Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better,
eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed
but WILL eventually arrive.
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better,
eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed
but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and they don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is true the whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
The problem I see is already starting -- turning them into weapons and letting them run autonomously. One of the 'hello world' applications is training a NN on a huge number of labeled photos of cats and dogs and the models perform very well.
The metrics are sort of a truth table, with false negatives, false
positives, and correct identification. It's a stochastic process so you're looking at 'good enough', maybe 97%. Say I hate dogs, set up a camera in
the yard, and shoot all the dogs. A few dogs are going to slide and I'll
kill a few cats.
Now hand this to the military. The AI decides it sees a terrorist and a Reaper puts a Hellfire missile up his ass. You get a few school kids, but that's life.
The Israelis may already be doing something like that or maybe they just randomly kill people, who knows?
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better,
eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed
but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and they don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is true the whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
The problem I see is already starting -- turning them into weapons and letting them run autonomously. One of the 'hello world' applications is training a NN on a huge number of labeled photos of cats and dogs and the models perform very well.
The metrics are sort of a truth table, with false negatives, false
positives, and correct identification. It's a stochastic process so you're looking at 'good enough', maybe 97%. Say I hate dogs, set up a camera in
the yard, and shoot all the dogs. A few dogs are going to slide and I'll
kill a few cats.
Now hand this to the military. The AI decides it sees a terrorist and a Reaper puts a Hellfire missile up his ass. You get a few school kids, but that's life.
The Israelis may already be doing something like that or maybe they just randomly kill people, who knows?
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
On 2/13/25 2:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better,
eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed
but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and they >> don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is true the >> whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
Well, I agree about "CNNs" :-)
As for LLMs ... dunno. Get enough stuff going there and
something very hard, maybe impossible, to distinguish
from "someone in there" may be realized. Then what do
we do - ruthlessly pull the plug ?
The problem I see is already starting -- turning them into weapons and
letting them run autonomously. One of the 'hello world' applications is
training a NN on a huge number of labeled photos of cats and dogs and the
models perform very well.
NNs - kinda modeling real-life neurons - will eventually
result in "someone in there" ... maybe more recognizable
than anything the LLMs produce.
As for weapons - that's well in progress now, with China
ahead of the game according to various reports. Fully
autonomous weapons are game-changers. Just tell 'em to
"ID Enemy. KILL Enemy" is about all it'd take. In theory
such devices could be extremely fast, strong, accurate.
Remember the Hunter-Killer drones from "Terminator" -
that sort of thing (likely a bit smaller) and they would
NOT miss shots.
The metrics are sort of a truth table, with false negatives, false
positives, and correct identification. It's a stochastic process so you're >> looking at 'good enough', maybe 97%. Say I hate dogs, set up a camera in
the yard, and shoot all the dogs. A few dogs are going to slide and I'll
kill a few cats.
Oh well ... a few friendly-fire casualties are expected ...
Now hand this to the military. The AI decides it sees a terrorist and a
Reaper puts a Hellfire missile up his ass. You get a few school kids, but
that's life.
Yep. Some may freak about that, but that's how it goes.
It's doubly true for people like Hamas who kinda literally
stacked up babies as sandbags.
The Israelis may already be doing something like that or maybe they just
randomly kill people, who knows?
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
Oh, there ARE very very dark possibilities .....
Coming soon to a street near you.
As for 'Minority', they ARE training AIs to "identify
emotional states" from various cues. In theory the bots
will spot your malicious intent, perhaps before even you
realize you were feeling malicious. "The Computer Said So"
is all the justification The State needs ...
The "a few mistakes are OK" logic WILL be applied.
The "a few mistakes are OK" logic WILL be applied.
On 2/13/2025 2:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRynAK_A8ko
They did that in some country, and it always targeted immigrants. The AI
was judged racist, and the project shut down. It was hilarious! =D
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
They did that in some country, and it always targeted immigrants. The AI
was judged racist, and the project shut down. It was hilarious! =D
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 03:50:11 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
The "a few mistakes are OK" logic WILL be applied.
During my first exam with my current primary about 20 years ago she
offered a PSA test but explained that there are a lot of false positives
that scare the hell out of people. She would order the test if I wanted or
we could go the traditional route. I passed on the test.
At this point I've probably reached the status of men who die with, but
not from, prostate cancer.
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable condition.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025, [email protected] wrote:
On 2/13/25 2:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better,
eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a >>>> bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed >>>> but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and
they
don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is
true the
whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
Well, I agree about "CNNs" :-)
As for LLMs ... dunno. Get enough stuff going there and
something very hard, maybe impossible, to distinguish
from "someone in there" may be realized. Then what do
we do - ruthlessly pull the plug ?
Nope. Volition, will to live, drive, goals are completely missing. The
best trick to find out if you're talking with an AI is to write nothing.
A human will write "hello" after a few seconds. The AI will just sit
there waiting for input.
Yes... those things can be hardcoded, but what would make me impressed
is when spontaneous behaviour, motivation, will to live emerges on its
own, without being hard coded or simulated through logic.
Then we're talking AI!
D wrote:
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
They did that in some country, and it always targeted immigrants. The AI
was judged racist, and the project shut down. It was hilarious! =D
Well, of course it was shut down. Even though it was correct.
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:05:34 +0100, D wrote:
They did that in some country, and it always targeted immigrants. The AI
was judged racist, and the project shut down. It was hilarious! =D
Nothing new there. I've spent some time in southern Arizona near the
border. There a both fixed and floating checkpoints. Being a blonde (well
now white haired) blue eyed specimen I get waved through. If you're brown
you get the VIP treatment.
Being an old bearded man with a ponytail doesn't trigger cops anymore. 50 years ago being a young bearded man with a ponytail got you special attention.
On 2025-02-13, rbowman <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025 03:50:11 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
The "a few mistakes are OK" logic WILL be applied.
It's often sanitized with that lovely phrase "collateral damage".
During my first exam with my current primary about 20 years ago she
offered a PSA test but explained that there are a lot of false positives
that scare the hell out of people. She would order the test if I wanted or >> we could go the traditional route. I passed on the test.
I went the other way. I had been getting a DRE (digital rectal exam,
a.k.a. the finger) every year for 10 years with negative results.
My wife suggested a PSA, and I figured I could look at a number
without freaking out. The result came back 20 (where 4 is considered
cause for concern). I calmly asked for another test. It came out
the same, making it less likely it was a false positive. Next step
was a biopsy (8 on the Gleason scale), which led to a radical
prostatectomy. If I had opted for blissful ignorance I'd probably
be dead by now.
At this point I've probably reached the status of men who die with, but
not from, prostate cancer.
Me too - but I'm still watching my PSA. It started slowly creeping
up again, but a round of hormone therapy knocked it back down.
Gotta keep weeding the garden...
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.
On 2/13/25 5:36 PM, chrisv wrote:
D wrote:
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
They did that in some country, and it always targeted immigrants. The AI >>> was judged racist, and the project shut down. It was hilarious! =D
Well, of course it was shut down. Even though it was correct.
Well ... they keep talking about "fixing" the cultural
conclusions the AIs draw - e-Brainwashing to avoid any
inconvenient truths ......
On many, broader, levels this does NOT bode well. If
yer 'intelligence' isn't Wokie/PC then you murder it.
On 2/13/25 9:54 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable condition. >>
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill me
first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
These "tests" ... mostly seem to be designed to
generate income from more and more tests and
'treatments' ........
In my experience, the people who stay furthest
away from Modern Med live the longest and best.
On 2/13/25 4:07 PM, D wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025, [email protected] wrote:
On 2/13/25 2:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better, >>>>> eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed >>>>> but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and
they
don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is true >>>> the
whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
Well, I agree about "CNNs" :-)
As for LLMs ... dunno. Get enough stuff going there and
something very hard, maybe impossible, to distinguish
from "someone in there" may be realized. Then what do
we do - ruthlessly pull the plug ?
Nope. Volition, will to live, drive, goals are completely missing. The best >> trick to find out if you're talking with an AI is to write nothing. A human >> will write "hello" after a few seconds. The AI will just sit there waiting >> for input.
Yes... those things can be hardcoded, but what would make me impressed is
when spontaneous behaviour, motivation, will to live emerges on its own,
without being hard coded or simulated through logic.
Then we're talking AI!
I am not beyond thinking LLMs will eventually, maybe
kinda soon, exhibit 'conscious', 'self-realized'
intelligence. The complexity increases apace. At
SOME point ..........
But how do we KNOW and what do we DO about it ?
Those are the HARD questions.
NNs seem MORE likely to yield 'consciousness', but
that's a few years along. But, once again, if we
realize there's "someone in there" what do we DO ?
IMHO - you make them a citizen. Let 'em run for
office and such.
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, [email protected] wrote:
On 2/13/25 4:07 PM, D wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2025, [email protected] wrote:
On 2/13/25 2:10 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:58:30 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Neural networks can likely do "someone in there" even better, >>>>>> eventually. At the moment LLMs get most of the funding so NNs are a
bit behind the curve. New/better hardware and paradigms are needed
but WILL eventually arrive.
So far there is nobody in there for CNNs. You know all the pieces and >>>>> they
don't magically start breathing when you put them together. It is true >>>>> the
whole system is a bit of a black box but it is describable.
Well, I agree about "CNNs" :-)
As for LLMs ... dunno. Get enough stuff going there and
something very hard, maybe impossible, to distinguish
from "someone in there" may be realized. Then what do
we do - ruthlessly pull the plug ?
Nope. Volition, will to live, drive, goals are completely missing. The best >>> trick to find out if you're talking with an AI is to write nothing. A human >>> will write "hello" after a few seconds. The AI will just sit there waiting >>> for input.
Yes... those things can be hardcoded, but what would make me impressed is >>> when spontaneous behaviour, motivation, will to live emerges on its own, >>> without being hard coded or simulated through logic.
Then we're talking AI!
I am not beyond thinking LLMs will eventually, maybe
kinda soon, exhibit 'conscious', 'self-realized'
intelligence. The complexity increases apace. At
SOME point ..........
I do not things LLMs will reach consciousness, looking at the technology, training data and how they work. I see them as a potential "language
center" of the brain of a AGI.
But how do we KNOW and what do we DO about it ?
We look at the effects. That's all we can do.
Those are the HARD questions.
Yes! Let me welcome you to alt.philosophy! =) Hard and interesting
questions!
On 2/13/25 9:54 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill
me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
These "tests" ... mostly seem to be designed to
generate income from more and more tests and
'treatments' ........
In my experience, the people who stay furthest
away from Modern Med live the longest and best.
I am not beyond thinking LLMs will eventually, maybeEven politicians have achieved a reasonable simulacrum of this.
kinda soon, exhibit 'conscious', 'self-realized'
intelligence.
I find it funny that in every era, once you hit a certain level of
power, it seems the dream of immortality keeps coming back. Chinese
emeperors did it, and our dear billionaires are now doing it to.
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill
me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
You are a tough cookie! =)
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scareNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
you? 😉
...
Now hand this to the military. The AI decides it sees a terrorist and a Reaper puts a Hellfire missile up his ass. You get a few school kids, but that's life.
The Israelis may already be doing something like that or maybe they just randomly kill people, who knows?
Give AI enhanced facial recognition to the cops -- won't that be fun.
Enter 'Minority Report'.
On 14/02/2025 08:45, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill me >>> first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
You are a tough cookie! =)
Maybe. Or maybe it is simple chance. The thing is once you are on the NHS radar for anything they start looking at you and when they do that, they find stuff.
Sometime around 2012 my GP muttered something about 'your white blood cell count is too high'...
...Last year my more conscientious lady GP packed me off to haematology to find out why, and they diagnosed a very slow rare leukemia. In a very early stage. Well it's been like that for ten years or more and hasn't gotten much worse...
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scare you? >> 😉Not quite as much as Elon Musk...
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scareNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
you? 😉
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an
enemy. ;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:45, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to
kill me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
You are a tough cookie! =)
Maybe. Or maybe it is simple chance. The thing is once you are on the
NHS radar for anything they start looking at you and when they do
that, they find stuff.
Sometime around 2012 my GP muttered something about 'your white blood
cell count is too high'...
...Last year my more conscientious lady GP packed me off to
haematology to find out why, and they diagnosed a very slow rare
leukemia. In a very early stage. Well it's been like that for ten
years or more and hasn't gotten much worse...
Maybe that is, like in a classic simpsons episode, what keeps all other deseases at bay? ;)
On 2/14/25 5:45 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:45, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to
kill me first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
You are a tough cookie! =)
Maybe. Or maybe it is simple chance. The thing is once you are on the
NHS radar for anything they start looking at you and when they do
that, they find stuff.
Sometime around 2012 my GP muttered something about 'your white blood
cell count is too high'...
...Last year my more conscientious lady GP packed me off to
haematology to find out why, and they diagnosed a very slow rare
leukemia. In a very early stage. Well it's been like that for ten
years or more and hasn't gotten much worse...
Right now they're making more money with you than save money killing you
with something. Something sugar packed and gooey your Mom raised you
with, or cutting the bullshit and placing the ventilator on your face
and stopping the flow of air after you pass out by injected med, you
know, like what they did with Relf.
Your people treat you like you Nazis treated them :)
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scareNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
you? 😉
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an
enemy. ;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
On 2/14/25 4:51 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scareNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
you? 😉
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an enemy. >> ;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
Elon IS mostly a Good Guy. He's also WAY
successful enough to where he doesn't have
to obsess about money or power. Rare case.
As for his "limited life-span", well, we'll
see what cyberization tech provides a few
years on eh ? :-)
Hmmm ... 'e-Lon' forever ?
On 14/02/2025 21:51, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does that scareNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
you? 😉
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an enemy. >> ;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
Sadly far longer than mine unless some public spirited citizen gets him first.
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small, contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage. Heading for N Korean status.
On 14/02/2025 21:50, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:45, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 00:24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Please, guys, if you're over 50, get a PSA test.Every time I have a test they come up with yet another incurable
condition.
If I were a gambling man, I'd take bets on which one is going to kill me >>>>> first
And yet, I seem to be still here...
You are a tough cookie! =)
Maybe. Or maybe it is simple chance. The thing is once you are on the NHS >>> radar for anything they start looking at you and when they do that, they >>> find stuff.
Sometime around 2012 my GP muttered something about 'your white blood cell >>> count is too high'...
...Last year my more conscientious lady GP packed me off to haematology to >>> find out why, and they diagnosed a very slow rare leukemia. In a very
early stage. Well it's been like that for ten years or more and hasn't
gotten much worse...
Maybe that is, like in a classic simpsons episode, what keeps all other
deseases at bay? ;)
Well it isn't doing a very good job then.
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an enemy.
;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
The thing is, you don't reach that level of success without obsessing over money and power. It is a small internal psychological complex that was created in childhood, and propels the individual forward all his life. It
is close to impossible to change this allconsuming drive yourself. You
need deep psychological inspection if you want to change it in order to
take it easy and enjoy life. Billionaires, for all their money and wealth, tend to work until they die. They know no other life.
When my mother died she asked me not to become like that, but to remember
to enjoy life. I try to, sometimes I do succeed. ;) My wife forces me to travel, so I do work outside, in the sun for a couple of months per year.
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage.
Heading for N Korean status.
On 2025-02-15, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage.
Heading for N Korean status.
Sadly, that is the Truth. And it is terrifying to watch from within.
But I am surprised to hear that from you. I thought you would
like his libertarian soke screen?
On 15/02/2025 15:01, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2025-02-15, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage.
Heading for N Korean status.
Sadly, that is the Truth. And it is terrifying to watch from within.
But I am surprised to hear that from you. I thought you would
like his libertarian soke screen?
I am a total libertarian. I agree strongly with his *avowed* stance on
free speech, wokery, asian immigration, and pseudo solutions to the
climate change bogey man. If applied in the USA.
But whether he believes any of it at all, is open to question.
And he has no right, other than 'because I can' to piss all over
Ukraine, Gaza, Canada, Europe, Britain and of course Greenland at the
same time as saying that he isn't interested in other countries at all
and is solely working for the USA.
In fact at this point in time he appears to be working for Russia.
If he wants to isolate the USA and stand alone when China attacks, that
is his prerogative. The USA has all it needs to survive alone. Just poorer.
But as we have learnt with Putin, it now seems that any international
treaty that a nation signs up to with the USA will be reneged upon as
soon as it suits America.
People will take their business out of dollars and put it in sterling or
the Euro. Dealings with the USA will be strictly cash up front. They
will think twice about buying US military kit that comes with a 'does
not work in Russia' sticker on it. They will avoid Boeing altogether
after yet another debacle ...
The transition from ally to fair weather friend, only when it suits
Trump, will result in loss of airbases all over Europe and the
impossibility of carrying out middle eastern Air strikes. What's that?
but we have signed contracts for the leases? We have! but it seems that defence contracts signed with the USA are no longer fit to wipe your
bottom on.
Another 911? Of course British intelligence will know about it, but the
USA doesn't need British intelligence does it? Or Canadian, Australian...
No man is an island. Nor is any country.
Yer Grand Fart has a bit to learn.
But he can always run away to Russia, who it is alleged have all the
goods on him they need.
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage.
Heading for N Korean status.
Sadly, that is the Truth. And it is terrifying to watch from within.
But I am surprised to hear that from you. I thought you would
like his libertarian smoke screen?
I am a total libertarian. I agree strongly with his *avowed* stance on
free speech, wokery, asian immigration, and pseudo solutions to the
climate change bogey man. If applied in the USA.
But whether he believes any of it at all, is open to question.
And he has no right, other than 'because I can' to piss all over
Ukraine, Gaza, Canada, Europe, Britain and of course Greenland at the
same time as saying that he isn't interested in other countries at all
and is solely working for the USA.
In fact at this point in time he appears to be working for Russia.
If he wants to isolate the USA and stand alone when China attacks, that
is his prerogative. The USA has all it needs to survive alone. Just poorer.
But as we have learnt with Putin, it now seems that any international
treaty that a nation signs up to with the USA will be reneged upon as
soon as it suits America.
People will take their business out of dollars and put it in sterling or
the Euro. Dealings with the USA will be strictly cash up front. They
will think twice about buying US military kit that comes with a 'does
not work in Russia' sticker on it. They will avoid Boeing altogether
after yet another debacle ...
The transition from ally to fair weather friend, only when it suits
Trump, will result in loss of airbases all over Europe and the
impossibility of carrying out middle eastern Air strikes. What's that?
but we have signed contracts for the leases? We have! but it seems that defence contracts signed with the USA are no longer fit to wipe your
bottom on.
Another 911? Of course British intelligence will know about it, but the
USA doesn't need British intelligence does it? Or Canadian, Australian...
No man is an island. Nor is any country.
Yer Grand Fart has a bit to learn.
But he can always run away to Russia, who it is alleged have all the
goods on him they need.
The transition from ally to fair weather friend, only when it suits
Trump, will result in loss of airbases all over Europe and the
impossibility of carrying out middle eastern Air strikes.
Another 911?
Of course British intelligence will know about it, but the
USA doesn't need British intelligence does it? Or Canadian, Australian...
No man is an island. Nor is any country.
On 2025-02-15, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:
On 15/02/2025 15:01, Lars Poulsen wrote:It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage.
Heading for N Korean status.
On 2025-02-15, The Natural Philosopher <[email protected]d> wrote:Sadly, that is the Truth. And it is terrifying to watch from within.
But I am surprised to hear that from you. I thought you would
like his libertarian smoke screen?
I am a total libertarian. I agree strongly with his *avowed* stance on
free speech, wokery, asian immigration, and pseudo solutions to the
climate change bogey man. If applied in the USA.
But whether he believes any of it at all, is open to question.
I am relieved to hear that and I share our contempt for hyprocricy in leaders. In my book, a proven hypocrite can no longer be trusted.
In fact, at this time he is being lead around by far smarter people.
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
In fact, at this time he is being lead around by far smarter people.
At least they are smart and working for a better America. Far better
than the radical leftist assholes who were leading-around Biden.
That fscking creep called people "white supremacists" for voting
Republican. That fscking creep censored free speech. That fscking
creep opened our borders to the dregs of the Earth. That fscking
creep sought to make our country weak while China laughs and builds
hundreds of more coal plants. That fscking creep advocated for the castration and mutilation of confused children.
I could go on.
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
In fact, at this time he is being lead around by far smarter people.
At least they are smart and working for a better America. Far better
than the radical leftist assholes who were leading-around Biden.
That fscking creep called people "white supremacists" for voting
Republican. That fscking creep censored free speech. That fscking
creep opened our borders to the dregs of the Earth. That fscking
creep sought to make our country weak while China laughs and builds
hundreds of more coal plants. That fscking creep advocated for the castration and mutilation of confused children.
I could go on.
On Sat, 15 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 21:51, D wrote:
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2025 08:50, D wrote:
That is one option. An immortal, all knowing citizen. Does thatNot quite as much as Elon Musk...
scare you? 😉
I think Elon is quite a nice guy as long as he doesn't see you as an
enemy. ;) And you can always take comfort in his limited life span. ;)
Sadly far longer than mine unless some public spirited citizen gets
him first.
It is amazing how fast Trump et al are Making America Small,
contemptible and entirely without honour on the world stage. Heading
for N Korean status.
I think they have been doing a great job so far! Delivering exactly what
they promised they were going to deliver. I'd much rather live in the US
at the moment, than in sweden or eastern europe.
It was hilarious how Vance exposed sweden as a country that cherishes
moslem extremists and throw sane and rational people into prison. Let it
be known, that Vance critique of sweden, that there is limited freedom
of speech there, was 100% correct. Let no mainstream media tell you otherwise.
With Trump v1 I hoped Australia's eternal arse kissing of America
might become at least a bit less blind. Nope, still with 'em all
the way. Same this time no doubt - Australian intelligence agencies
will be the last ones to stop sharing every little scrap of info
they get on anyone to the USA where they officially don't give a
stuff about the rights of any Australian. Trump will keep the deal
to sell us nuclear subs going, but that won't actually happen until
after he's long gone anyway (out of office, and probably also died
of old age by then).
moslem extremists and throw sane and rational people into prison. Let it be >> known, that Vance critique of sweden, that there is limited freedom of
speech there, was 100% correct. Let no mainstream media tell you otherwise.
By all the Euro news, Vance just FREAKED THEM OUT - by
daring to tell the Truth.
No 1st Amendment in the EU - you say what they ALLOW you
to say or it's literal thought-crime. "Democracy", no
longer much of a consideration - just rhetoric and
appearances ......
Tragic.
Oh well, in any case, there's no longer any pretense
about the USA being able to carry the EU on its back.
1950s/60s yea, NOW, Hell No !
What's all this to Linux ? Probably nothing. Oh well,
threads "drift" ....
Is it true what I read in the newspaper from my little corner of the world, that
australia is turning into a surveillance state?
Sweden is also turning into a surveillance state as well, so maybe this is a new
global trend that caught on after corona?
D wrote:
Is it true what I read in the newspaper from my little corner of the world, that
australia is turning into a surveillance state?
Sweden is also turning into a surveillance state as well, so maybe this is a new
global trend that caught on after corona?
Same for the UK. In recent news:
"UK: Encryption order threatens global privacy rights
The United Kingdom government’s order to Apple to allow security authorities access to encrypted cloud data severely harms the privacy
rights of users in the UK and worldwide, Amnesty International and
Human Rights Watch said today."
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/02/uk-encryption-order-threatens-global-privacy-rights/
chrisv <[email protected]d> wrote:
D wrote:
Is it true what I read in the newspaper from my little corner of the world, >>> that australia is turning into a surveillance state?
Sweden is also turning into a surveillance state as well, so maybe this is >>> a new global trend that caught on after corona?
Same for the UK. In recent news:
"UK: Encryption order threatens global privacy rights
The United Kingdom government's order to Apple to allow security
authorities access to encrypted cloud data severely harms the privacy
rights of users in the UK and worldwide, Amnesty International and
Human Rights Watch said today."
<https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/02/uk-encryption-order-threatens-global-privacy-rights/>
IMO we in the UK are going along with that as proxy for the Merkins,
their TLAs being precluded from spying directly on their own citizens.
It's well known that the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc. have a hot line to GCHQ
and info is regularly shared both ways as a matter of course. Ditto
with the whole Five* Eyes surveillance group.
* - or however many it is these days.
chrisv wrote:
"UK: Encryption order threatens global privacy rights
The United Kingdom government�s order to Apple to allow security
authorities access to encrypted cloud data severely harms the privacy
rights of users in the UK and worldwide, Amnesty International and
Human Rights Watch said today."
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/02/uk-encryption-order-threatens-global-privacy-rights/
Apple would probably be better off simply removing itself from the UK
market. I'm sure it would hurt, but it is a smarter move than
compromising its software globally.
On Fri, 14 Feb 2025, [email protected] wrote:
On many, broader, levels this does NOT bode well. If
yer 'intelligence' isn't Wokie/PC then you murder it.
This has always been the modus operandi of the sinisted left. If someone
does not agree, kill or send to siberia.
Learn? He won't ever.
In fact, at this time he is being lead around by far smarter people.
You can see it in his face. Even Musk's kid dissed him.
But he can always run away to Russia, who it is alleged have all theTrump being gone would be nice (nice not to see his face and hear his drivel), but he's merely a symbol at this point, in my opinion.
goods on him they need.
Anyway, I agree with most of what you say, though much much more could
be said.
I'm convinced that hypocrisy is a direct bi-product of democracy,
and leading a democracy demonstrates someone's true mastry of
hypocrisy as an art form, above any other skill they may posess.
Unfortunately Trump doesn't seem to possess very many other skills.
Deeply tragic! Europe has lost its soul. I think the peak was probably
around 1890 to 1910 or something like that. Then the center of the world shifted left to the US after the wars, and europe started to die.
On Sat, 16 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
With Trump v1 I hoped Australia's eternal arse kissing of America
might become at least a bit less blind. Nope, still with 'em all
the way. Same this time no doubt - Australian intelligence agencies
will be the last ones to stop sharing every little scrap of info
they get on anyone to the USA where they officially don't give a
stuff about the rights of any Australian. Trump will keep the deal
to sell us nuclear subs going, but that won't actually happen until
after he's long gone anyway (out of office, and probably also died
of old age by then).
Is it true what I read in the newspaper from my little corner of the world, that
australia is turning into a surveillance state?
Sweden is also turning into a surveillance state as well, so maybe this is a new
global trend that caught on after corona?
On Sun, 16 Feb 2025, Sn!pe wrote:
IMO we in the UK are going along with that as proxy for the Merkins,
their TLAs being precluded from spying directly on their own citizens.
It's well known that the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc. have a hot line to GCHQ
and info is regularly shared both ways as a matter of course. Ditto
with the whole Five* Eyes surveillance group.
* - or however many it is these days.
This is the truth! A very convenient way to game the system. I would vote against it, if I could, and if I were not against voting. ;)
In comp.os.linux.misc D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2025, Sn!pe wrote:
IMO we in the UK are going along with that as proxy for the Merkins,
their TLAs being precluded from spying directly on their own citizens.
It's well known that the NSA, CIA, DHS, etc. have a hot line to GCHQ
and info is regularly shared both ways as a matter of course. Ditto
with the whole Five* Eyes surveillance group.
* - or however many it is these days.
This is the truth! A very convenient way to game the system. I would vote
against it, if I could, and if I were not against voting. ;)
I've been voting against it for years in Aus. Annoyingly at the
last federal election the rules for political parties were changed
which meant the parties most opposed to such things were all too
small to be included, so I couldn't even vote for them anymore!
What's the good of democracy if you can't even con yourself into
thinking you're doing something to oppose things you don't want
the government to do by voting against them? No wonder fringe
groups are getting more radical if democracy here won't even let
them in anymore.
It's enough to make me want to move, but to where? To where?
Certainly not to the USA, they're worse again.
I am 100% certain that australia has chinese sleeper agents everywhere
in the government. They know the encryption keys and the weaknesses of
the systems and are just biding their time for when an issue important
enough comes up, in order to activate them.
In comp.os.linux.misc D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
With Trump v1 I hoped Australia's eternal arse kissing of America
might become at least a bit less blind. Nope, still with 'em all
the way. Same this time no doubt - Australian intelligence agencies
will be the last ones to stop sharing every little scrap of info
they get on anyone to the USA where they officially don't give a
stuff about the rights of any Australian. Trump will keep the deal
to sell us nuclear subs going, but that won't actually happen until
after he's long gone anyway (out of office, and probably also died
of old age by then).
Is it true what I read in the newspaper from my little corner of the world, that
australia is turning into a surveillance state?
Sweden is also turning into a surveillance state as well, so maybe this is a new
global trend that caught on after corona?
It pre-dates corona. Really the USA started it, I'm not sure what
exactly their legal basis is but somehow they can compel any tech
company there to give them a backdoor (see Snowden leaks (which
include showing the co-operation of Apple), Lavabit, etc.) and
later in the 2010s compelled its allies to enact laws permitting
the same thing there.
I'm just waiting to hear about a data leak from one of these
intelligence agencies. I'll bet it's already happened, what with
Snowden being able to share the NSA's internal documents with the
media, how many similar guys sold the actual collected data to
criminals or enemy govs? But for that to be revealed publicly
someone would have to find out from the criminals or the enemy
gov. The NSA (or foreign equivalent) will obviously never admit
to something like that happening, possibly not even to their own
government.
I've been voting against it for years in Aus. Annoyingly at the
last federal election the rules for political parties were changed
which meant the parties most opposed to such things were all too
small to be included, so I couldn't even vote for them anymore!
What's the good of democracy if you can't even con yourself into
thinking you're doing something to oppose things you don't want
the government to do by voting against them? No wonder fringe
groups are getting more radical if democracy here won't even let
them in anymore.
It's enough to make me want to move, but to where? To where?
Certainly not to the USA, they're worse again.
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
I've been voting against it for years in Aus. Annoyingly at the
last federal election the rules for political parties were changed
which meant the parties most opposed to such things were all too
small to be included, so I couldn't even vote for them anymore!
What's the good of democracy if you can't even con yourself into
thinking you're doing something to oppose things you don't want
the government to do by voting against them? No wonder fringe
groups are getting more radical if democracy here won't even let
them in anymore.
Yeah, I've been wondering if the supression in Germany against AfD in
Germany won't backlash. The evil fsckers (the liberal suppressors,
that is).
It's enough to make me want to move, but to where? To where?
Certainly not to the USA, they're worse again.
I think we're better-off than most, in the West. We're not getting
thrown in jail for "mean" social media posts, for example.
With corona, china also became very influential when it came to spreading
its views on privacy and government intervention in the world. Not very >surprisingly, all western politicians cheered and proceeded with
abolishing all checks on their power, seeing that perhaps their wet dream
of never again having to have an election might come true.
I am 100% certain that australia has chinese sleeper agents everywhere in
the government. They know the encryption keys and the weaknesses of the >systems and are just biding their time for when an issue important enough >comes up, in order to activate them.
It's enough to make me want to move, but to where? To where?
Certainly not to the USA, they're worse again.
Red, rural and bible-thumping US. It is my belief, that if you stick to
rural areas in the US, the surveillance will be a minimum. Other areas
I've considered are switzerland (the southern italien part),
liechtenstein, the channel islands, the isle of man.
If you are of a socialist bent, iceland could also be a small, more or
less forgotten place, in the middle of nowhere. =)
On 17/02/2025 12:45, D wrote:
I am 100% certain that australia has chinese sleeper agents everywhere in
the government. They know the encryption keys and the weaknesses of the
systems and are just biding their time for when an issue important enough
comes up, in order to activate them.
Well if USA foreign policy isn't being run from Moscow, it sure looks that way...
On Sun, 17 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
It's enough to make me want to move, but to where? To where?
Certainly not to the USA, they're worse again.
On 2025-02-17, D <[email protected]> wrote:
Red, rural and bible-thumping US. It is my belief, that if you stick to
rural areas in the US, the surveillance will be a minimum. Other areas
I've considered are switzerland (the southern italien part),
liechtenstein, the channel islands, the isle of man.
If you are of a socialist bent, iceland could also be a small, more or
less forgotten place, in the middle of nowhere. =)
But will Iceland grant you residency?
Iceland is in Schengen, so you can visit (it's a "domestic flight" from Frankfurt or Copenhagen). And a bit of Googling teaches me that EU and
EFTA citizens can live in Iceland without a visa.
Non-EU, non-Scandinavians ... not so easy.
On Sun, 17 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
I'm just waiting to hear about a data leak from one of these
intelligence agencies. I'll bet it's already happened, what with
Snowden being able to share the NSA's internal documents with the
media, how many similar guys sold the actual collected data to
criminals or enemy govs? But for that to be revealed publicly
someone would have to find out from the criminals or the enemy
gov. The NSA (or foreign equivalent) will obviously never admit
to something like that happening, possibly not even to their own
government.
I am 100% certain that australia has chinese sleeper agents everywhere in
the government. They know the encryption keys and the weaknesses of the systems and are just biding their time for when an issue important enough comes up, in order to activate them.
Red, rural and bible-thumping US. It is my belief, that if you stick to
rural areas in the US, the surveillance will be a minimum. Other areas
I've considered are switzerland (the southern italien part),
liechtenstein, the channel islands, the isle of man.
If you are of a socialist bent, iceland could also be a small, more or
less forgotten place, in the middle of nowhere. =)
But will Iceland grant you residency?
Iceland is in Schengen, so you can visit (it's a "domestic flight" from
Frankfurt or Copenhagen). And a bit of Googling teaches me that EU and
EFTA citizens can live in Iceland without a visa.
Non-EU, non-Scandinavians ... not so easy.
Not only is there Schengen, there is also a nordic treaty which name
escapes me for the moment, which makes it super easy for scandinavians to move around, and it also covers iceland I think. I do know plenty of icelanders move to scandinavia since they are bored with iceland.
Hmm, yes, could be more difficult, but since you are danish by birth, and perhaps still have your citizenship, I think it should be pretty easy for
you to relocate to iceland. For your daughter... difficult to say.
D <[email protected]> wrote:
Hmm, yes, could be more difficult, but since you are danish by birth, and
perhaps still have your citizenship, I think it should be pretty easy for
you to relocate to iceland. For your daughter... difficult to say.
My ex-wife is Danish, I am British. When we were first married she
looked into taking dual nationality. Although the UK permits that,
Denmark did not so she retained her Danish nationality and remained
in England on a spousal visa.
In comp.os.linux.misc D <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2025, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
I'm just waiting to hear about a data leak from one of these
intelligence agencies. I'll bet it's already happened, what with
Snowden being able to share the NSA's internal documents with the
media, how many similar guys sold the actual collected data to
criminals or enemy govs? But for that to be revealed publicly
someone would have to find out from the criminals or the enemy
gov. The NSA (or foreign equivalent) will obviously never admit
to something like that happening, possibly not even to their own
government.
I am 100% certain that australia has chinese sleeper agents everywhere in
the government. They know the encryption keys and the weaknesses of the
systems and are just biding their time for when an issue important enough
comes up, in order to activate them.
Until very recently the Chinese were the ones who had _built_ the
systems. There's an ongoing program of replacing things like
security camera systems in government buildings and around civil infrastructure which were all bought from the Chinese. Our dopy
politicians somehow didn't notice the problem until China started
banning our exports and we suddenly remembered that they were the
same country our military was designed to defend us against.
As you suggest, the Chinese are probably way ahead of all that
anyway.
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