• ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

    From Tim Riker@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 15:39:27 2022
    I dug out my Apple //e Enhanced, dual floppy, Super Serial Card, green monitor. I wanted to see if I could connect it to my Raspberry Pi. I installed ADTPro on the Pi

    https://github.com/ADTPro/adtpro/releases

    I'm running it under openjdk-11 on Raspbian buster. It will transfer disks at 115200 over serial.

    I shutdown ADTPro, after making ProTERM 3.1 boot/program disks off:

    https://ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/communications/proterm/

    But they failed to boot. I upgraded the ProDOS on them, and got the terminal running. Connecting over 19200 8N1 works to an agetty started on the Pi.

    My question is: It does not look like hardware CTS/RTS is working. Should this work over a usb/serial adapter? Mine shows up as:

    Bus 001 Device 010: ID 1a86:7523 QinHeng Electronics HL-340 USB-Serial adapter

    I see a few comments around about ProTERM at 115200. Is this really possible?

    It would be nice if I didn't have to swap/flip disks in ProTERM. Is there a single disk version around that does not need swapping? smaller BASIC, or no BASIC, smaller newer ProDOS, etc.

    I'd like ProTERM to boot up in vt-100 and at the correct speed.

    There are other terminal types supported on the Pi, including "appleIIe" so I wonder if there is a better terminal to emulate. ProTERM vt-100 uses Solid-Apple+cursors to send vt100 cursors. It would be nice if it would send vt100 cursors by default when
    at the terminal, and still work with apple cursors in the menus.

    I understand ProTERM supports the Apple Mouse on an Apple //e. Does anyone know where to get or create a mouse for the //e?

    w3m in a login shell and I can browse the web from the //e. Right next to it is the Pi running emulationstation with the apple2 emulator loaded so I can run Lode Runner on the Pi.

    Is there a better place to discuss Apple//e topics than this group? A lot of spam in here.

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  • From Jerry Penner@21:1/5 to Tim Riker on Mon Jul 18 22:15:46 2022
    Tim Riker <[email protected]> writes:

    I dug out my Apple //e Enhanced, dual floppy, Super Serial Card, green monitor. I wanted
    to see if I could connect it to my Raspberry Pi. I installed ADTPro on the Pi

    https://github.com/ADTPro/adtpro/releases

    I'm running it under openjdk-11 on Raspbian buster. It will transfer disks at 115200 over serial.

    I shutdown ADTPro, after making ProTERM 3.1 boot/program disks off:

    https://ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/communications/proterm/

    But they failed to boot. I upgraded the ProDOS on them, and got the terminal running. Connecting over 19200 8N1 works to an agetty started on the Pi.

    My question is: It does not look like hardware CTS/RTS is working. Should this work over a
    usb/serial adapter? Mine shows up as:

    Bus 001 Device 010: ID 1a86:7523 QinHeng Electronics HL-340 USB-Serial adapter

    I see a few comments around about ProTERM at 115200. Is this really possible?

    It would be nice if I didn't have to swap/flip disks in ProTERM. Is there a single disk
    version around that does not need swapping? smaller BASIC, or no BASIC, smaller newer
    ProDOS, etc.

    I'd like ProTERM to boot up in vt-100 and at the correct speed.

    There are other terminal types supported on the Pi, including "appleIIe" so I wonder if
    there is a better terminal to emulate. ProTERM vt-100 uses Solid-Apple+cursors to send
    vt100 cursors. It would be nice if it would send vt100 cursors by default when at the
    terminal, and still work with apple cursors in the menus.

    I understand ProTERM supports the Apple Mouse on an Apple //e. Does anyone know where to get or create a mouse for the //e?

    I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
    card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
    and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.

    The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
    it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.

    I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does
    depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
    everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
    makes it much harder to use them.


    w3m in a login shell and I can browse the web from the //e. Right next to it is the Pi
    running emulationstation with the apple2 emulator loaded so I can run Lode Runner on the
    Pi.

    Is there a better place to discuss Apple//e topics than this group? A lot of spam in here.

    It's not so bad most of the time. Or maybe my kill/score-files are just keeping the junk out of my sight.

    --
    --
    Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

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  • From Tim Riker@21:1/5 to Jerry Penner on Mon Jul 18 22:42:10 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 10:15:36 PM UTC-6, Jerry Penner wrote:
    I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
    card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
    and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.

    The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
    it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.

    I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
    everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
    makes it much harder to use them.

    Thanks for the reply!

    If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference between moving right and moving left,
    for example?

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  • From D Finnigan@21:1/5 to Tim Riker on Tue Jul 19 20:07:27 2022
    Tim Riker wrote:

    If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference
    between
    moving right and moving left, for example?


    Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ. Check out Q/A # 33 here:
    https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg


    --
    ]DF$
    The New Apple II User's Guide:
    https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

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  • From Tim Riker@21:1/5 to D Finnigan on Tue Jul 19 13:15:40 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:07:29 PM UTC-6, D Finnigan wrote:
    Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ. Check out Q/A # 33 here:
    https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

    Ah! Site is down, but I found it on archive.org. I thought the connector on a //e would support a mouse, but his details indicate it does not. On a //e I would need a mouse card before I could have a mouse. Ah well. Thanks!

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  • From Jerry Penner@21:1/5 to Tim Riker on Tue Jul 19 21:46:56 2022
    Tim Riker <[email protected]> writes:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 10:15:36 PM UTC-6, Jerry Penner wrote:
    I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
    card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the
    phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
    and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they >> detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.

    The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
    it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple
    circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.

    I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does
    depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
    everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
    makes it much harder to use them.

    Thanks for the reply!

    If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to start? Is your
    converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what the Apple is expecting as a
    signal. How does it know the difference between moving right and moving left, for example?

    If you can find any mouse with a ball in it (I should have said that in
    my first reply), I would bet you can make it work.

    Optical mice typically have a single chip that talks USB, processes the
    image from a very small optical scanner, and produces the mouse-protocol
    data to the host computer via USB. I wouldn't say it's impossible to
    make this work, but it's way harder than what I did. It might be
    impossible, but I don't know. Someone might have more patience to try
    than I.

    To answer your question about how the Apple knows if you're moving left
    or right (or up or down), here is the AppleMouse connector's pinout:

    | Pin | Name | Description |
    |-----|----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | 1 | /MOUSEID | Active-low, disables hand-controller timer. Tie to ground for mouse. |
    | 2 | VCC +5V | Power. |
    | 3 | GND | Ground. |
    | 4 | XDIR | Mouse x-direction indicator. |
    | 5 | XMOVE | Mouse X-movement indicator. 90° out of phase w.r.t. XDIR. |
    | 6 | n.c. | Not connected. |
    | 7 | /MSWITCH | Mouse button, active-low. |
    | 8 | YDIR | Mouse Y-direction indicator. |
    | 9 | YMOVE | Mouse Y-movement interrupt. 90° out of phase w.r.t. YDIR. |

    Each axis has two pins: whether or not there is movement, and if there
    is, which direction it's going.

    The phototransistors on my mouse have two outputs for each axis,
    generating a four-valued signal (quadrature) and I just had to hook them
    up to the appropriate XDIR, XMOVE and YDIR, YMOVE pins. On my first
    try, the mouse moved up and down fine, but reversed from left to right,
    so I had the XDIR and XMOVE signals mixed up. All the signals are TTL
    (0-5V) levels.

    Another note about my mouse hack: at first I left the USB driver chip
    on the mouse circuit board. The mouse signals sent to the IIe were very erratic. I suspected that the chip was messing with the signals
    somehow. When I removed the chip entirely, it worked perfectly. I
    don't have an oscilloscope, otherwise I would have taken a look at the
    signal lines to see what that chip was doing to them.


    --
    Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

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  • From [email protected]@21:1/5 to D Finnigan on Wed Jul 20 15:57:49 2022
    D Finnigan <[email protected]> wrote:
    Tim Riker wrote:

    If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to
    start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what >> the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference
    between
    moving right and moving left, for example?


    Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ. Check out Q/A # 33 here:
    https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

    ...and of course the 19-year-old link within doesn't work, and the Internet Archive throws up an error when I ask it for
    http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz.

    I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
    come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus
    (and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was only needed for the IIe.

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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  • From Tim Riker@21:1/5 to [email protected] on Wed Jul 20 11:44:55 2022
    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 9:57:52 AM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
    I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
    come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus (and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was only needed for the IIe.

    Yes, it still requires a mouse card, which I don't have. I thought the connection on the //e supported a mouse or a joystick, but I was incorrect. One the //e it only supports a joystick.

    I don't have a mouse card, so I guess I won't be trying to build/acquire a mouse. :(

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  • From Jerry Penner@21:1/5 to Tim Riker on Wed Jul 20 21:58:20 2022
    Tim Riker <[email protected]> writes:

    On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 9:57:52 AM UTC-6, [email protected] wrote:
    I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
    come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus
    (and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was >> only needed for the IIe.

    Yes, it still requires a mouse card, which I don't have. I thought the connection on the
    //e supported a mouse or a joystick, but I was incorrect. One the //e it only supports a
    joystick.

    I don't have a mouse card, so I guess I won't be trying to build/acquire a mouse. :(

    Yes, that's a problem. :/

    A few years ago I acquired a //e with a mouse card, but no mouse. So
    last year I did surgery on a PC ball-mouse and made it work with the //e
    mouse card. I played a bit with DazzleDraw and the mouse, but I
    probably won't use it much anymore. Building it was more fun than
    playing with it. Sort of like Lego. ;)

    --
    --
    Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

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  • From Greg Wildman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 21 08:29:06 2022
    On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 15:57 +0000, [email protected]
    wrote:
    D Finnigan <[email protected]> wrote:
    Tim Riker wrote:

    If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier
    place to
    start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not
    sure what
    the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the
    difference
    between
    moving right and moving left, for example?


    Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple
    II FAQ.
    Check out Q/A # 33 here:
    https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

    ...and of course the 19-year-old link within doesn't work, and the
    Internet
    Archive throws up an error when I ask it for
    http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz.

    Quick search found this

    https://roger.geek.nz/mouse.html

    --
    Greg

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