https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
great difficulty seeing the point to them.
<https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
great difficulty seeing the point to them.
<https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
Somehow they managed to sell those transitions to their user and
developer base as steps forward. Microsoft has failed to do the same.
The reality here is that Microsoft should have had a compatibility
layer for most of the software ready on day one, much like Apple did.
Say what you will about Apple, but they provided users a decent bridge
from 9.2.2 to X, from IBM to Intel and from x86-64 to ARM.
On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing
that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
great difficulty seeing the point to them.
<https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
That's what is on the Snapdragon device.
"What is Prism?
Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition,
Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
Snapdragon X series chips."
Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
wrong platform.
One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
in, the emulator performance cratered.
Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"
On Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:09:22 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
The reality here is that Microsoft should have had a compatibility
layer for most of the software ready on day one, much like Apple did.
They already do, but it’s not enough. ARM chips are supposed to offer some kind of energy-saving advantage, but you don’t get that through a compatibility layer.
Say what you will about Apple, but they provided users a decent bridge
from 9.2.2 to X, from IBM to Intel and from x86-64 to ARM.
Somehow they managed to sell those transitions to their user and developer base as steps forward. Microsoft has failed to do the same.
On 2025-03-23 2:20 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 22 Mar 2025 21:09:22 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
The reality here is that Microsoft should have had a compatibility
layer for most of the software ready on day one, much like Apple did.
They already do, but it’s not enough. ARM chips are supposed to offer some >> kind of energy-saving advantage, but you don’t get that through a
compatibility layer.
Say what you will about Apple, but they provided users a decent bridge
from 9.2.2 to X, from IBM to Intel and from x86-64 to ARM.
Somehow they managed to sell those transitions to their user and developer >> base as steps forward. Microsoft has failed to do the same.
Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look bad in Apple's favour.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-22 10:08 p.m., Paul wrote:
On Sat, 3/22/2025 5:55 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
It’s clear Windows users have no clue about this Windows-on-ARM thing >>>> that Microsoft keeps trying to push. They just expect their software
to work. But ARM-based Windows machines still require too many
workarounds and suffer too many limitations, and the users are having
great difficulty seeing the point to them.
<https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/snapdragon-x-powered-surface-laptop-7-gets-frequently-returned-item-warning-on-amazon>
Microsoft does have a translater, to run Win32 code on ARM.
That's what is on the Snapdragon device.
"What is Prism?
Prism is Microsoft's emulation technology that enables x86/x64
applications to run on Windows PCs with Arm processors, such
as Surface Pro 11th Edition, Snapdragon processor;
Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro X, and Surface Laptop 7th Edition, >>> Snapdragon processor. It seamlessly translates app code to run on
ARM architecture, optimizing performance, and reducing CPU usage
to ensure a smooth user experience on devices powered by
Snapdragon X series chips."
Google is playing up right now, but I gather that isn't working
all that well. Some installers can "detect" they're running on the
wrong platform.
One person using one of those products, experienced good performance
at first (right after the OOBE), but as soon as some updates came
in, the emulator performance cratered.
Summary: "Safer to test the emulator on a Raspberry PI than spend $3K and return it"
Thanks for that, I had no idea that Microsoft actually came up with
something to convert. Of course, it doesn't seem to work all that well
if people are returning their machines the way the press says they are.
It's not like the press would lie or anything, right?
I can't help but notice the stellar reviews the supposedly returned
devices are getting.
It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
on that mother fucker.
Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look bad in Apple's favour.
I had no idea that Microsoft actually came up with
something to convert. Of course, it doesn't seem to work all that well
if people are returning their machines the way the press says they are.
It's not like the press would lie or anything, right?
It all has a certain kind of familiarity.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/26/24186432/microsoft-windows-on-arm-qualcomm-copilot-plus-pcs-prism-emulator
I checked my (weird) computer store, and the price of these items seems
to be around $1500, and they are all "Sold Out". Not much chance of needing to return one to that store :-)
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM
on that mother fucker.
Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
well too!
Weren’t there supposed to be other vendors besides Microsoft, offering Windows-on-ARM machines? What happened to them?
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:38:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Weren’t there supposed to be other vendors besides Microsoft, offering
Windows-on-ARM machines? What happened to them?
https://www.xda-developers.com/best-windows-on-arm/ https://www.windowscentral.com/hardware/laptops/best-windows-laptops-with-arm-processor
They are all rather expensive for what they are.
On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:13:59 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped machines
regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the feeling that this is
overblown, designed to make Microsoft look bad in Apple's favour.
If that were true, we should be seeing new models entering the market. Isn’t it getting on to about nine months since the last flurry of model introductions?
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless
reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM >>>> on that mother fucker.
Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
well too!
Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I doubt much training will happen locally.
And, there is competition.impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review-
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review-
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops
that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed
'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that
has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were
they thinking?'.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing
catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomms-exclusivity-deal-is-about-to-end- with-some-big-implications-on-the-horizon/
The Microsoft/Qualcomm deal damped down the competition. AMD was working
on an ARM processor that was supposed to hit the market this year but I haven't heard anything about it lately.
Nvidia was supposed to have a consumer processor out this fall but I don't know what backing out of Arm implies.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidia-cuts-stake-arm-holdings-invests- chinas-weride-2025-02-14/
That AI squirrel is so tempting to chase.
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:avoid by using Linux going forward.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review-
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops
that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed
'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that
has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were
they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only
On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review- >> impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops
that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed
'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that >> has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were
they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD
CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more
than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only avoid by using Linux
going forward.
IDK. I have a spare computer, with a Zen3 in it, and no stutter to be seen. Presumably this is with the Secure Boot enabled ? I have another Zen3,
which is the machine reserved for Secure Boot testing, it has no TPM
and uses the AMD fTPM, and no stutter there either. It has booted Linux Secure Boots and Windows Secure Boots, as part of testing a while ago.
Both machines, the BIOS version is the most recent. Both got flashed up.
The difference with laptops, is the BIOS support may not be as generous.
On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:avoid by using Linux going forward.
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review- >>> impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops
that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed
'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that >>> has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were
they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only
IDK. I have a spare computer, with a Zen3 in it, and no stutter to be seen. Presumably this is with the Secure Boot enabled ? I have another Zen3,
which is the machine reserved for Secure Boot testing, it has no TPM
and uses the AMD fTPM, and no stutter there either. It has booted Linux Secure Boots and Windows Secure Boots, as part of testing a while ago.
Both machines, the BIOS version is the most recent. Both got flashed up.
The difference with laptops, is the BIOS support may not be as generous.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that
has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were
they thinking?'.
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review- >>>> impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops >>>> that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed >>>> 'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that >>>> has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were >>>> they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD
CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those
computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more
than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only avoid by using Linux
going forward.
IDK. I have a spare computer, with a Zen3 in it, and no stutter to be seen. >> Presumably this is with the Secure Boot enabled ? I have another Zen3,
which is the machine reserved for Secure Boot testing, it has no TPM
and uses the AMD fTPM, and no stutter there either. It has booted Linux
Secure Boots and Windows Secure Boots, as part of testing a while ago.
Both machines, the BIOS version is the most recent. Both got flashed up.
The difference with laptops, is the BIOS support may not be as generous.
AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'.
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS --
If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses.
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS
firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
On 2025-03-24 2:41 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review-
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops >>>> that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed >>>> 'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point. >>>>
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that >>>> has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were >>>> they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD
CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those
computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more
than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only avoid by using Linux
going forward.
IDK. I have a spare computer, with a Zen3 in it, and no stutter to be seen.
Presumably this is with the Secure Boot enabled ? I have another Zen3,
which is the machine reserved for Secure Boot testing, it has no TPM
and uses the AMD fTPM, and no stutter there either. It has booted Linux
Secure Boots and Windows Secure Boots, as part of testing a while ago.
Both machines, the BIOS version is the most recent. Both got flashed up. >>
The difference with laptops, is the BIOS support may not be as generous.
AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'.
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS --
If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses.
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Except that it's not fixed. Some manufacturers might have provided a
BIOS to fix the issue, but most have yet to do so on the laptop side. My model computer, the Zephyrus GA401QM, hasn't had a BIOS update since
2023. Everyone expected that the 415 update would fix the issue since it
was repeatedly mentioned by users, but ASUS never bothered to fix it.
The most likely reason is because they can't.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 2:41 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Mon, 3/24/2025 1:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'.
On 2025-03-24 12:58 p.m., rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 03:30:50 -0400, Paul wrote:
And, there is competition.impressive-cpus-even-if-you-dont-care-about-ai/
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/08/ryzen-ai-300-performance-review-
For $1600 it is more than competitive with similarly priced ARM laptops >>>>>> that might be able to run a full range of software someday. The claimed >>>>>> 'up to 18 hours' of battery life reduces the major ARM selling point. >>>>>>
I'm glad to see I'm not alone. I have an Acer laptop with a Ryzen 7 that >>>>>> has a silvery finish and white backlight that had me asking 'what were >>>>>> they thinking?'.
The one thing those reviews never mention is that by using an AMD
CPU, you're going to be facing fTPM stuttering because none of those >>>>> computers come with a discrete TPM chip. For most, it's little more
than a nuisance, but it's one that you can only avoid by using Linux >>>>> going forward.
IDK. I have a spare computer, with a Zen3 in it, and no stutter to be seen.
Presumably this is with the Secure Boot enabled ? I have another Zen3, >>>> which is the machine reserved for Secure Boot testing, it has no TPM
and uses the AMD fTPM, and no stutter there either. It has booted Linux >>>> Secure Boots and Windows Secure Boots, as part of testing a while ago. >>>>
Both machines, the BIOS version is the most recent. Both got flashed up. >>>>
The difference with laptops, is the BIOS support may not be as generous. >>>
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS -- >>> If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses. >>>
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS
firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Except that it's not fixed. Some manufacturers might have provided a
BIOS to fix the issue, but most have yet to do so on the laptop side. My
model computer, the Zephyrus GA401QM, hasn't had a BIOS update since
2023. Everyone expected that the 415 update would fix the issue since it
was repeatedly mentioned by users, but ASUS never bothered to fix it.
The most likely reason is because they can't.
In the previous thread, Andrzej references <https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-acknowledges-ftpm-stuttering-issues-promises-a-bios-fix-in-may>
From that, I understand that AMD supplies the fix to the manufacturers, which of course have to integrate it in their firmware. If those manufacturers - in your case ASUS - fail to do so, that's hardly AMD's
fault. That's the risk of using fTPM, instead of a real TPM.
As I said, my system was fixed and - as I mentioned in the other
thread - that is a (2022) (HP) *laptop*.
On 2025-03-24 1:14 p.m., rbowman wrote:it only highlights the fact that all of us could and probably will be replaced by AI in the future.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing
catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomms-exclusivity-deal-is-about-to-end- >> with-some-big-implications-on-the-horizon/
The Microsoft/Qualcomm deal damped down the competition. AMD was working
on an ARM processor that was supposed to hit the market this year but I
haven't heard anything about it lately.
Nvidia was supposed to have a consumer processor out this fall but I don't >> know what backing out of Arm implies.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidia-cuts-stake-arm-holdings-invests- >> chinas-weride-2025-02-14/
That AI squirrel is so tempting to chase.
I don't need the AI myself but I'm already seeing some teachers clamoring about Co-Pilot. I'm getting the feeling that they're using the tool to create exercises or exams based on material found in an online textbook. It's actually not a bad use, but
On 2025-03-23 19:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:13:59 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped
machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the
feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look
bad in Apple's favour.
If that were true, we should be seeing new models entering the market.
Isn’t it getting on to about nine months since the last flurry of model
introductions?
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Mon, 3/24/2025 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 00:36:17 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Paul <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Sun, 3/23/2025 7:17 AM, Joel wrote:
It's clear why Microsoft would use x86 emulation with ARM, countless >>>>>> reasons, but who cares about their Copilot bullshit, put Linux for ARM >>>>>> on that mother fucker.
Some day, you'll be able to run an AI locally.
You can. Have a look at Ollama. Totally local and open source. Works
well too!
Training and inference are two different things. Other than toy datasets I >>> doubt much training will happen locally.
Realistically, I think it's going to be quite a while,
if ever, before we can put together a decent box for inference.
Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac Studio that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right direction for local LLM training.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-03-23 19:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2025 07:13:59 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Well, users seem to be happy with their Snapdragon-equipped
machines regardless of what the press says. I'm getting the
feeling that this is overblown, designed to make Microsoft look
bad in Apple's favour.
If that were true, we should be seeing new models entering the market.
Isn’t it getting on to about nine months since the last flurry of model >>> introductions?
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is playing
catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
now?
And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
But not for Windows, it seems.
On 2025-03-24 4:38 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
now?
And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
But not for Windows, it seems.
I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
have no idea why others aren't.
Backlighting was not an item on my must-have list and I hardly use(d)
it and when I used it, it was quite dark, so the silvery finish was not
a problem.
I don't need the AI myself but I'm already seeing some teachers
clamoring about Co-Pilot. I'm getting the feeling that they're using the
tool to create exercises or exams based on material found in an online textbook. It's actually not a bad use, but it only highlights the fact
that all of us could and probably will be replaced by AI in the future.
On 24 Mar 2025 18:51:52 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Backlighting was not an item on my must-have list and I hardly use(d)
it and when I used it, it was quite dark, so the silvery finish was not
a problem.
I would never had known there was backlighting except it was on by default
on the Acer. I'm trying to remember if I've ever used a computer in the
dark or even dim lighting.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:02 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-03-24 4:38 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about >>> now?
And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key >>> benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
But not for Windows, it seems.
I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
have no idea why others aren't.
Lots of ARM chips are available for Android, Linux etc. Just not for
Windows.
Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac
Studio that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right direction for local LLM training.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 13:21:42 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I don't need the AI myself but I'm already seeing some teachers
clamoring about Co-Pilot. I'm getting the feeling that they're using the
tool to create exercises or exams based on material found in an online
textbook. It's actually not a bad use, but it only highlights the fact
that all of us could and probably will be replaced by AI in the future.
https://sierra.ai/customers/weightwatchers
A friend's wife was replaced by a chat-bot. It was a good gig while it lasted, work remotely smoothing ruffled feathers of unhappy clients. The friend is a project manager and can see the handwriting on the wall for
that career too.
In a way it's come full circle. I've often thought that computers have created more work than they have saved. Now they have figured out how to eliminate all the busy-work they created.
I once visited a museum that highlighted the household labor saving
devices that started appearing in the late 19th century. The exhibit also pointed out that housewives with more free time on their hands dreamed up
new ways to fill it. (hopefully without chardonnay and pills).
Nothing has changed. I've seen beautiful decorations done by Native
Americans using dyed porcupine quills before the whites showed up with
beads. They obviously weren't struggling for existence. After commercial beads became available and they didn't have to spend time chasing
porcupines, they probably decorated even more stuff.
Not coming to a desktop near you any time soon.
I have a $25 Chinese keyboard, and yeah, it has backlight, but the
colors are all wrong. That thing is pretty brutal, as keyboards go.
Meanwhile, a teacher has to try to teach twenty-five or more students of different levels the same thing at the same time, inevitably catering to
the lowest common denominator at all times.
I know that various manufacturers can make ARM chips but like you, I
have no idea why others aren't. NVIDIA used to, and they weren't
particularly good from what I understand. I would have expected AMD to
bring one out to market too by this point. Of course, they're not
necessarily going to be great sellers, so that might be why they're
dragging their feet.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:58:02 -0400, Paul wrote:
I have a $25 Chinese keyboard, and yeah, it has backlight, but the
colors are all wrong. That thing is pretty brutal, as keyboards go.
I've got an Amazon Basics. It has three lights -- caps lock, num lock, and
I don't have a clue what the third one is.
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 17:48:25 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Not quite sure what exactly you mean by "inference", the latest Mac
Studio that can go up to 512GB RAM is certainly heading in the right
direction for local LLM training.
Inference is when new data is fed into an existing model to reach
conclusions.
Yes, I know. Paul seems to have a different definition, however, as
inference does not need a 4MW supercomputer as he seems to be implying. I have Ollama running completely locally on mac laptop with 32GB RAM.
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:58:02 -0400, Paul wrote:
I have a $25 Chinese keyboard, and yeah, it has backlight, but the
colors are all wrong. That thing is pretty brutal, as keyboards go.
I've got an Amazon Basics. It has three lights -- caps lock, num lock, and >> I don't have a clue what the third one is.
I just tried to see if it was Scroll Lock, and it borked something
with Agent, I had to figure out to disable the feature in Agent's
options so that I could use the arrow keys to edit a post again. The
scroll lock would turn on again when I tried to turn it off. And, to
the point about the Amazon Basics keyboard's third light, it doesn't
seem to light up for any reason I can determine.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 21:44:55 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Meanwhile, a teacher has to try to teach twenty-five or more students of
different levels the same thing at the same time, inevitably catering to
the lowest common denominator at all times.
In my very brief career teaching math and science the school system used homogeneous groupings with classes A through D. Everyone understood D
stood for Dumb but the same curriculum was used for all.
The D kids were basically aging out until they could get their working
papers and could have profited from something less abstract than learning about sexagesimal numeric systems. They had enough trouble functioning in base 10.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:58:02 -0400, Paul wrote:
I have a $25 Chinese keyboard, and yeah, it has backlight, but the
colors are all wrong. That thing is pretty brutal, as keyboards go.
I've got an Amazon Basics. It has three lights -- caps lock, num lock, and
I don't have a clue what the third one is.
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I
honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they
finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so
many things are becoming automated.
CrudeSausage wrote:
[snip]
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I
honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they
finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so
many things are becoming automated.
Cannon fodder? I think Trump is arranging that.
Road mending and all the other manual jobs that AI can't do?
On 24 Mar 2025 18:51:52 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Backlighting was not an item on my must-have list and I hardly use(d)
it and when I used it, it was quite dark, so the silvery finish was not
a problem.
I would never had known there was backlighting except it was on by default
on the Acer. I'm trying to remember if I've ever used a computer in the
dark or even dim lighting.
On 2025-03-24 3:08 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 2:41 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:
AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'.
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS -- >>> If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses.
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS
firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Except that it's not fixed. Some manufacturers might have provided a
BIOS to fix the issue, but most have yet to do so on the laptop side. My >> model computer, the Zephyrus GA401QM, hasn't had a BIOS update since
2023. Everyone expected that the 415 update would fix the issue since it >> was repeatedly mentioned by users, but ASUS never bothered to fix it.
The most likely reason is because they can't.
In the previous thread, Andrzej references <https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-acknowledges-ftpm-stuttering-issues-promises-a-bios-fix-in-may>
From that, I understand that AMD supplies the fix to the manufacturers, which of course have to integrate it in their firmware. If those manufacturers - in your case ASUS - fail to do so, that's hardly AMD's fault. That's the risk of using fTPM, instead of a real TPM.
As I said, my system was fixed and - as I mentioned in the other
thread - that is a (2022) (HP) *laptop*.
Did the latest (or any previous) BIOS update mention fixing fTPM specifically? I ask because it is also possible that the problem is
still there but that you haven't yet encountered it.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 3:08 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 2:41 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:
AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'.
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS --
If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses.
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS >>>>> firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Except that it's not fixed. Some manufacturers might have provided a
BIOS to fix the issue, but most have yet to do so on the laptop side. My >>>> model computer, the Zephyrus GA401QM, hasn't had a BIOS update since
2023. Everyone expected that the 415 update would fix the issue since it >>>> was repeatedly mentioned by users, but ASUS never bothered to fix it.
The most likely reason is because they can't.
In the previous thread, Andrzej references
<https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-acknowledges-ftpm-stuttering-issues-promises-a-bios-fix-in-may>
From that, I understand that AMD supplies the fix to the manufacturers, >>> which of course have to integrate it in their firmware. If those
manufacturers - in your case ASUS - fail to do so, that's hardly AMD's
fault. That's the risk of using fTPM, instead of a real TPM.
As I said, my system was fixed and - as I mentioned in the other
thread - that is a (2022) (HP) *laptop*.
Did the latest (or any previous) BIOS update mention fixing fTPM
specifically? I ask because it is also possible that the problem is
still there but that you haven't yet encountered it.
To be [f|F]rank, you could well be right. The 'Fixes'/'Revision
history' I have (the publicly available ones) do not specifically
mention fixing fTPM, only general comments such as "improved security"
and "improved system stability".
As I mentioned in the other thread, this was the only BIOS update
which was force installed and was released after the AMD fTPM problem
was fixed by AMD.
Bottom line: I think the problem was fixed in my laptop, but don't
have any actual proof.
On 2025-03-25 11:25, Frank Slootweg wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 3:08 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2025-03-24 2:41 p.m., Frank Slootweg wrote:
AFAIC, this 'AMD stuttering' issue is old and fixed 'news'. >>>>>>
See the January thread 'This Is Why They Say Windows Is A Great OS --
If Your Time Is Worth Nothing' in these groups.
See Andrzej Matuch's post [1] in that thread and my and his responses.
As mentioned in my last response [2], in my case there was a BIOS
firmware update.
[1] Message-ID: <z0ldP.24349$[email protected]>
[2] Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Except that it's not fixed. Some manufacturers might have provided a >>>>> BIOS to fix the issue, but most have yet to do so on the laptop side. My >>>>> model computer, the Zephyrus GA401QM, hasn't had a BIOS update since >>>>> 2023. Everyone expected that the 415 update would fix the issue since it >>>>> was repeatedly mentioned by users, but ASUS never bothered to fix it. >>>>> The most likely reason is because they can't.
In the previous thread, Andrzej references
<https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-acknowledges-ftpm-stuttering-issues-promises-a-bios-fix-in-may>
From that, I understand that AMD supplies the fix to the manufacturers,
which of course have to integrate it in their firmware. If those
manufacturers - in your case ASUS - fail to do so, that's hardly AMD's >>>> fault. That's the risk of using fTPM, instead of a real TPM.
As I said, my system was fixed and - as I mentioned in the other >>>> thread - that is a (2022) (HP) *laptop*.
Did the latest (or any previous) BIOS update mention fixing fTPM
specifically? I ask because it is also possible that the problem is
still there but that you haven't yet encountered it.
To be [f|F]rank, you could well be right. The 'Fixes'/'Revision
history' I have (the publicly available ones) do not specifically
mention fixing fTPM, only general comments such as "improved security"
and "improved system stability".
As I mentioned in the other thread, this was the only BIOS update
which was force installed and was released after the AMD fTPM problem
was fixed by AMD.
Bottom line: I think the problem was fixed in my laptop, but don't
have any actual proof.
Well, if in the future you are watching any kind of media and the sound becomes extremely distorted for three seconds, as if the space-time
continuum has been broken, you will have faced fTPM stuttering.
On 2025-03-25 09:02, Graham J wrote:
CrudeSausage wrote:
[snip]
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so many things are becoming automated.
Cannon fodder? I think Trump is arranging that.
Road mending and all the other manual jobs that AI can't do?
I would not mind them doing very hard labour, to be honest. It will make up for the fact that they do little to nothing now.
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I
honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they
finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so
many things are becoming automated.
CrudeSausage wrote:
[snip]
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I
honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they
finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so
many things are becoming automated.
Cannon fodder? I think Trump is arranging that.
On our 'camping' trips (in a 4WD campervan), I might have used it once
or twice. When I did not yet have the backlighting, I took a small
plug-in USB light with us. And it might come in handy during a power
failure at night.
Scroll Lock maybe, but I don't know what a Scroll Lock is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_Lock
"Scroll Lock was intended to modify the behavior of the arrow
keys."
The $25 keyboard is more weird, in that it has the three LEDs the
keyboards have for status, but it uses some sort of icons. And I cannot correlate the icons with the named functions. None of the icons indicate "Caps Lock" to me.
On Mon, 3/24/2025 9:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
Not coming to a desktop near you any time soon.
I think this is true.
1) The cost can come down, by roughly a factor of three. 2) The benefit
has to be higher, to swing the deal.
A break through is needed, not because the current AI is so "dopey",
it's because the current technology does not scale nearly well enough.
You can't handle a "big" problem currently, even in a data center.
Unless that changes, there will never be a Skynet.
Agree and there will be. DeepSeek has shown there are big step changes possible. Biology has also shown there are order of magnitude efficiency improvements "out there". I mean, the human brain doesn't need megawatts
of power.
Yes, CUDA is the dominant interface, but not the only game in town.
There are other NPUs that can give nVidia a run for its money.
Sure, but there's a whole spectrum of needs for deep learning methods
that are far more modest and still very useful.
Machine learning has been around since the 1960s and has had real world
uses for a lot of that time.
I created my first model in 2006/7 with no need for a GPU.
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 08:52:53 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
I have a lot of those D classes, so I know exactly what you mean. I
honestly can't imagine what these people will be good for when they
finally decide to enter the job market, especially at a time when so
many things are becoming automated.
At least around here 'grocery bagger' is vanishing as a career option.
Most of the ckeckout lanes are unmanned. I had to use one this week
because the self service kiosks don't handle the CostCo refund checks.
My wife and I refuse to use the unmanned checkout lanes. Most of the
time, the machine has some problem and we need the assistance of the fat black woman nearby anyway. You'll see them coming four or five times to
our station because the machine had a heart attack and they need to
enter a code. Considering these problems, and the fact that we're not
the only ones having them, they might want to rethink removing human cashiers.
On 25 Mar 2025 15:35:01 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
On our 'camping' trips (in a 4WD campervan), I might have used it once
or twice. When I did not yet have the backlighting, I took a small
plug-in USB light with us. And it might come in handy during a power failure at night.
I take a laptop on road trips where I may be staying in motels, but for
car camping my tech ends with a Kindle.
My wife and I refuse to use the unmanned checkout lanes. Most of the
time, the machine has some problem and we need the assistance of the fat black woman nearby anyway. You'll see them coming four or five times to
our station because the machine had a heart attack and they need to
enter a code. Considering these problems, and the fact that we're not
the only ones having them, they might want to rethink removing human cashiers.
My wife and I refuse to use the unmanned checkout lanes. Most of the
time, the machine has some problem and we need the assistance of the fat black woman nearby anyway. You'll see them coming four or five times to
our station because the machine had a heart attack and they need to
enter a code. Considering these problems, and the fact that we're not
the only ones having them, they might want to rethink removing human cashiers.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[email protected]d> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 08:54:49 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
Considering how there is not yet a successor to the Snapdragon X Elite
available, I don't see why they would feel the need to produce new
models. Let the company release a new processor, and the manufacturers
will follow with computers based on it. As it is, Snapdragon is
playing catch-up to Apple's ARM chips.
Didn’t Qualcomm promise to have cheaper chips for Windows-on-ARM about
now?
And why is everybody waiting for Qualcomm, anyway? Isn’t one of the key
benefits of ARM the fact that it is available from multiple sources?
But not for Windows, it seems.
Microsoft signed an exclusive deal with QC. That's why there is no Boot
Camp for Arm Macs.
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 08:33:03 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Agree and there will be. DeepSeek has shown there are big step changes
possible. Biology has also shown there are order of magnitude efficiency >>> improvements "out there". I mean, the human brain doesn't need megawatts >>> of power.
It's relative.
No it isn't. AI is trying to replicate the power of a biological brain.
It's getting close in many ways, but is completely unsustainable
energy-wise.
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On 25 Mar 2025 15:35:01 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
On our 'camping' trips (in a 4WD campervan), I might have used it once >>> or twice. When I did not yet have the backlighting, I took a small
plug-in USB light with us. And it might come in handy during a power
failure at night.
I take a laptop on road trips where I may be staying in motels, but for
car camping my tech ends with a Kindle.
Our 'camping' trips - in Australia - are (now: were :-() mostly three months at a time, hence the 'need' for a laptop (smartphone(s), tablet
laptop and indeed an eReader).
I stopped using the self checkout at Kroger because there are too many >problems. The machine is supposed to accept coupons, but usually won't. >Several times, when I was ready to pay, the machine called for help. It
also complained when I removed a full bag of groceries.
I haven't had any problems with the machines at Wal-Mart.
On 27/03/2025 2:38 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On 25 Mar 2025 15:35:01 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
On our 'camping' trips (in a 4WD campervan), I might have used it once >>> or twice. When I did not yet have the backlighting, I took a small
plug-in USB light with us. And it might come in handy during a power
failure at night.
I take a laptop on road trips where I may be staying in motels, but for
car camping my tech ends with a Kindle.
Our 'camping' trips - in Australia - are (now: were :-() mostly three months at a time, hence the 'need' for a laptop (smartphone(s), tablet laptop and indeed an eReader).
"mostly three months at a time"?? Don't tell me, Frank, did you go
*north* for the Winter?? ;-P
Daniel70 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 27/03/2025 2:38 am, Frank Slootweg wrote:
rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:"mostly three months at a time"?? Don't tell me, Frank, did you go
On 25 Mar 2025 15:35:01 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
On our 'camping' trips (in a 4WD campervan), I might have used it once
or twice. When I did not yet have the backlighting, I took a small
plug-in USB light with us. And it might come in handy during a power >>>>> failure at night.
I take a laptop on road trips where I may be staying in motels, but for >>>> car camping my tech ends with a Kindle.
Our 'camping' trips - in Australia - are (now: were :-() mostly three >>> months at a time, hence the 'need' for a laptop (smartphone(s), tablet
laptop and indeed an eReader).
*north* for the Winter?? ;-P
We mostly visited Oz in your autumn, summer or spring. Our last trip
(in 2024) had to be in your winter, because close family joined us for
some time and they could only come in our-summer/your-winter. So we
mostly traveled in north-ish QLD (from Cairns north to Cooktown and then south to Caboolture/Brisbane).
Microsoft’s own lack of confidence in Windows-on-ARM is betrayed by the introduction of its own-brand “Windows 365 Link PC” <https://www.theverge.com/news/642594/microsoft-windows-365-link-pc-on-sale>.
It’s supposed to offer better security, compactness, power efficiency -- all the kinds of things that ARM should be a natural for, don’t you
think?
But no, it uses some Intel x86 chip.
On Tue, 3/25/2025 2:52 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:58:02 -0400, Paul wrote:
I have a $25 Chinese keyboard, and yeah, it has backlight, but the
colors are all wrong. That thing is pretty brutal, as keyboards go.
I've got an Amazon Basics. It has three lights -- caps lock, num lock, and >> I don't have a clue what the third one is.
Scroll Lock maybe, but I don't know what a Scroll Lock is :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_Lock
"Scroll Lock was intended to modify the behavior of the arrow keys."
The $25 keyboard is more weird, in that it has the three LEDs
the keyboards have for status, but it uses some sort of icons.
And I cannot correlate the icons with the named functions. None
of the icons indicate "Caps Lock" to me.
This keyboard has some additional "rubber buttons"
Internet, Email, Search, Mute, Vol+, Vol-
And on WinXP, the rubber buttons didn't work. On later OSes,
the buttons work without needing a third party driver.
Pressing the Internet button causes the default browser
to open. I guess this is important. The "Mute" makes some sense.
Paul
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