VP8 streams from Tvheadend.

An internet search suggests its possible to do the decode, but there may
be gotchas, either in terms of building in support for webm, or in terms
of raw hardware speed.

Advice and experience welcomed.
If all else fails I have an old intel based chassis that would work, but
its a power hungry brute

based on the need for video playback @4k I would suggest the Pi4B as being
the best contender.
the 2mb model might suffice but I generally plump for the 4mb if available
but with my projects that is massive overkill.
a model 3 might do it but why take the chance?




--
A man said to the Universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the Universe,
"the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:

Firefox is the browser of choice.

So, no hardware acceleration because that's only available on their own
patched version of Chromium. This means that anything other than a Pi4 will struggle greatly with HD video in the browser and probably give a slideshow
at best for 4k.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:

Advice and experience welcomed.
If all else fails I have an old intel based chassis that would work, but
its a power hungry brute

If a Pi won't cut it, look at tiny ex-corporate x86 desktops: https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimicro-home-lab-revolution/

Can often be had on ebay for roughly the price of a Pi, broadly similar power consumption.

Theo

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On 14/03/2023 14:39, A. Dumas wrote:

The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:

Firefox is the browser of choice.

So, no hardware acceleration because that's only available on their own patched version of Chromium. This means that anything other than a Pi4 will struggle greatly with HD video in the browser and probably give a slideshow at best for 4k.

I guess I COULD rewrite the interface for chromium...

4B sounds like a choice then

--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 3/14/23 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am looking - now that Pi's seem back in stock - to complete a long
term project, which is an interface to my home  entertainments system.

The basic spec is the ability to drive an HD and possibly 4K
(obsolescent TV?) screen and audio via HDMI at full speed, from sources
that will be H264 encoded - from stored videos and off the internet - as
well as live TV from a TVheadend machine that I have only been able to
coax into using Vorbis/VP8 .

Firefox is the browser of choice.

Essentially this is all the machine will have to run, and my concern is
that the video will not be able to either display, or display at
broadcast speed, the Vorbis/VP8 streams from Tvheadend.

An internet search suggests its possible to do the decode, but there may
be gotchas, either in terms of building in support for webm, or in terms
of raw hardware speed.

Advice and experience welcomed.
If all else fails I have an old intel based chassis that would work, but
its a power hungry brute

I tested my rPi4, as an HTPC, when I first got it, just after they came
out. From memory, it could just about handle HD 1080p H264 playback,
using KODI, and maybe VLC under Raspbian. At that time, hardware
acceleration didn't work in Chromium, without which any YouTube playback
was unwatchable. All in all, my rPi4 lasted a couple of days as an HTPC
before it was repurposed as a NAS/headless server. Browser acceleration
may now have made it useable, just, but I doubt it. My initial
impression was so bad, I have never worked up any enthusiasm to re-test.

I have been using an Orange Pi 5 as an HTPC for 3 months. It is very
useable, generally as a PC as well as just an HTPC, but the graphics
drivers are buggy. It might crash/freeze once a day, but reboots in 20
seconds, so this is tolerable. Even without hardware acceleration, it
might be ok for H264

The performance of the Orange Pi 5 is great, it is reported to work fine
at 4k, I haven't tested it at 4K, but it plays HVEC, H265 video
flawlessly at 2560x1440, using only a few % cpu, 2% cpu at 1080p. It
will actually also play AV1 video at 2560x1440, which my Intel Core i5
4570S won't. (Although a recent driver update (yesterday) has broken
this on the oPi5 (Panfork/Mesa GPU Drivers broken, The RK Blob driver
still works for AV1). I wouldn't pay over £100 for the 8GB oPi5, other
than as a toy. In terms of power efficiency, it idles at 2-3 watts.

Last week, I bought my mum a Beelink U95 based on Win11/Intel N5105 for
her HTPC, it was £230, but it just works.

Why do you coax TVHeadEnd to do anything beyond forwarding TV encoded
streams as it receives them?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-03-14, alister <[email protected]> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I am looking - now that Pi's seem back in stock - to complete a long
term project, which is an interface to my home entertainments system.

The basic spec is the ability to drive an HD and possibly 4K
(obsolescent TV?) screen and audio via HDMI at full speed, from sources
that will be H264 encoded - from stored videos and off the internet - as
well as live TV from a TVheadend machine that I have only been able to
coax into using Vorbis/VP8 .

Firefox is the browser of choice.

Essentially this is all the machine will have to run, and my concern is
that the video will not be able to either display, or display at
broadcast speed, the Vorbis/VP8 streams from Tvheadend.

An internet search suggests its possible to do the decode, but there may
be gotchas, either in terms of building in support for webm, or in terms
of raw hardware speed.

Advice and experience welcomed.
If all else fails I have an old intel based chassis that would work, but
its a power hungry brute

based on the need for video playback @4k I would suggest the Pi4B as being the best contender.
the 2mb model might suffice but I generally plump for the 4mb if available but with my projects that is massive overkill.
a model 3 might do it but why take the chance?

Just for accuracy's sake, I'd suggest

s/mb/GB/g

Around 2-4MB of RAM is what my employer's VAX 11/750 had around
1980-1983.

--
Robert Riches
[email protected]
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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Pancho wrote:

I tested my rPi4, as an HTPC,  when I first got it, just after they came out. From memory, it could just about handle HD 1080p H264 playback,
using KODI

I used a Pi3B with KODI for a while, and don't remember it struggling to
handle HD (DVB-S2 tuner in another PC).

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Am 14.03.2023 um 12:15 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:

I am looking - now that Pi's seem back in stock - to complete a long
term project, which is an interface to my home entertainments
system.

I always bought the fastest computer I could afford. Never went wrong.

So I own a Raspi 400.

FW

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On 14/03/2023 23:29, Pancho wrote:

Why do you coax TVHeadEnd to do anything beyond forwarding TV encoded
streams as it receives them?

I have no idea. It was the only format that actually worked.

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

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On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:03:15 +0000) it happened Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

Pancho wrote:

I tested my rPi4, as an HTPC,  when I first got it, just after they came
out. From memory, it could just about handle HD 1080p H264 playback,
using KODI

I used a Pi3B with KODI for a while, and don't remember it struggling to >handle HD (DVB-S2 tuner in another PC).

On my Pi4 8GB this 1920x1080 at 50 fps plays slow with mplayer *ecorded here from DVB-T2 terrestrial

raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/dvb_t2 # mediainfo rolling_stones_world_tour_pids_filtered.mts
General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : rolling_stones_world_tour_pids_filtered.mts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 3.15 GiB
Duration : 1 h 45 min
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 4 296 kb/s
FileExtension_Invalid : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID : 256 (0x100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : HEVC
Format/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile : [email protected]@Main
Codec ID : 36
Duration : 1 h 45 min
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 0)
Bit depth : 8 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709



However
1280x720 @ 50 fps from DVB-S2 satellite plays OK
raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/satellite # mediainfo cocaine.ts
General
ID : 1010 (0x3F2)
Complete name : cocaine.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 4.00 GiB
Duration : 42 min 16 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 13.5 Mb/s

Video
ID : 6710 (0x1A36)
Menu ID : 11170 (0x2BA2)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4
Format settings : CABAC / 6 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 6 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 42 min 15 s
Bit rate : 11.8 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color spa

For satellite the format can be any size
Some of the Astra2 channels have old mucic (seventies eighties)
and have a much smaller format, this plays fine with mplayer full screen on my 1920x1080 HDMI monitor:

raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/satellite # mediainfo mississippi.ts
General
ID : 2097 (0x831)
Complete name : mississippi.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 52.1 MiB
Duration : 4 min 10 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 745 kb/s

Video
ID : 707 (0x2C3)
Menu ID : 52107 (0xCB8B)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=18
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 4 min 9 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 529 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 15.0 Mb/s
Width : 544 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.195

I have no idea if chrome will play online videos like that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 15/03/2023 10:29, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:03:15 +0000) it happened Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

Pancho wrote:

I tested my rPi4, as an HTPC,  when I first got it, just after they came >>> out. From memory, it could just about handle HD 1080p H264 playback,
using KODI

I used a Pi3B with KODI for a while, and don't remember it struggling to
handle HD (DVB-S2 tuner in another PC).

On my Pi4 8GB this 1920x1080 at 50 fps plays slow with mplayer *ecorded here from DVB-T2 terrestrial

raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/dvb_t2 # mediainfo rolling_stones_world_tour_pids_filtered.mts
General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : rolling_stones_world_tour_pids_filtered.mts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 3.15 GiB
Duration : 1 h 45 min
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 4 296 kb/s
FileExtension_Invalid : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID : 256 (0x100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : HEVC
Format/Info : High Efficiency Video Coding Format profile : [email protected]@Main
Codec ID : 36
Duration : 1 h 45 min
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 (Type 0)
Bit depth : 8 bits
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

However
1280x720 @ 50 fps from DVB-S2 satellite plays OK
raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/satellite # mediainfo cocaine.ts
General
ID : 1010 (0x3F2)
Complete name : cocaine.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 4.00 GiB
Duration : 42 min 16 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 13.5 Mb/s

Video
ID : 6710 (0x1A36)
Menu ID : 11170 (0x2BA2)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4
Format settings : CABAC / 6 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 6 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 42 min 15 s
Bit rate : 11.8 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color spa

For satellite the format can be any size
Some of the Astra2 channels have old mucic (seventies eighties)
and have a much smaller format, this plays fine with mplayer full screen on my 1920x1080 HDMI monitor:

raspberrypi: /mnt/sda2/video/satellite # mediainfo mississippi.ts
General
ID : 2097 (0x831)
Complete name : mississippi.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 52.1 MiB
Duration : 4 min 10 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 745 kb/s

Video
ID : 707 (0x2C3)
Menu ID : 52107 (0xCB8B)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=18
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 4 min 9 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 529 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 15.0 Mb/s
Width : 544 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.195

I have no idea if chrome will play online videos like that.

I think for the time being I will take my old celeron +Nvidia graphics
gas guzzler and prove the software on it and when Pis get more available
at sane prices, or I find a mini low energy pc, play with those

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

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On 15/03/2023 08:03, Andy Burns wrote:

Pancho wrote:

I tested my rPi4, as an HTPC,  when I first got it, just after they
came out. From memory, it could just about handle HD 1080p H264
playback, using KODI

I used a Pi3B with KODI for a while, and don't remember it struggling to handle HD (DVB-S2 tuner in another PC).

By chance, I actually have a Pi3B in front of me, PiOS, not KODI. Using
VLC it played 720p H264, surprisingly well, apart from the mouse cursor
got lost. It completely failed at 1080p H264 and HVEC.

The thing about KODI, is that the drivers, HW acceleration, are finely
tuned to work, it is possible 1080p might work. That's OK, but I
actually like having a proper desktop on my TV. PiOS doesn't all work by default, Chromium is not using HW acceleration, by default.

I would like to test the rPi4, but unfortunately it is busy running
various services that I find difficult to do without, even temporarily.

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Pancho wrote:

I would like to test the rPi4, but unfortunately it is busy running
various services that I find difficult to do without, even temporarily.

I only have the one Pi and it would be handy to have another couple for experiments, but not at silly prices. In a way I tend to think the Pi4
has got too powerful for its original mission, if it needs active
cooling ...

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Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

In a way I tend to think the Pi4
has got too powerful for its original mission, if it needs active
cooling ...

It used to be bad at introduction but they worked hard on the firmware
(years ago) so now my always-on, sometimes actively used Pi 4 works
perfectly fine with a passive cooling alu case. No thermal throttling.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-03-15, Jan Panteltje <[email protected]d> wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:18:08 -0000 (UTC)) it happened A. Dumas
<[email protected]d> wrote in <tusr40$v2gf$[email protected]>:

Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

In a way I tend to think the Pi4
has got too powerful for its original mission, if it needs active
cooling ...

It used to be bad at introduction but they worked hard on the firmware >>(years ago) so now my always-on, sometimes actively used Pi 4 works >>perfectly fine with a passive cooling alu case. No thermal throttling.

I have a PI4 4 GB, it runs 24/7 recording many things, it has a fan and alu case.
temp=44 degrees C now,

And a Pi4 8 GB that I use for web browsing and posting (this) in the original plastic housing
temp=68.6 degrees C now with hardly any load....
I have seen it throttling, I leave the plastic lid half open, the chips have also small heatsinks,

IIRC throttling starts at about 70 C

So, for serious things a fan is simply needed. However a closed alu
case cuts of WiFi for those that need it (I do not use WiFi for
security reasons).

I use a passive Aluminium Armour - Heatsink Case for Raspberry[1], and my
24x7 Pi4's are not further encased, to ensure a reasonable air flow over
the Aluminium Armour. They don't tend to have huge CPU loads, doing
server type stuff. I use Pi4's for the USB3 and true gigabit ethernet.

You don't always need a fan for a Pi4.

Jim

[1] https://thepihut.com/products/aluminium-armour-heatsink-case-for-raspberry-pi-4
No affiliation with PiHut just a satisfied customer.

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On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:18:08 -0000 (UTC)) it happened A. Dumas <[email protected]d> wrote in <tusr40$v2gf$[email protected]>:

Andy Burns <[email protected]> wrote:

In a way I tend to think the Pi4
has got too powerful for its original mission, if it needs active
cooling ...

It used to be bad at introduction but they worked hard on the firmware
(years ago) so now my always-on, sometimes actively used Pi 4 works
perfectly fine with a passive cooling alu case. No thermal throttling.

I have a PI4 4 GB, it runs 24/7 recording many things, it has a fan and alu case.
temp=44 degrees C now,

And a Pi4 8 GB that I use for web browsing and posting (this) in the original plastic housing
temp=68.6 degrees C now with hardly any load....
I have seen it throttling, I leave the plastic lid half open, the chips have also small heatsinks,

IIRC throttling starts at about 70 C

So, for serious things a fan is simply needed.
However a closed alu case cuts of WiFi for those that need it (I do not use WiFi for security reasons).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Jan Panteltje <[email protected]d> wrote:

IIRC throttling starts at about 70 C

80

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On a sunny day (Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:05:05 -0000 (UTC)) it happened A. Dumas <[email protected]d> wrote in <tut1ch$106rt$[email protected]>:

Jan Panteltje <[email protected]d> wrote:

IIRC throttling starts at about 70 C

80

OK thanks
I did play with it a while back and there is a setting to set the
throttle point.
You can also monitor clock speed
I used google at that time to find how to set it and measure it...
forgotten, should have made a note :-)

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On 15/03/2023 15:19, Andy Burns wrote:

Pancho wrote:

I would like to test the rPi4, but unfortunately it is busy running
various services that I find difficult to do without, even temporarily.

I only have the one Pi and it would be handy to have another couple for experiments, but not at silly prices.

I thought it would be handy to have a spare rPi3B, so I bought one, a
couple of weeks after that the massively superior rPi4 was released :-(.

I probably should have bought another rPi4, but Iv'e been putting it
off, waiting for the rPi5. Maybe the trick is to buy a backup as soon as
it becomes clear the current version is good.

  In a way I tend to think the Pi4
has got too powerful for its original mission, if it needs active
cooling ...

Passive cooling is good enough.

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Geekworm-Raspberry-Aluminum-Passive-Dissaption/dp/B07ZVJDRF3>

Normal, CPU at 41 C. CPU at constant 15% from CCTV recorder.

Stress test for 3 hours using

$ stress-ng --cpu 4

Final temps
CPU 61 C
Case 43 C
Ambient 14 C

CPU temperature 60 C was reached in approximately 20 minutes.

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