PCI-e, obviously, made in China, Fenvi brand seemingly endorsed by
Newegg, ordered from the same. Debian utilized it with my home
Internet on boot up, previous motherboard-integrated WiFi was still
working but would get slow after a period of time, needing to shut
down the system and turn back on to make it fast again. The odd
antenna that magnetized to the top of the case (where would Larry put
it, if he bought this motherboard, not that he would of course, the
weirdo) is now removed, and I wiped dust off of the case and a bit
inside, while working. Pretty happy.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After all
you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
PCI-e, obviously, made in China, Fenvi brand seemingly endorsed by
Newegg, ordered from the same. Debian utilized it with my home
Internet on boot up, previous motherboard-integrated WiFi was still
working but would get slow after a period of time, needing to shut
down the system and turn back on to make it fast again. The odd
antenna that magnetized to the top of the case (where would Larry put
it, if he bought this motherboard, not that he would of course, the
weirdo) is now removed, and I wiped dust off of the case and a bit
inside, while working. Pretty happy.
Well, we're always happy to see new, easy, devices.
Alas China ... well ... beware. Got/analyzed the
source code for those drivers ???
Are they not in the kernel?
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite >>> with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After all
you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
NOPE !!!
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between
Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes <esc> or
maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with
the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a
fuckin' microsecond.
On 2/22/25 3:25 AM, Joel wrote:
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
PCI-e, obviously, made in China, Fenvi brand seemingly endorsed by
Newegg, ordered from the same. Debian utilized it with my home
Internet on boot up, previous motherboard-integrated WiFi was still
working but would get slow after a period of time, needing to shut
down the system and turn back on to make it fast again. The odd
antenna that magnetized to the top of the case (where would Larry put
it, if he bought this motherboard, not that he would of course, the
weirdo) is now removed, and I wiped dust off of the case and a bit
inside, while working. Pretty happy.
Well, we're always happy to see new, easy, devices.
Alas China ... well ... beware. Got/analyzed the
source code for those drivers ???
Are they not in the kernel?
Go ahead ... read a megabyte, figure out
what it all does ......
Clue, NOBODY does.
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
PCI-e, obviously, made in China, Fenvi brand seemingly endorsed by
Newegg, ordered from the same. Debian utilized it with my home
Internet on boot up, previous motherboard-integrated WiFi was still
working but would get slow after a period of time, needing to shut
down the system and turn back on to make it fast again. The odd
antenna that magnetized to the top of the case (where would Larry put >>>>> it, if he bought this motherboard, not that he would of course, the
weirdo) is now removed, and I wiped dust off of the case and a bit
inside, while working. Pretty happy.
Well, we're always happy to see new, easy, devices.
Alas China ... well ... beware. Got/analyzed the
source code for those drivers ???
Are they not in the kernel?
Go ahead ... read a megabyte, figure out
what it all does ......
Clue, NOBODY does.
If Linus and his associates approve code, it's good enough for me. I
am a software whore, really, installing things not found in Debian's
app store.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After all
you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
rbowman wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After all
you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
I still have Win 11 on my Trycoo mini PC. I need it to make sure my code builds and runs in that OS. Also, getting code to run in more than one platform
tends to ferret out undesirable assumptions.
I do begrudge every minute logged into Windows, even with VLC streaming Groove
Salad.
I do begrudge every minute logged into Windows
On 22/02/2025 12:41, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
rbowman wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:I've still got XP running in a virtual machine. It runs Corel suite, a specialist engineering program, and a 3D CAD package.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite >>>> with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After all >>> you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
I still have Win 11 on my Trycoo mini PC. I need it to make sure my code
builds and runs in that OS. Also, getting code to run in more than one
platform tends to ferret out undesirable assumptions.
It is all fully integrated with the linux desktop in terms of file interchange. It is purely a program launcher for the programs it runs. It has proved useful in the past to access banking websites that wouldn't work with a linux browser.
I do begrudge every minute logged into Windows, even with VLC streaming
Groove Salad.
???WTF??? logged into windows? I just hit the button marked 'Windows XP' and there is windows already up and running, exactly where I left it. In less than 5 seconds...
The joys of Virtual Box
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After
all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes
<esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite >>>> with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After
all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes
<esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to
download its replacement.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first Linux install
stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it started using RHEL and early
SUSE that came on floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for a long time alas -
MUCH happier with my Linux servers and such but the staff was NOT
gonna switch to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only ONE
other Linux convertee in the place.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 21:08:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first Linux install
stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it started using RHEL and early
SUSE that came on floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for a long time alas -
MUCH happier with my Linux servers and such but the staff was NOT
gonna switch to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only ONE
other Linux convertee in the place.
My first Linux was Slackware on floppies, about 40 for the full install
iirc, downloaded and created on a Windows box, strictly DIY. I do have a
SuSE box, 8.2?, with hard copy documentation and 4 DVDs. $79.99 at Best
Buy. I think that came after the Red Hat release with the notorious gcc
2.96 and screwed up Python.
However, starting with MSDOS in the '80s most of what I've worked on has
been Microsoft. The software in my current job was originally developed on AIX. We had some shared RS6000 servers but much of the development was
done on Linux. Unfortunately we only had two sites that would run Linux
after they migrated from IBM hardware to the much less expensive x86
boxes, While the legacy programs run on Windows, they use the MKS
NutCracker runtime, sort of a commercial Cygwin. The GUIs are Motif and
run on the PTC X server from MKS.
As I've mentioned when I provision a new machine the workload is very similar, Windows or Linux. Vim, VS Code, Postgres, QGIS, Python,
LibreOffice if I really have to read some docx proposal, node, and so
forth. I even use the dotnet SDK on Linux.
I prefer Linux but I do not hate Windows and I can operate effectively on either. I'm not a gamer, so that doesn't matter, I've never used Office,
and I'm not tied to a prehistoric version of Acdcess, like DFS. The only thing tied to Windows for the most part is Esri and I'm no longer actively developing with Esri.
I 'started' on a PDP-11. Then all the brands of the newfangled 'home
computers'. DOS came along later. Learned some OS-9 on a CoCo before
I ever learned DOS.
OS-9 used to brag that it was "like Unix" - only much smaller and
faster
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 21:08:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first Linux install
stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it started using RHEL and early
SUSE that came on floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for a long time alas -
MUCH happier with my Linux servers and such but the staff was NOT
gonna switch to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only ONE
other Linux convertee in the place.
My first Linux was Slackware on floppies, about 40 for the full install
iirc, downloaded and created on a Windows box, strictly DIY. I do have a
SuSE box, 8.2?, with hard copy documentation and 4 DVDs. $79.99 at Best
Buy. I think that came after the Red Hat release with the notorious gcc
2.96 and screwed up Python.
On 2025-02-23, rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 21:08:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first Linux install
stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it started using RHEL and early
SUSE that came on floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for a long time alas - >>> MUCH happier with my Linux servers and such but the staff was NOT
gonna switch to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only ONE
other Linux convertee in the place.
My first Linux was Slackware on floppies, about 40 for the full install
iirc, downloaded and created on a Windows box, strictly DIY. I do have a
SuSE box, 8.2?, with hard copy documentation and 4 DVDs. $79.99 at Best
Buy. I think that came after the Red Hat release with the notorious gcc
2.96 and screwed up Python.
When I first decided to set up a Linux box I went to the local bookstore
and looked through their Linux books and picked the one I liked best.
It happened to be by Patrick Volkerding and it came with a CD containig Slackware 3.5. I booted and installed it from scratch on an Acer laptop
with 48MB of RAM and a 1.3GB hard drive - which in those days was enough
to run X. In fact, I took a Windows program I had written and ran it
under Wine; it displayed its GUI screen, collected data from a serial
port hooked to my Amiga, and talked via my LAN to the main processing
program that was running on a native Windows box. When I first got it
all going I sat there for 5 or 10 minutes just giggling hysterically.
These days I run Linux (currently Debian Bookworm) natively. XP under VirtualBox gives me all the Windows stuff I need with none of the bloat
or spyware. Most of the stuff I write is back-end software for Windows
(much of it TCP/IP based) so I don't need the latest fancy GUI stuff (I
do write a few screens, but they're fairly primitive, i.e. adequate for
our needs). My programs also compile and run under Linux (gotta love
the C preprocessor) - it was a fairly easy port since I already had
them running on SCO boxes in several shops before getting into Linux.
Tried Slack ... but it was a lot of work. Early RH was 'just easier'
and SUSE far more so. Still see Slack as a sort of
'teaching-oriented' system ... but the number of students willing to
put up with that level of do-it-yourselfness seems to be shrinking.
If it ain't got a dazzling GUI and LEGO-style assembly for yer phone
these days then the kiddies ain't interested.
On Sun, 23 Feb 2025 00:50:26 -0500, c186282 wrote:
Tried Slack ... but it was a lot of work. Early RH was 'just easier'
and SUSE far more so. Still see Slack as a sort of
'teaching-oriented' system ... but the number of students willing to
put up with that level of do-it-yourselfness seems to be shrinking.
If it ain't got a dazzling GUI and LEGO-style assembly for yer phone
these days then the kiddies ain't interested.
http://www.slackware.com/install/bootdisk.php
For the real old time feeling.
https://docs.slackware.com/slackware:install
The more modern type that uses one of those new-fangled CDs. afaik
Yggdrasil was the first distro to offer a CD. That one didn't survive.
I've never used Office,
and I'm not tied to a prehistoric version of Access, like DFS.
On 2/22/2025 11:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
I've never used Office,
I pity the fool...
and I'm not tied to a prehistoric version of Access, like DFS.
I have a ton of Access apps and VBA code in Access and Excel 2003,
archived from my development work thru the years. I don't need to
upgrade it to later versions anyway, so there it sits.
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included >>>>>> Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite >>>>>> with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After >>>>> all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive. >>>>>
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes >>>> <esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to
download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number
of PIs and BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't
had Winders around the house since, gee, XP. Do have
a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for occasional retro
kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included >>>>>> Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite >>>>>> with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After >>>>> all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive. >>>>>
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes >>>> <esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to
download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number
of PIs and BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't
had Winders around the house since, gee, XP. Do have
a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for occasional retro
kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax
boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST
ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been
TOTALLY dumped.
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax
boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST
ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been
TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since, like
it or not, that is what most organizations use.
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax
boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST
ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been
TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since, like
it or not, that is what most organizations use.
vallor wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 22:59:34 -0400, Joel <[email protected]> wrote init might be but you're used to mine
<[email protected]>:
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the
included Winders does not run for a single microsecond
before you overwrite with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond.
After all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a >>>>>>> thumbdrive.
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units.
Sometimes <esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to >>>>> download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number of PIs and
BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't had Winders around the
house since, gee, XP. Do have a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for
occasional retro kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first Linux install
stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it started using RHEL and early
SUSE that came on floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for a long time
alas - MUCH happier with my Linux servers and such but the staff
was NOT gonna switch to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas
only ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
Sarcasm isn't your stronger suit, is it?
vallor wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 22:59:34 -0400, Joel <[email protected]> wrote init might be but you're used to mine
<[email protected]>:
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included >>>>>>>> Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After >>>>>>> all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive. >>>>>>>
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes
<esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to >>>>> download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number
of PIs and BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't
had Winders around the house since, gee, XP. Do have
a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for occasional retro
kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
Sarcasm isn't your stronger suit, is it?
In article <[email protected]>,
% <[email protected]> wrote:
vallor wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 22:59:34 -0400, Joel <[email protected]> wrote init might be but you're used to mine
<[email protected]>:
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included
Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After >>>>>>>> all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive.
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes
<esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to >>>>>> download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number
of PIs and BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't
had Winders around the house since, gee, XP. Do have
a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for occasional retro
kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro >>>> on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
Sarcasm isn't your stronger suit, is it?
And that is a warning.
On Mon, 02 Jun 2025 22:59:34 -0400, Joel <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 02:53:32 -0500, c186282 wrote:
On 2/22/25 2:29 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2025 01:55:40 -0500, c186282 wrote:NOPE !!!
It SHOULD be a matter of PRIDE though to make sure the included >>>>>>> Winders does not run for a single microsecond before you overwrite
with Linux
The Windows 11 on my Beelink lasted longer than a microsecond. After >>>>>> all you need something to download the iso and burn it to a thumbdrive. >>>>>>
Find the BIOS keystroke. Varies between Beelink/BMax units. Sometimes
<esc> or maybe F12.
Boot direct from the thumb-drive with the Linux ISO.
Winders doesn't have to run for a fuckin' microsecond.
Try reading that again, particularly the part about using Windows to
download its replacement.
I have three laptops and two desktops and a number
of PIs and BeeLink/BMax boxes - all Linux. Haven't
had Winders around the house since, gee, XP. Do have
a Win2K VM around, somewhere, for occasional retro
kicks.
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
Sarcasm isn't your stronger suit, is it?
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax
boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST
ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been
TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since, like
it or not, that is what most organizations use.
c186282 <[email protected]> wrote:
Admittedly though, MOST people will make their first
Linux install stick using Winders. Tragic. I got it
started using RHEL and early SUSE that came on
floppies bought from WalMart. Never needed Win
after that. Had to deal with its BS at The Job for
a long time alas - MUCH happier with my Linux
servers and such but the staff was NOT gonna switch
to Linux, most could barely work Win. Alas only
ONE other Linux convertee in the place.
Why would you call it "tragic" to make a USB media with Winblows? It
works. I admittedly rewrote the media under Linux itself, to
eliminate Rufus' fingerprint, but I did install the first Linux distro
on this machine from a media made in Win11. It didn't make any
difference in terms of what was installed. You apparently are such a
purist you can't even look at Winblows on the screen without pissing
your pants, or something.
It's a matter of PRIDE ... WON'T have WinBlows appear on
screen for a millisecond :-)
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the
BeeLink/BMax boxes without ever letting WinBlows
manifest. It works well. IMHO you should have had
plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST
ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win
should have been TOTALLY dumped.
DO like the little BeeLink/BMax boxes however. While
PIs are good for what PIs are good for, these units
are a little more 'general purpose' - most have room
for an extra small SATA disk/SSD right in the tiny box.
Price is still pretty good. Note that the newer N150
units may require updated drivers ... had to install
a MX-AHD distro with THE latest drivers on one with
an N-150. Using Linux, the N-95-150 units perform
MUCH better than with Win - actually damned decent.
Have one with and MX base ... running GhostBSD as
a VM ... and both are fairly zippy.
Since I work with one machine at a time, it made sense to create the
media in the OS I was replacing, Win11, and in fact I couldn't have
avoided using Windows on this machine for at least a while, because
its hardware was too state-of-the-art initially to boot a Linux
installer.
Even when I did later install Linux, it uses a file
allocation table partition for the boot loader, on the first NVMe
drive, I added a second one later, it's a very modern PC, but works
much superiorly with Linux, since Win11 is nonstop bloat, and Win10
would be settling for a dead end.
On 03/06/2025 07:06, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:That's the reason many of us are so used to vi.
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax >>> boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO >>> you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST >>> ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been >>> TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since, like
it or not, that is what most organizations use.
The customer always had that, at least.
On 6/3/25 3:10 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2025 07:06, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:That's the reason many of us are so used to vi.
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the
BeeLink/BMax boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It
works well. IMHO
you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at
LEAST ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should
have been TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since,
like it or not, that is what most organizations use.
The customer always had that, at least.
Note : I actually REMOVE 'vi' and friends from my boxes so it won't
even be TEMPTED to run :-)
'Nano' !!!
LONG LONG back I wrote a 'nano' equiv in '86 MASM because I just
*hated* 'edlin'. Maybe early 1985 ? Did find the code recently ...
alas all on 136-col striped paper ...
If I live long enough maybe I'll resurrect it.
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ? Made it EASY to write
full-screen editors.
You had to have the "Technical Reference Manual" to know all that
stuff, however I did have that ....
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
On 6/3/25 3:10 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2025 07:06, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:That's the reason many of us are so used to vi.
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the
BeeLink/BMax boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It >>>>> works well. IMHO
you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at >>>>> LEAST ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should >>>>> have been TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since,
like it or not, that is what most organizations use.
The customer always had that, at least.
Note : I actually REMOVE 'vi' and friends from my boxes so it won't
even be TEMPTED to run :-)
'Nano' !!!
LONG LONG back I wrote a 'nano' equiv in '86 MASM because I just
*hated* 'edlin'. Maybe early 1985 ? Did find the code recently ...
alas all on 136-col striped paper ...
If I live long enough maybe I'll resurrect it.
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ? Made it EASY to write
full-screen editors.
You had to have the "Technical Reference Manual" to know all that
stuff, however I did have that ....
ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!
On 6/3/25 3:10 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/06/2025 07:06, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:That's the reason many of us are so used to vi.
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax >>>> boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well.
IMHO you
should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at LEAST >>>> ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have been >>>> TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since, like >>> it or not, that is what most organizations use.
The customer always had that, at least.
Note : I actually REMOVE 'vi' and friends from my
boxes so it won't even be TEMPTED to run :-)
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
On 6/3/25 2:06 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax
boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO
you should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at
LEAST ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have
been TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since,
like it or not, that is what most organizations use.
I understand perfectly, my exact experience.
But how I *wish* I could have delivered them all out of Winder$
........
DID run all the servers/backups/mail on Linux however ......
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did >>>> have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in '81 and hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was designed to
be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I
was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi improved) is a hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to use vi aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
On 04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did >>> have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
I think for office work word perfect was probably the best editor ever designed. Just smart enough and not too smart
Its still available for linux somewhere
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:01:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/3/25 2:06 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2025 00:21:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Anyway, I described how to install Linux/Unix on the BeeLink/BMax >>>> boxes without ever letting WinBlows manifest. It works well. IMHO >>>> you should have had plenty, maybe exclusively, Linux boxes for at >>>> LEAST ten years. Vista was kind of The Point where Win should have >>>> been TOTALLY dumped.
I've had Linux boxes for over 25 years. However, being a professional
developer I fucking well better be able to work with Windows since,
like it or not, that is what most organizations use.
I understand perfectly, my exact experience.
But how I *wish* I could have delivered them all out of Winder$
........
DID run all the servers/backups/mail on Linux however ......
We tried. Most of the original sites used AIX on RS/6000 servers and workstations. The Y2K AIX fixes wouldn't work on older hardware and when
the sites looked at the costs to replace it they discovered Windows.
In house we developed on Linux and then tested on AIX. The Makefiles had a few tweaks for the AIX and Linux builds. The biggest pain were the geo databases that had to be converted from big to little endian but that
wasn't a big deal.
In other words, we had a complete working and tested Linux solution. Only
two sites went that way, because the administrators were Linux fans. For
the rest we used the NutCracker runtime, sort of a commercial Cygwin, to
port Unix code to Windows, including running an X server for the Motif
GUIs.
Perhaps the sales force didn't try hard enough but Windows won out so we spent years working around Windows problems.
In later years many sites went to Esri for their GIS and that cinched it. Esri was very Windows centered and their C++ API was wrapped around COM.
They tried a Linux port emulating COM in Java that was a disaster and was dropped.
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did >>>> have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in '81 and hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was designed to
be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I
was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi improved) is a hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to use vi aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
On 2025-06-04 22:21, rbowman wrote:
...
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
Borland Pascal (and Borland C I suppose) at some point came with a set
of libraries that allowed to create menu based text applications, and
one of the included objects was an editor, for at least 65K of text.
I remember another set of libraries, that came with a thick book, that included the libraries to create an editor. I don't remember the name.
On 6/4/25 4:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in '81
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I
did have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was
better than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
and hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was
designed to be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I
was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi improved)
is a hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the
future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to use
vi aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
Umm ... are we talking WordSTAR or WordPERFECT here ?
I know about the ESRI issue ... more and more at the office just HAD
to have it whether they USED it or not.
On 6/4/25 3:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
GOOD !
There WERE a lot of them early in PC-dom ... some were simple, some
ambitious, some evolved into better things.
On 6/4/25 4:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the >>>>> "Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I >>>>> did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in '81
and
hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was
designed to
be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I
was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi improved)
is a
hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to use vi
aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
Umm ... are we talking WordSTAR or WordPERFECT here ?
I've used both - indeed even WS on a Kaypro CP/M box -
but WordPerfect was much better. The old boss still
used it for everything until he retired a few years
ago. Fortunately LibreOffice could at least READ WP
files (not sure if ever became able to write them).
On 6/4/25 4:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-04 22:21, rbowman wrote:
...
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
Borland Pascal (and Borland C I suppose) at some point came with a set
of libraries that allowed to create menu based text applications, and
one of the included objects was an editor, for at least 65K of text.
I remember another set of libraries, that came with a thick book, that
included the libraries to create an editor. I don't remember the name.
No Borland stuff yet when we got our PCs ... and
we couldn't afford anything but the MS/IBM FORTRAN
compiler for the stats people. So, I opened the
Tek Ref manual and wrote my EdLin-killer in MASM.
It was fun too :-)
No real internet back in '82 ... so you couldn't
download other people's solutions. The few BBS
systems were mostly Commodore/Atari stuff.
On 04/06/2025 23:58, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:21 PM, rbowman wrote:WordStar produced plain text files It was an editor.
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the >>>>>> "Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however >>>>>> I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better >>>> than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in
'81 and
hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was
designed to
be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I
was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi improved)
is a
hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to use vi >>> aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
Umm ... are we talking WordSTAR or WordPERFECT here ?
Word produced its own format - it was a primitive word processor
I've used both - indeed even WS on a Kaypro CP/M box -Word Perfect was in many ways Perfect...Just enough features to be
but WordPerfect was much better. The old boss still
used it for everything until he retired a few years
ago. Fortunately LibreOffice could at least READ WP
files (not sure if ever became able to write them).
useful to write letters and short documents on with an easy interface.
Word suffered from 'creeping feauturism' and couldn't decide whether it
was a desktop publishing suite or a thing to write letters and manuals
with.
Well had to use it because everyone else sent is Word files, etc etc.
On 2025-06-05 01:06, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-04 22:21, rbowman wrote:
...
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of >>>> the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
Borland Pascal (and Borland C I suppose) at some point came with a
set of libraries that allowed to create menu based text applications,
and one of the included objects was an editor, for at least 65K of text. >>>
I remember another set of libraries, that came with a thick book,
that included the libraries to create an editor. I don't remember the
name.
No Borland stuff yet when we got our PCs ... and
we couldn't afford anything but the MS/IBM FORTRAN
compiler for the stats people. So, I opened the
Tek Ref manual and wrote my EdLin-killer in MASM.
It was fun too :-)
No real internet back in '82 ... so you couldn't
download other people's solutions. The few BBS
systems were mostly Commodore/Atari stuff.
I did not have a phone in the 80's, so neither a modem. But I lived at a student residence at Uni, so exchanging software via floppy was trivial ;-)
On 2025-06-05 10:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2025 23:58, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:21 PM, rbowman wrote:WordStar produced plain text files It was an editor.
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the >>>>>>> "Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however >>>>>>> I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was
better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
Definitely. WordStar was bundled on the Osborne 1 CP/M I bought in
'81 and
hat is what I used. When I moved to DOS I used Brief which was
designed to
be a programming editor.
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming books of >>>> the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it
followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
I wrote cross-assemblers when they weren't available or expensive but I >>>> was happy with available editors. I did not use vi. Vim (vi
improved) is a
hell of an improvement but that was more than 10 years in the future.
vi in most Linux distros is a symlink to Vim so many who claim to
use vi
aren't using the original Bill Joy version.
Umm ... are we talking WordSTAR or WordPERFECT here ?
It had a method to indicate underline, bold, double size... I don't
remember how. Hidden codes like ".XY"?
But then it had trouble calculating the page size. I believe I had to
force page jump earlier.
Word produced its own format - it was a primitive word processor
I've used both - indeed even WS on a Kaypro CP/M box -Word Perfect was in many ways Perfect...Just enough features to be
but WordPerfect was much better. The old boss still
used it for everything until he retired a few years
ago. Fortunately LibreOffice could at least READ WP
files (not sure if ever became able to write them).
useful to write letters and short documents on with an easy interface.
Indeed it was perfect. I could have complicated pages and it still got
the page size correct.
Word suffered from 'creeping feauturism' and couldn't decide whether
it was a desktop publishing suite or a thing to write letters and
manuals with.
Well had to use it because everyone else sent is Word files, etc etc.
That was in the late 90's. With Windows.
LONG back, I used to log into CompuServe (still exists) for its own
version of usenet (and it was good) using a dumb terminal hooked to a
300/1200 baud modem. "ATTD ...".
On 6/3/25 3:10 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
That's the reason many of us are so used to vi.
The customer always had that, at least.
Note : I actually REMOVE 'vi' and friends from my
boxes
so it won't even be TEMPTED to run :-)
On 04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did
have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
I think for office work word perfect was probably the best editor ever designed. Just smart enough and not too smart
Le 04-06-2025, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> a écrit :
On 04/06/2025 20:37, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did >>>> have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
Fuck that. Wordstar had been available on CP/M for ages, and was better
than vi.
So when it turned up on DOS everyone grabbed a pirate copy. 'joe'
emulates it these days for Linux
I don't know about the difference between wordstar and vi ages ago. I
have always used vim. Last time I checked joe is nowhere close to vim.
I don't know about the difference between wordstar and vi ages ago. I
have always used vim. Last time I checked joe is nowhere close to vim.
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 18:02:19 -0400, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 3:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 01:14:15 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Remember all the great IBM-PC/BIOS routines ?
Made it EASY to write full-screen editors. You had to have the
"Technical Reference Manual" to know all that stuff, however I did >>>> have that ....
And everyone felt compelled to write an editor...
GOOD !
There WERE a lot of them early in PC-dom ... some were simple, some
ambitious, some evolved into better things.
I suppose it was better than reading the Dragon book and deciding to write
a compiler.
On 6/5/25 7:08 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-05 01:06, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-04 22:21, rbowman wrote:
...
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming
books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it >>>>> followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
Borland Pascal (and Borland C I suppose) at some point came with a
set of libraries that allowed to create menu based text
applications, and one of the included objects was an editor, for at
least 65K of text.
I remember another set of libraries, that came with a thick book,
that included the libraries to create an editor. I don't remember
the name.
No Borland stuff yet when we got our PCs ... and
we couldn't afford anything but the MS/IBM FORTRAN
compiler for the stats people. So, I opened the
Tek Ref manual and wrote my EdLin-killer in MASM.
It was fun too :-)
No real internet back in '82 ... so you couldn't
download other people's solutions. The few BBS
systems were mostly Commodore/Atari stuff.
I did not have a phone in the 80's, so neither a modem. But I lived at
a student residence at Uni, so exchanging software via floppy was
trivial ;-)
Awwww ... you missed 300-baud comms !
Think "slow enough to actually read as it comes in" :-)
I remember even slower standards. Hey "state of the art"
way back then !
LONG back, I used to log into CompuServe (still exists)
for its own version of usenet (and it was good) using a
dumb terminal hooked to a 300/1200 baud modem. "ATTD ...".
I think the Compuserve Forums no longer exist. Too bad.
The Compuserve Forums were GREAT. Then the corp was
absorbed by AOL, then by Verizon ...... crap.
Another one that is badly missed are the BYTE-mag
forums. Extra-good for light to super-heavy tech.
Want a video terminal starting with chips and
resistors and solder ... that was where to go.
On 2025-06-06 06:24, c186282 wrote:
On 6/5/25 7:08 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-05 01:06, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:37 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-04 22:21, rbowman wrote:
...
The 'write an editor' think could be traced to the programming
books of
the day. They tended to use string handling in their examples and it >>>>>> followed 'Oh, I can write an editor'.
Borland Pascal (and Borland C I suppose) at some point came with a
set of libraries that allowed to create menu based text
applications, and one of the included objects was an editor, for at
least 65K of text.
I remember another set of libraries, that came with a thick book,
that included the libraries to create an editor. I don't remember
the name.
No Borland stuff yet when we got our PCs ... and
we couldn't afford anything but the MS/IBM FORTRAN
compiler for the stats people. So, I opened the
Tek Ref manual and wrote my EdLin-killer in MASM.
It was fun too :-)
No real internet back in '82 ... so you couldn't
download other people's solutions. The few BBS
systems were mostly Commodore/Atari stuff.
I did not have a phone in the 80's, so neither a modem. But I lived
at a student residence at Uni, so exchanging software via floppy was
trivial ;-)
Awwww ... you missed 300-baud comms !
Think "slow enough to actually read as it comes in" :-)
I think that on one visit home, the bank manager, learning what I was studying, gifted us with a modem for accessing an information system
being promoted by the authorities, and one of the services it had was accessing the bank. It was called "Infovía".
It had a small speed uplink, and a faster speed downlink. I don't
remember the figures, but could be 300/1200. Maybe less than 300?
I remember typing ASM programs that came with perhaps PC-Magazine
(ted.asm → ted.com). There were instructions for downloading it with a modem, but that would be an international phone call, even if I had a
modem and a phone of my own.
I think I wrote a wordstar "driver" for my printer. There was perhaps a program to do it. Or a menu option. It was better than the similar
driver it came with, but still had trouble calculating the exact page
size. It was a Star NL10 (I still have it). 9 pin.
On 6/5/25 7:15 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-06-05 10:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/06/2025 23:58, c186282 wrote:
On 6/4/25 4:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:47:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Umm ... are we talking WordSTAR or WordPERFECT here ?WordStar produced plain text files It was an editor.
It had a method to indicate underline, bold, double size... I don't
remember how. Hidden codes like ".XY"?
But then it had trouble calculating the page size. I believe I had to
force page jump earlier.
Word produced its own format - it was a primitive word processor
I've used both - indeed even WS on a Kaypro CP/M box -Word Perfect was in many ways Perfect...Just enough features to be
but WordPerfect was much better. The old boss still
used it for everything until he retired a few years
ago. Fortunately LibreOffice could at least READ WP
files (not sure if ever became able to write them).
useful to write letters and short documents on with an easy interface.
Indeed it was perfect. I could have complicated pages and it still got
the page size correct.
WS was "early". However it was GOOD for the times.
Whatever it was, you could probably get it done.
Note noisy dot-matrix printers were standard then.
The OkiData's were especially noisy - but ROBUST.
I think you can still buy those. Super-good for
multi-page invoice forms.
Ah ...
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